Arriva Pulls Out of Porthmadog

[GusB]

Either that or areas get cut off. Anyway this is only a doomsday scenario if no one takes over abandoned bus routes . It's just west of Porthmadog that's in doubt when Arriva quits the 3/3B route.

Areas getting cut off is not news, sadly. If there aren't enough bums on seats, the route doesn't pay its way and it becomes unviable to run it. There's no getting away from the commercial reality, and that applies regardless of the model of ownership.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Either that or areas get cut off. Anyway this is only a doomsday scenario if no one takes over abandoned bus routes . It's just west of Porthmadog that's in doubt when Arriva quits the 3/3B route.

When Arriva pulled out of the South Cambrian area, the gap was filled by Lloyds Coaches and Mid Wales. West of Porthmadog, I can't see why it wouldn't it Caelloi who already operate most of the route?

 

[tbtc]

I've said before.... If this were First, people would be running around as if their hair was on fire

To back up what you are saying, on the "rail" side of the Forum there were recently two threads about Open Access operations being suspended due to new Covid rules - the one about Hull Trains (First) was full of angry people complaining about the apparently greedy operator abandoning passengers - the one about Grand Central (Arriva) was more like a shrug of the shoulders and understandable statements about the practicalities - First do seem to attract a lot more criticism (or Arriva are better at flying under the radar when it comes to making cuts)

 

[markymark2000]

Either that or areas get cut off. Anyway this is only a doomsday scenario if no one takes over abandoned bus routes . It's just west of Porthmadog that's in doubt when Arriva quits the 3/3B route.

I think it would depend on how Arriva ran down the network.

If Arriva were to up and leave, it would be the same or very similar to when GHA went bust. Companies from all over pick and choose the routes that are close to them and jump on that. Other areas then just get left to their own devices.

If however they dropped by depot, companies would jump on more routes as they would have a bit of time to find buses.
Bangor has a few independents who are quick to jump on routes.
Llandudno (I know it's an outstation but it's one where if Bangor got dropped, it could become an outstation of Rhyl since the depot is pretty self contained), Alpine could jump back onto buses and I think they would do so for the 3 local routes 25/26/
Rhyl doesn't really have anyone else close by, could be an issue.
Chester has had roumers for years and I think Stagecoach are pretty much ready to pounce (resource dependant) on the area if Arriva came off. Getting 25 buses and drivers available could be difficult unless there is prior notice given so perhaps some slight reductions temporarily. No other operators around the Chester depot who actually want commercial work so that's a difficult one.
Wrexham depot would have been excellent a few years back as DJones would have had everything but otherwise, down to the few independents.


What needs to be remembered is that there isn't mega money in North Wales. It's a lot of pass users and the Wales reimbursement isn't great and support from the councils is dismal. Even now, while councils are getting support, Flintshire Council is removing support from a service (one that's used by plenty of school students who have no alternative bus I should add). Anyone running buses in North Wales would be in for a right shock as just how poor the support is. I don't think any of the big companies making a North Wales subsidiary would remain in place for long without huge advertising campaigns and a huge partnership with councils to improve the operating environment.

 

[Robertj21a]

Not sure why anybody thinks that any of the big bus operators would be interested in N Wales. If Arriva pull out it will be up to small independents and council subsidies to replace whatever is still needed.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There's quite a difference between bits of North Wales.

Places like Rhyl and Llandudno are still worthwhile places to run buses and are not markedly different from a lot of places in the country. Arriva is still the dominant operator on that coastal strip and they'll still make money running services around Colwyn Bay and along the Deeside corridor. Places that were able to justify fleets of new deckers not that long ago.
In Bangor, there's possibly a bigger question mark but there's still the main route from Caernarfon through to Llandudno, and some other half decent routes to Holyhead and Bethesda.

It's once you get to the more sparsely populated areas. To be fair, you've always had small firms, such as Clynnog, Caelloi still going, but also firms like Purple Motors, Express and Silver Star who have disappeared but have often been succeeded by firms like John's and Berwyn.

Exiting Pwllheli is really just cutting a small operation that is geographically distant from the existing operations.

 

[markymark2000]

There's quite a difference between bits of North Wales.

