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Austria (and perhaps other European countries?) return to full lockdown

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Bantamzen

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Just because the government announces something does not mean it is constitutional. This will have to be decided by the constitutional court in Karlsruhe, which can and does throw out laws they deem unconstitutional. In one particularly bizarre episode, the state(not federal) Government in Berlin passed a law which limited housing rents. Later on the Consitutional court declared it unconstitutional, and not only did the rents go back up, everyone had to pay back the rent they had saved whilst the illegal law was in force.

It is not yet known what they will say. However, the court already ruled a couple of years ago that children could be vaccinated for Measles against the wishes of their parents, and back in the 50's Germany had compulsory vaccinations against Smallpox, so the most likely outcome is that they would allow this too.

The reality is that vaccination quotients are dissapointingly low, this is driving the current infection wave, and most people are fed with it. One part of Saxony has a corona-incidence of over 2000, and surprise surprise, barely over half the population is vaccinated. It seems to be working. Lots more vaccination centers are being opened to cope with the demand from those who either out of disinterest or reluctance failed to get vaccinated until now.
There is of course serious flaw in the German government's plan. Vaccinated people can also spread the virus, so restricting the lives of unvaccinated people will have little effect on infection rates. Perhaps rather than acting like an angry parent talking to their children, the German government might want to simply talk to it's citizens and encourage them to consider having it? Laws that determine what can and cannot go into your bodies are not ones compatible with a modern, civilised society.
 
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adc82140

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There is of course serious flaw in the German government's plan. Vaccinated people can also spread the virus, so restricting the lives of unvaccinated people will have little effect on infection rates. Perhaps rather than acting like an angry parent talking to their children, the German government might want to simply talk to it's citizens and encourage them to consider having it? Laws that determine what can and cannot go into your bodies are not ones compatible with a modern, civilised society.
Agreed. I am 100% in favour of everyone getting jabbed (by that I mean according to what the vaccine manufacturers recommend, not the schedule cooked up by the government).

But there should never be mandatory vaccinations for the general population. It must be achieved through education and engagement, not coercion.
 

MikeWM

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Just because the government announces something does not mean it is constitutional. This will have to be decided by the constitutional court in Karlsruhe, which can and does throw out laws they deem unconstitutional. In one particularly bizarre episode, the state(not federal) Government in Berlin passed a law which limited housing rents. Later on the Consitutional court declared it unconstitutional, and not only did the rents go back up, everyone had to pay back the rent they had saved whilst the illegal law was in force.

Indeed so about throwing out unconstitutional laws. That's something the UK doesn't have, as mentioned above. (and before anyone mentions rulings of the ECHR - remember voting rights for prisoners? Adverse rulings of the ECHR need to go through some process or other but in the end we can, and do, effectively ignore them).

It is not yet known what they will say. However, the court already ruled a couple of years ago that children could be vaccinated for Measles against the wishes of their parents, and back in the 50's Germany had compulsory vaccinations against Smallpox, so the most likely outcome is that they would allow this too.

Actually I was thinking more of the 'lockdown of the unvaccinated' here. I would have hoped that any constitution would be robust enough to block any such segregation based on any specific 'characteristics' whatever.

Also, while I totally oppose any sort of mandatory vaccination, I would say there is rather a difference between mandating vaccines that (a) are for diseases that are very dangerous, (b) prevent infection, (c) prevent transmission, and (d) are well-established and have a known safety profile; and the current Covid vaccines, which fit none of those 4 criteria.
 

brad465

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Actually I was thinking more of the 'lockdown of the unvaccinated' here. I would have hoped that any constitution would be robust enough to block any such segregation based on any specific 'characteristics' whatever.

Also, while I totally oppose any sort of mandatory vaccination, I would say there is rather a difference between mandating vaccines that (a) are for diseases that are very dangerous, (b) prevent infection, (c) prevent transmission, and (d) are well-established and have a known safety profile; and the current Covid vaccines, which fit none of those 4 criteria.
If a lockdown for unvaccinated happened here, it wouldn't achieve much if anything. This is not just because vaccinated people can still spread covid, but we're talking 80% of those eligible having at least 2 doses, around 8% having just one likely are 12-15s who are not eligible for 2, and the rest comprising under 12s and those who've chosen not to be vaccinated.

We can't do a lockdown for those who haven't had 3 doses because not everyone will have a chance to get one until the end of January, and by then it's possible we're passed the winter peak and the situation improves, making any form of new restrictions impossible to justify.
 

Simon11

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If a lockdown for unvaccinated happened here, it wouldn't achieve much if anything. This is not just because vaccinated people can still spread covid, but we're talking 80% of those eligible having at least 2 doses, around 8% having just one likely are 12-15s who are not eligible for 2, and the rest comprising under 12s and those who've chosen not to be vaccinated.

We can't do a lockdown for those who haven't had 3 doses because not everyone will have a chance to get one until the end of January, and by then it's possible we're passed the winter peak and the situation improves, making any form of new restrictions impossible to justify.

At the moment, there is no policing of face masks at shops and they are unlikely to want to have a responsibility to check vaccination status.
 

MikeWM

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If a lockdown for unvaccinated happened here, it wouldn't achieve much if anything.

I don't expect it will achieve much anywhere (look at what happened in Austria - it lasted all of 4 days or so!). Still, that hasn't stopped people trying all sorts of similar things that won't achieve anything either (mandatory masks, as an obvious example).

