ATO Rules for drivers?

[Kentish Paul]

Recently watched a train arrive at a station which I know to be operating under ATO (Automatic Train Operation). The driver was standing behind the center cab window as the train pulled up to the stop.

Is this allowed or does the driver have to sit at the controls when ATO is in operation? It was the first time I had seen this as every time before the driver has been sat at the controls.

I have not given details of where and when this was for obvious reasons.

 

[Domh245]

My guess is that they could be anywhere they want, so long as they could see out of the front of the train, and could easily reach an emergency stop device. On some stocks, that would require you to be sat down in the driving seat, but in other stocks it might be slightly easier
Also, is it possible that you saw a second member of staff who was stood in the middle of the cab, the actual driver, still sat in their seat, just hidden from view?

 

[Kentish Paul]

My guess is that they could be anywhere they want, so long as they could see out of the front of the train, and could easily reach an emergency stop device. On some stocks, that would require you to be sat down in the driving seat, but in other stocks it might be slightly easier
Also, is it possible that you saw a second member of staff who was stood in the middle of the cab, the actual driver, still sat in their seat, just hidden from view?

No, only one person in the cab.

 

[Mojo]

On some stocks, that would require you to be sat down in the driving seat, but in other stocks it might be slightly easier.

I can't think of any stock with ATO where being sat down in the seat would be required for this reason. Knocking out the traction brake controller will apply the emergency brakes and this is located to the right hand side of the Train Operator's chair on 92, 95 and 96 Stock. On 09 Stock there are emergency stop buttons within easy reach of most areas of the cab.

 

[Domh245]

I can't think of any stock with ATO where being sat down in the seat would be required for this reason. Knocking out the traction brake controller will apply the emergency brakes and this is located to the right hand side of the Train Operator's chair on 92, 95 and 96 Stock. On 09 Stock there are emergency stop buttons within easy reach of most areas of the cab.

I was working on the idea that the driver was stood slightly forward of the TBC, which I thought would have made it more difficult to knock it out, especially as I've heard that they usually need a firm pull to stow them, I guessed it work a similar way in reverse. But then again, I'm just guessing based on what I've seen on websites such as squarewheels

 

[455driver]

What has the driver standing up got to do with the rules, as alluded to in the thread title?

This reminds me of that thread a while ago where somebody was astounded that a HST driver was stood up while driving and coming up with all sorts of ridiculous reasons why he should have been sat down! :roll:

 

[edwin_m]

I was reading an accident report where a Tube driver was partly to blame because he put his controller into neutral and let the train roll on a downhill section, thus disabling the deadman's handle, so he could sit down for a while. Mind you it was in 1911.

 

[causton]

I was reading an accident report where a Tube driver was partly to blame because he put his controller into neutral and let the train roll on a downhill section, thus disabling the deadman's handle, so he could sit down for a while. Mind you it was in 1911.

Yes, there is also one of a (Piccadilly line?) driver who put a bag of shopping on the handle to weigh it down...

(edit: here ya go! http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/runaway-tube-driver-jailed-1445495.html)

Much different on ATO stock though where the system will stop the train itself without the driver being anywhere near there in most situations!

 

[edwin_m]

Much different on ATO stock though where the system will stop the train itself without the driver being anywhere near there in most situations!

And most of the time the system will keep the train moving, with "signal" stops if necessary, until the next station stop. Especially on an underground railway it is far safer if the driver is incapacitated (or for most other incidents) for the train to travel to the next station rather than slamming on the brakes when the DSD is released. Hence the system keeps the train moving and only requires driver input to authorise starting from a station. The driver can override the system and stop the train if he/she becomes aware of one of the rare incident types where this is safer than continuing.

 

[Clip]

What has the driver standing up got to do with the rules, as alluded to in the thread title?

Its a fairly decent question given that there are rules and regs surrounding just about everything on the railway so an enquiry to see if there is one whilst a train is in ATO and where the driver is to stand is a sensible question - especially if you only ever see drivers sat down at the controls day in day out.

 

[Kentish Paul]

Its a fairly decent question given that there are rules and regs surrounding just about everything on the railway so an enquiry to see if there is one whilst a train is in ATO and where the driver is to stand is a sensible question - especially if you only ever see drivers sat down at the controls day in day out.

Thankyou Clip.