Places like Rhyl and Llandudno are still worthwhile places to run buses and are not markedly different from a lot of places in the country. Arriva is still the dominant operator on that coastal strip and they'll still make money running services around Colwyn Bay and along the Deeside corridor. Places that were able to justify fleets of new deckers not that long ago.
In Bangor, there's possibly a bigger question mark but there's still the main route from Caernarfon through to Llandudno, and some other half decent routes to Holyhead and Bethesda.

It's once you get to the more sparsely populated areas. To be fair, you've always had small firms, such as Clynnog, Caelloi still going, but also firms like Purple Motors, Express and Silver Star who have disappeared but have often been succeeded by firms like John's and Berwyn.

Exiting Pwllheli is really just cutting a small operation that is geographically distant from the existing operations.

Most of the Wales ops rely on the profits from the core routes to subsidise the local routes. The core routes though are variable and depend on things like tourists in the summer. Wales isn't like operating in other areas (for an operator), the overall margin is much lower and while yes some expenditure is justified, you can see by how much Arriva has cut back in recent years that the profits just aren't as good as they once were. I think it takes a special kind of operator to run Wales ops successfully. You have to be very focussed on making the price fair for locals (while also capitalising on the tourist trade), You need to run things locally, not nationally (helps customer service and thus keep existing passengers) you need a lot of publicity to win passengers onto the buses and you have to invest a lot of money into making the operations look appealing. You can't just plod on as things are (like Arriva are) as the whole of Wales is just a managed decline right now. There is a lack of will to even try and get people onto the buses. Funding isn't there and the commercial risks are gone. Plod on and cut back services (and in Arrivas case, if you don't like a route, kill off the demand so then no one else jumps on it).

I fully agree with you on the last comment though about Pwllehli. I think it may signal further reviews and reductions though. I think this is signalled by how Arriva has dealt with Covid (shutting down to a skeleton service overnight whereas other companies didn't run things down as much and at kept early morning/late evening trips to try and keep key workers moving (Arriva didn't care and cut back to a skeleton daytime only service). Even now that funding is available, Arriva are only on 1/2 service daytime and minimal evening but other companies are running much more.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Most of the Wales ops rely on the profits from the core routes to subsidise the local routes. The core routes though are variable and depend on things like tourists in the summer. Wales isn't like operating in other areas (for an operator), the overall margin is much lower and while yes some expenditure is justified, you can see by how much Arriva has cut back in recent years that the profits just aren't as good as they once were. I think it takes a special kind of operator to run Wales ops successfully. You have to be very focussed on making the price fair for locals (while also capitalising on the tourist trade), You need to run things locally, not nationally (helps customer service and thus keep existing passengers) you need a lot of publicity to win passengers onto the buses and you have to invest a lot of money into making the operations look appealing. You can't just plod on as things are (like Arriva are) as the whole of Wales is just a managed decline right now. There is a lack of will to even try and get people onto the buses. Funding isn't there and the commercial risks are gone. Plod on and cut back services (and in Arrivas case, if you don't like a route, kill off the demand so then no one else jumps on it).

I fully agree with you on the last comment though about Pwllehli. I think it may signal further reviews and reductions though. I think this is signalled by how Arriva has dealt with Covid (shutting down to a skeleton service overnight whereas other companies didn't run things down as much and at kept early morning/late evening trips to try and keep key workers moving (Arriva didn't care and cut back to a skeleton daytime only service). Even now that funding is available, Arriva are only on 1/2 service daytime and minimal evening but other companies are running much more.

There is an element of tourist trade on the North Wales coast routes but as tourism has decreased since the 1960s, so has it's importance to bus traffic. Certainly, there are areas like Pensarn where you still have tourist trade but a wander round Rhyl and Prestatyn shows that it's guest houses are not tourist based. Away from there, you also have places like Connahs Quay, Mold and Wrexham that I'd struggle to suggest that there's any tourist trade!! However, the core routes are (or were prior to March) still pretty strong and even in places like Colwyn Bay and Wrexham, there are still routes that are good enough to more than pay their way.

The issue with Arriva and DB, as I see it, has been along the lines as you suggest. There is a great rush to huge monolithic structures with little local management - Oswestry and Luton being under the same Midlands set up; in this respect, Arriva Cymru is probably in better shape because it still has its own MD. There is also the company wide reduction on new vehicle investment and AC is no different - it would be interesting to know how many new vehicles Arriva has actually bought for its OpCos in the last 5 years outside London. It seems almost paralysed by the DB board's indecision... Is it a disposal, or a part share offering, or what....As they wait and reflecting DB's own capital investment issues, so investment in Arriva UK Bus declines and it assumes more of a cash cow status.

That's unfortunately where Arriva Cymru is, having had some creditable investment in 2013-5. I don't expect them to vacate the area any time soon, and there are much more vulnerable parts of the empire I would suggest.

 

[radamfi]

Most of the Wales ops rely on the profits from the core routes to subsidise the local routes.

Why would they bother with the local routes if they are unprofitable?

 

[Robertj21a]

Why would they bother with the local routes if they are unprofitable?

Only if they felt that they contributed to a network as a whole.

 

[Llandudno]

There is an element of tourist trade on the North Wales coast routes but as tourism has decreased since the 1960s, so has it's importance to bus traffic. Certainly, there are areas like Pensarn where you still have tourist trade but a wander round Rhyl and Prestatyn shows that it's guest houses are not tourist based. Away from there, you also have places like Connahs Quay, Mold and Wrexham that I'd struggle to suggest that there's any tourist trade!! However, the core routes are (or were prior to March) still pretty strong and even in places like Colwyn Bay and Wrexham, there are still routes that are good enough to more than pay their way.

The issue with Arriva and DB, as I see it, has been along the lines as you suggest. There is a great rush to huge monolithic structures with little local management - Oswestry and Luton being under the same Midlands set up; in this respect, Arriva Cymru is probably in better shape because it still has its own MD. There is also the company wide reduction on new vehicle investment and AC is no different - it would be interesting to know how many new vehicles Arriva has actually bought for its OpCos in the last 5 years outside London. It seems almost paralysed by the DB board's indecision... Is it a disposal, or a part share offering, or what....As they wait and reflecting DB's own capital investment issues, so investment in Arriva UK Bus declines and it assumes more of a cash cow status.

That's unfortunately where Arriva Cymru is, having had some creditable investment in 2013-5. I don't expect them to vacate the area any time soon, and there are much more vulnerable parts of the empire I would suggest.

There is still plenty of tourism in north Wales, especially west of Talacre, sadly Arriva makes no attempt to attract tourists onto its buses. Route branding has all but disappeared and there is no marketing whatsoever of the services they are operating.

You can find sketchy details of times and routes on the Arriva website, if you can be bothered to try and fathom the clunky and virtually incomprehensible website.

 

[A0wen]

There seems to be a misapprehension that the ownership is relevant to this - I suspect that's not the case. If you look back to the days of NBC, there were various retrenchments, usually in rural areas, by NBC subsidiaries - Western National did this in several cases and it wasn't the only one.

The reality is whether there is a viable business there - Arriva have clearly decided there isn't.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There is still plenty of tourism in north Wales, especially west of Talacre, sadly Arriva makes no attempt to attract tourists onto its buses. Route branding has all but disappeared and there is no marketing whatsoever of the services they are operating.

You can find sketchy details of times and routes on the Arriva website, if you can be bothered to try and fathom the clunky and virtually incomprehensible website.

Yeah, to be fair, there is a bit still with Talacre and Pontins. That's fair enough, and same out to Pensarn and Abergele. However, it's not what it was and as you say, marketing is poor.

The Sapphire 12 was a good move and a bit of a surprise on the 10 and welcome investment on those routes. However despite the other new vehicles that were delivered, the Cymru Coastliner branding was minimalist on the 11, and virtually invisible on the 5. Not been to North Wales since my mate moved about 3 years ago but assume that the branding is no better now that it was then!

Arriva seems to be following the same path as First did 15 years ago, though for different reasons.

 

[adey2011]

Lloyds Coaches have quite a strong presence in the area with the 35 and 38 @ Blaenau Ffestiniog and the T2, 38 and 99 @ Porthmadog. A possible replacement service for the 3B could be Blaenau Ffestiniog to the Oakley Arms @ Maentwrog. This could be timed to meet the T2 to Porthmadog where passengers could transfer. In this way the mileage and expense of running through to Porthmadog by the 3B's is cut out. Just a thought............

 

[duncombec]

it would be interesting to know how many new vehicles Arriva has actually bought for its OpCos in the last 5 years outside London.

Don't want to take this off-topic too much, but I did a quick query of the BLOTW database then exported to Excel and filtered.