It was a genuine question regarding rules. Does a LUL driver of an ATO train have to sit at the controls or can they do other things. Just asking?

All the trains in question I've seen have always had the driver sat at the desk. This one was strange as the driver was standing behind the center window/door with hands above the head leaning on the door frames.

As to 455driver. Not having a go as regards rules, just looking for a little clarification.

 

[A-driver]

Sorry but this kind of post from the OP is why there can be such friction from staff on this forum. I am sorry to seem to have a go at the OP and I mean nothing personal by this but posts like this do wind me up.

Why is there any need to ask this question whatsoever? Forgive me if I'm wrong but the basic point of this thread is asking "is there a rule against drivers standing up in the middle of the cab as I just saw a driver doing so". Now is it not fair to assume that if you witnessed a driver doing this then it is fine and perfectly allowed? Otherwise why would he be doing it? I mean rail staff don't set out to break rules and are well trained in what they should and should not be doing. Therefore if you witness a train driver doing something then it most probably is allowed and not necessary to come onto a forum and try and make out they may have been doing something wrong.

TOC twitter feeds are the same with constant tweets of "I just saw your driver do this...is that allowed?!" Well yes it is, that's why you saw them doing it. If it wasn't then they wouldn't do it.

I know many people on here assume train drivers and other staff can't be trusted to do the jobs we are trained and paid to do but I find posts like this thread very offensive as it just shows that people see something and immediately assume that the evil rail workers are breaking the rules by daring to, well, stand up! It's exactly why there is often so much friction between staff and none staff on this forum.

 

[Kentish Paul]

Sorry but this kind of post from the OP is why there can be such friction from staff on this forum. I am sorry to seem to have a go at the OP and I mean nothing personal by this but posts like this do wind me up.

Why is there any need to ask this question whatsoever? Forgive me if I'm wrong but the basic point of this thread is asking "is there a rule against drivers standing up in the middle of the cab as I just saw a driver doing so". Now is it not fair to assume that if you witnessed a driver doing this then it is fine and perfectly allowed? Otherwise why would he be doing it? I mean rail staff don't set out to break rules and are well trained in what they should and should not be doing. Therefore if you witness a train driver doing something then it most probably is allowed and not necessary to come onto a forum and try and make out they may have been doing something wrong.

TOC twitter feeds are the same with constant tweets of "I just saw your driver do this...is that allowed?!" Well yes it is, that's why you saw them doing it. If it wasn't then they wouldn't do it.

I know many people on here assume train drivers and other staff can't be trusted to do the jobs we are trained and paid to do but I find posts like this thread very offensive as it just shows that people see something and immediately assume that the evil rail workers are breaking the rules by daring to, well, stand up! It's exactly why there is often so much friction between staff and none staff on this forum.

Sorry you are so offended by my post. I just asked a question. Will not bother again. Goodbye.

 

[A-driver]

Sorry you are so offended by my post. I just asked a question. Will not bother again. Goodbye.

As I said, I don't mean to have a go at you personally but I don't understand why you felt the need to ask? Why would you not have seen him stand up and think "oh right, I didn't realise drivers were able to stand" rather than, as it seems, think "I reckon that driver is probably breaking rules here doing that". This is a genuine question from me and really not me having a go at you. I apologise if I have offended you as it isn't how my post was intended but I can't understand why you wouldn't give this professional driver the benefit of the doubt.

It's a general gripe on this forum so please don't take it personally as that isn't how it is intended but people really do think the worse and assume staff are in the wrong rather than respecting that they actually know what they are doing. Similar to a poster some months ago arguing that he had seen a driver with a foot up on the desk and had decided himself that this was very dangerous and against the rules-which it certainly is neither.

 

[Kentish Paul]

As I said, I don't mean to have a go at you personally but I don't understand why you felt the need to ask? Why would you not have seen him stand up and think "oh right, I didn't realise drivers were able to stand" rather than, as it seems, think "I reckon that driver is probably breaking rules here doing that". This is a genuine question from me and really not me having a go at you. I apologise if I have offended you as it isn't how my post was intended but I can't understand why you wouldn't give this professional driver the benefit of the doubt.

It's a general gripe on this forum so please don't take it personally as that isn't how it is intended but people really do think the worse and assume staff are in the wrong rather than respecting that they actually know what they are doing. Similar to a poster some months ago arguing that he had seen a driver with a foot up on the desk and had decided himself that this was very dangerous and against the rules-which it certainly is neither.