It lists a total of 1395 vehicles delivered in 2015-2020 (so a little over 5 years) - and actually only 1393, as two Streetdecks are on the database but marked not delivered (*).
Cymru: 36
Durham County: 31
Kent & Surrey: 62
Kent Thameside: 178 (Includes at least 38 vehicles now with London, following transfer of all TfL ops to London, and 18 nomadic Sprinters)
"London" (North, South and not specified): 569 (EDIT: this also includes 186 NBFLs, which arguably should be removed from later calculations if so inclined, given Arriva don't own them)
Merseyside: 217 (This appears to cover all NW ops, as the Sprinters at Winsford are included here)
Midlands: 103
Northumbria: 13
The Shires: 102 (Also includes at least 10 now with London, and three batches of coaches for Green Line work)
Yorkshire: 84 (*actually 82)

So overall, if we shuffle the 48 country buses that moved to London into London, I make that 617, or 44% of intake, for London. 778 (*776) for the rest of the country, or an average of 130-ish a year. Obviously there may be gaps in the BLOTW database, and I have a feeling more vehicles were transferred for London ops than I can easily identify (especially Kent Thameside), but it's a rough go.
(EDIT: Removing the NBfLs, 431 for London out of a total of 1209, or 35% of intake).

Does anyone know what the fleet size is, to see what that equates to? Although then we should probably open a new thread!

 

[carlberry]

Don't want to take this off-topic too much, but I did a quick query of the BLOTW database then exported to Excel and filtered.

It lists a total of 1395 vehicles delivered in 2015-2020 (so a little over 5 years) - and actually only 1393, as two Streetdecks are on the database but marked not delivered (*).
Cymru: 36
Durham County: 31
Kent & Surrey: 62
Kent Thameside: 178 (Includes at least 38 vehicles now with London, following transfer of all TfL ops to London, and 18 nomadic Sprinters)
"London" (North, South and not specified): 569
Merseyside: 217 (This appears to cover all NW ops, as the Sprinters at Winsford are included here)
Midlands: 103
Northumbria: 13
The Shires: 102 (Also includes at least 10 now with London, and three batches of coaches for Green Line work)
Yorkshire: 84 (*actually 82)

So overall, if we shuffle the 48 country buses that moved to London into London, I make that 617, or 44% of intake, for London. 778 (*776) for the rest of the country, or an average of 130-ish a year. Obviously there may be gaps in the BLOTW database, and I have a feeling more vehicles were transferred for London ops than I can easily identify (especially Kent Thameside), but it's a rough go.

Does anyone know what the fleet size is, to see what that equates to? Although then we should probably open a new thread!

Wikipedia says: Arriva operates 5,900 buses in London, the north east, north west and south east of England, Yorkshire, the Midlands and Wales.

 

[Robertj21a]

Don't want to take this off-topic too much, but I did a quick query of the BLOTW database then exported to Excel and filtered.

It lists a total of 1395 vehicles delivered in 2015-2020 (so a little over 5 years) - and actually only 1393, as two Streetdecks are on the database but marked not delivered (*).
Cymru: 36
Durham County: 31
Kent & Surrey: 62
Kent Thameside: 178 (Includes at least 38 vehicles now with London, following transfer of all TfL ops to London, and 18 nomadic Sprinters)
"London" (North, South and not specified): 569 (EDIT: this also includes 186 NBFLs, which arguably should be removed from later calculations if so inclined, given Arriva don't own them)
Merseyside: 217 (This appears to cover all NW ops, as the Sprinters at Winsford are included here)
Midlands: 103
Northumbria: 13
The Shires: 102 (Also includes at least 10 now with London, and three batches of coaches for Green Line work)
Yorkshire: 84 (*actually 82)

So overall, if we shuffle the 48 country buses that moved to London into London, I make that 617, or 44% of intake, for London. 778 (*776) for the rest of the country, or an average of 130-ish a year. Obviously there may be gaps in the BLOTW database, and I have a feeling more vehicles were transferred for London ops than I can easily identify (especially Kent Thameside), but it's a rough go.
(EDIT: Removing the NBfLs, 431 for London out of a total of 1209, or 35% of intake).

Does anyone know what the fleet size is, to see what that equates to? Although then we should probably open a new thread!

776 is not too bad given all the problems with DB debating what to do etc.

 

[duncombec]

776 is not too bad given all the problems with DB debating what to do etc.

Certainly higher than I thought - but 598 of them were delivered in 2015 and 2017 (298 and 300 respectively) - it's not really fair to count 2020, but only 45 in 2019, for example, showing how much DB's faffing around affected it (and barely better in 2018).

I also realised I left out Yorkshire Tiger (12 vehicles, delivered in 2015 and 2017).. the perils of doing it quickly!

Wikipedia says: Arriva operates 5,900 buses in London, the north east, north west and south east of England, Yorkshire, the Midlands and Wales.

As does LinkedIn, but it also includes Wardle Transport and Network Colchester as trading names, so not sure how accurate that is!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thanks for the number crunching. Being pedantic, those figures for Arriva Cymru include all of 2015 so if you took the 15 plates out (yes, being picky) then it's 3 e200s and the e400city for the Wrexham to Chester route.

However, it does confirm what I suspected in that for the last few years, it's been pretty thin outside of London and as First found out, taking a bit of an investment holiday causes some problems eventually. It's still not a part fleet profile for Arriva Cymru and, of course, Covid will be a factor with doubtless more service/fleet cuts allowing them to exit the older vehicles.

 

[Llandudno]

Yeah, to be fair, there is a bit still with Talacre and Pontins. That's fair enough, and same out to Pensarn and Abergele. However, it's not what it was and as you say, marketing is poor.

The Sapphire 12 was a good move and a bit of a surprise on the 10 and welcome investment on those routes. However despite the other new vehicles that were delivered, the Cymru Coastliner branding was minimalist on the 11, and virtually invisible on the 5. Not been to North Wales since my mate moved about 3 years ago but assume that the branding is no better now that it was then!

Arriva seems to be following the same path as First did 15 years ago, though for different reasons.

Sapphire branding has all but disappeared on the 12, it now only runs every 15 minutes, it was 10 minutes when relaunched, and the evening frequency is now the easy to remember 40 minutes headway!

 

[markymark2000]

Why would they bother with the local routes if they are unprofitable?

I didn't say unprofitable but I do think if in Rhyls case, the 11, 12 and 51 weren't there, the money off the locals wouldn't sustain the depot and it's costs. Covers it's direct operating costs, probably not the depot costs.

Don't want to take this off-topic too much, but I did a quick query of the BLOTW database then exported to Excel and filtered.

It lists a total of 1395 vehicles delivered in 2015-2020 (so a little over 5 years) - and actually only 1393, as two Streetdecks are on the database but marked not delivered (*).
Cymru: 36
Durham County: 31
Kent & Surrey: 62
Kent Thameside: 178 (Includes at least 38 vehicles now with London, following transfer of all TfL ops to London, and 18 nomadic Sprinters)
"London" (North, South and not specified): 569 (EDIT: this also includes 186 NBFLs, which arguably should be removed from later calculations if so inclined, given Arriva don't own them)
Merseyside: 217 (This appears to cover all NW ops, as the Sprinters at Winsford are included here)
Midlands: 103
Northumbria: 13
The Shires: 102 (Also includes at least 10 now with London, and three batches of coaches for Green Line work)
Yorkshire: 84 (*actually 82)

So overall, if we shuffle the 48 country buses that moved to London into London, I make that 617, or 44% of intake, for London. 778 (*776) for the rest of the country, or an average of 130-ish a year. Obviously there may be gaps in the BLOTW database, and I have a feeling more vehicles were transferred for London ops than I can easily identify (especially Kent Thameside), but it's a rough go.
(EDIT: Removing the NBfLs, 431 for London out of a total of 1209, or 35% of intake).

Does anyone know what the fleet size is, to see what that equates to? Although then we should probably open a new thread!

Of those 36, 28 went to Wrexham which is the best depot in the Wales division. Sapphire on the Connahs Quay is because it was once a busy corridor. Slowly Arriva has killed this off though with the constant changing (was every 15 mins at one point to Connahs Quay but then it went down and now runs every 30 minutes to Connahs Quay with half hourly buses then running to Flint Ship (not running at the moment due to Covid)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I didn't say unprofitable but I do think if in Rhyls case, the 11, 12 and 51 weren't there, the money off the locals wouldn't sustain the depot and it's costs. Covers it's direct operating costs, probably not the depot costs.