Sorry if I went over the top!

I have the highest regard for train crew and get as mad as you at the media talk of "its only pulling levers".

It was just a simple ask of whether LUL require drivers to sit at the desk or not.

 

[A-driver]

Sorry if I went over the top!



I have the highest regard for train crew and get as mad as you at the media talk of "its only pulling levers".



It was just a simple ask of whether LUL require drivers to sit at the desk or not.

Fair enough and I'm really not having a go at you personally. Sorry of I offended or upset you as that certainly was not my intention. Please don't be out off posting, I was making a generally observation about this forum at times and not intending to have an argument or picking on you personally.

 

[Dstock7080]

It was just a simple ask of whether LUL require drivers to sit at the desk or not.

No, they do not.
As said previously, emergency stop devices are fitted to both sides of the cab should the need arise to stop the train.
The 'desired' driving position on the new S Stock is indeed seated, although they can be driven while standing.

 

[455driver]

I dont mind people asking questions (it is the easiest way to learn) but it was the way this thread was headed "ATO Rules for drivers? with it trying to say the driver (or train operator or whatever they are called this week) has done something wrong simply by standing up ikn the cab!

There are different ways of asking the same question, some polite and some not, this one wasnt polite!
If the OP is offended by my replky then tough, because I was offended by your thread title!

Anyway now I have got that off my chest can we all have a group hug please, no tongues though!

 

[Kentish Paul]

I dont mind people asking questions (it is the easiest way to learn) but it was the way this thread was headed "ATO Rules for drivers? with it trying to say the driver (or train operator or whatever they are called this week) has done something wrong simply by standing up ikn the cab!

There are different ways of asking the same question, some polite and some not, this one wasnt polite!
If the OP is offended by my replky then tough, because I was offended by your thread title!

Anyway now I have got that off my chest can we all have a group hug please, no tongues though!

Hugs all round. Thanks everyone.

 

[Clip]

I dont mind people asking questions (it is the easiest way to learn) but it was the way this thread was headed "ATO Rules for drivers? with it trying to say the driver (or train operator or whatever they are called this week) has done something wrong simply by standing up ikn the cab!

But this is along the same line of asking 'Door duty rules for guards' and then going on to ask that do guards have to stand and open/close doors at certain doors whilst on their duties.

How the hell is anyone going to learn about any rules on the railway without asking or being a full on trainspotter who hardly gets their nose out of Rail publications?

As I said, people are aware their are rules and regs surrounding all railways in this country as well as others so asking if there is a rule for where they stand is perfectly reasonable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I know many people on here assume train drivers and other staff can't be trusted to do the jobs we are trained and paid to do but I find posts like this thread very offensive as it just shows that people see something and immediately assume that the evil rail workers are breaking the rules by daring to, well, stand up! It's exactly why there is often so much friction between staff and none staff on this forum.

I think you are a little paranoid. Did you never ask questions? Do you never question something you are unsure about to either a company with regards to safety just in case something was going a little wrong.

Try not being so touchy. Answer a question in the manner that it was asked and not in the manner you think it was asked - i.e a personal attack on the drivers grade.

 

[A-driver]

But this is along the same line of asking 'Door duty rules for guards' and then going on to ask that do guards have to stand and open/close doors at certain doors whilst on their duties.



How the hell is anyone going to learn about any rules on the railway without asking or being a full on trainspotter who hardly gets their nose out of Rail publications?



As I said, people are aware their are rules and regs surrounding all railways in this country as well as others so asking if there is a rule for where they stand is perfectly reasonable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




I think you are a little paranoid. Did you never ask questions? Do you never question something you are unsure about to either a company with regards to safety just in case something was going a little wrong.



Try not being so touchy. Answer a question in the manner that it was asked and not in the manner you think it was asked - i.e a personal attack on the drivers grade.

I don't think my response was paranoid. If I saw someone at work doing something and I wasn't sure if it was permitted then if give the benefit if the doubt as I don't actually know how they are meant to do their job. I wouldn't assume they are breaking rules and go digging around to confirm if rules have been broken. I mean the driver refered to above was standing up. Clearly still looking out the front, not asleep/reading/texting etc but standing up. I find it offensive that people post on here (and I don't mean this thread as I have already cleared things up with the OP) but other posts to assuming that staff are in the wrong.