Exactly. As you know, and for @jamesheet49 benefit, routes in Bangor like the 67s to Bethesda or the 78 to Maersgirchen, or in Llandudno with routes like the 13 or 23-26 routes are neither loss-making nor do they underpin the depots. They cover their direct costs, provide a contribution to fixed overheads, and a bit of profit.

The core routes, like the 1 in Wrexham, and the coastal routes 5/10/11/12 make the most money, have received investment in the past. Without those core routes, the locals couldn't cover the cost of the depots and similarly, without the local routes, the burden would fall even more onto the core routes.

Getting back on topic, I'd suggest that Pwllheli (despite it being a small outstation) is now no longer even covering its costs.

 

[Hardcastle]

Does anyone have updates on any replacement services for these withdrawn Arriva services after they pull out at the end of November.

 

[TheSel]

Does anyone have updates on any replacement services for these withdrawn Arriva services after they pull out at the end of November.

Not an update as such, other than to note that it's now December, and the service still appears to be running. 3179 - CX14BXU - is on the 3B as I type this.

3179 - CX14 BXU

VDL SB200 Wright Pulsar 2

bustimes.org

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Not an update as such, other than to note that it's now December, and the service still appears to be running. 3179 - CX14BXU - is on the 3B as I type this.

3179 - CX14 BXU

VDL SB200 Wright Pulsar 2

bustimes.org

The announcement now says operation until Thursday 17th December (which seems an odd day to conclude). I wonder if Gwynedd have thrown a bit of cash and asked them to continue until a new operator takes over. https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/latest-news/arriva-services-3-and-3b-in-pwllheli-to-be-withdrawn

 

[TheSel]

The announcement now says operation until Thursday 17th December (which seems an odd day to conclude). I wonder if Gwynedd have thrown a bit of cash and asked them to continue until a new operator takes over. https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/latest-news/arriva-services-3-and-3b-in-pwllheli-to-be-withdrawn

Thanks for the update.

 

[stan68]

Its a shame about Gwynedd, but I wonder if this is a recurring thing, as they closed Llandudno Junction garage 6 or so years ago. If I were another operator I would have taken over that garage a long time ago but now it has been turned into a Lidl prospects seem a bit dim. Since Express Motors shut down I wonder if there should be some kind of government investigation and retendering taken over like what happened in Cornwall recently.

 

[Llandudno]

Its a shame about Gwynedd, but I wonder if this is a recurring thing, as they closed Llandudno Junction garage 6 or so years ago. If I were another operator I would have taken over that garage a long time ago but now it has been turned into a Lidl prospects seem a bit dim. Since Express Motors shut down I wonder if there should be some kind of government investigation and retendering taken over like what happened in Cornwall recently.

Arriva outstation a number of vehicles (anyone know how many?) at Alpine Coaches depot in Llandudno, so no real need for an Arriva depot at Junction, especially as Arriva seem to be retrenching in north Wales.
No new vehicles, no new routes, no innovation, no marketing and frequencies even of trunk routes all over the place.

Perhaps Arriva are looking for a buyer like they have just secured in the Cannock area?

 

[markymark2000]

Arriva outstation a number of vehicles (anyone know how many?) at Alpine Coaches depot in Llandudno, so no real need for an Arriva depot at Junction, especially as Arriva seem to be retrenching in north Wales.
No new vehicles, no new routes, no innovation, no marketing and frequencies even of trunk routes all over the place.

Perhaps Arriva are looking for a buyer like they have just secured in the Cannock area?

In Chester, they kept all the trunk routes on 1/2 frequency as well rather than running full timetables which were done elsewhere. The routes are now only just returning to decent timetables. They are 100% running down the area but in true NW&W fashion, they are doing it in such a way to kill off the demand on the local routes so no one else will try and run the buses and then with no competition, they can keep the trunk routes which make more money. It's as if they have a grudge against the area and as they can't make it work, they don't want anyone else to make it work.

 

[43055]

Arriva outstation a number of vehicles (anyone know how many?) at Alpine Coaches depot in Llandudno, so no real need for an Arriva depot at Junction, especially as Arriva seem to be retrenching in north Wales.

At a complete guess using a 2016 copy of the Conwy Public Transport guide:
13 - 5 buses
14/15 - 5 buses
23/24 - 2 buses
25 - 1 bus
26 - 1 bus
27 - 2 buses

This works out at around 16 vehicles for the Llandudno area routes excluding the 5/X5 and 12 (I think all of these go back to Bangor/Rhyl overnight).