(Though in the case of my above post, perhaps I should clarify that by 'here' I meant 'in the quote from my previous post', not 'in the UK' :)
 

jumble

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At the moment, there is no policing of face masks at shops and they are unlikely to want to have a responsibility to check vaccination status.
You cannot imagine my delight on shopping at Lidl to encounter the scenario where a security guard was running after people who were maskless to ask him why he was not making the manager wear their mask properly over their nose in their presence when he went to talk to them.

It was apparently an instruction from Lidl head office although I suspect that running after customers was not mentioned.
On the other hand Poundland and Primark could not have cared less

Just because the government announces something does not mean it is constitutional. This will have to be decided by the constitutional court in Karlsruhe, which can and does throw out laws they deem unconstitutional. In one particularly bizarre episode, the state(not federal) Government in Berlin passed a law which limited housing rents. Later on the Consitutional court declared it unconstitutional, and not only did the rents go back up, everyone had to pay back the rent they had saved whilst the illegal law was in force.

It is not yet known what they will say. However, the court already ruled a couple of years ago that children could be vaccinated for Measles against the wishes of their parents, and back in the 50's Germany had compulsory vaccinations against Smallpox, so the most likely outcome is that they would allow this too.

The reality is that vaccination quotients are dissapointingly low, this is driving the current infection wave, and most people are fed with it. One part of Saxony has a corona-incidence of over 2000, and surprise surprise, barely over half the population is vaccinated. It seems to be working. Lots more vaccination centers are being opened to cope with the demand from those who either out of disinterest or reluctance failed to get vaccinated until now.
My understanding is that the Measles vaccinations are not mandatory in Germany just that one will be fined if one does not comply
My definition of mandatory vaccination is that the state will pin you down and forcibly vaccinate which does not seem to be the case
This is the fundamental issue with Mandatory medical treatment
What are you going to do next if people refuse?
 
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brad465

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Using Measles/MMR vaccine mandates as justification for mandating covid vaccines is not sensible. Even if there are no ethical concerns of such a mandate, with Measles, once you've had 1-2 doses you're protected for life, so don't ever need any further doses, and both infection and transmission are almost completely eliminated. With covid vaccines, one can still get some form of illness despite at least 2 doses, and it's looking like boosters are needed at least every 6 months, or, in our case, after 3 months. This makes mandates pointless in terms of outcomes and very unsustainable with regards to the medical capacity required to issue boosters that frequently to the entire population. There have been suggestions GPs will be allowed to stop regular monitoring of patients with underlying health conditions in order to make space for booster rollouts, this is not sensible and counterproductive to managing all health problems.
 

Smidster

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More restrictions for our friends in Ireland:

From December 7th to (at least) January 9th

Nghtclubs to close
Social distancing in restaurants- table service only Masks worn when not at table
Max of 50% capacity at cultural/sporting events
Covid pass required for gyms
Max of three households for indoor household mixing

And remember this is a population with a very high vaccination rate (c90%)
 

yorksrob

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I've not been a nightclub for for some years (rather decades) but this is a very worrying development for a vaccinated country.

I think that too many democratic Western governments have just lost their bottle and need to grow some balls.
 

21C101

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More restrictions for our friends in Ireland:

From December 7th to (at least) January 9th

Nghtclubs to close
Social distancing in restaurants- table service only Masks worn when not at table
Max of 50% capacity at cultural/sporting events
Covid pass required for gyms
Max of three households for indoor household mixing

And remember this is a population with a very high vaccination rate (c90%)
The nightclubs of Newry and Londonderry are going to be busy.

Go north for freedom.
 

Yew

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More restrictions for our friends in Ireland:

From December 7th to (at least) January 9th

Nghtclubs to close
Social distancing in restaurants- table service only Masks worn when not at table
Max of 50% capacity at cultural/sporting events
Covid pass required for gyms
Max of three households for indoor household mixing

And remember this is a population with a very high vaccination rate (c90%)
Is this how it works now, whenever a new thing comes along we shut down life, even if there's no concrete evidence it's any worse?
 

Darandio

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Is this how it works now, whenever a new thing comes along we shut down life, even if there's no concrete evidence it's any worse?

Especially as during the same address the Irish leader boasts Ireland as having the "most vaccinated population in Europe". If he can make that boast whilst introducing further restrictions then yes, that's how it is now.
 

MikeWM

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More restrictions for our friends in Ireland:

From December 7th to (at least) January 9th

Nghtclubs to close
Social distancing in restaurants- table service only Masks worn when not at table
Max of 50% capacity at cultural/sporting events
Covid pass required for gyms
Max of three households for indoor household mixing

And remember this is a population with a very high vaccination rate (c90%)

Everything done over the last 21 months was clearly a big success and totally worth it then :rolleyes:

Even now, after all we've seen, I'm occasionally surprised at the utter stupidity that continues to occur.
 

Eyersey468

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Is this how it works now, whenever a new thing comes along we shut down life, even if there's no concrete evidence it's any worse?
It seems like that. To be honest it's really worrying, not so much the new varient but the fact everywhere brings in new restrictions before there is any evidence they are needed. It seems to be decided on a ministerial whim rather than any evidence.
 
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johnnychips

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It seems like that. To be honest it's really worrying, not so much the new varient but the fact everywhere brings in new restrictions before there is any evidence they are needed. It seems to be decided on a ministerial whim rather than any evidence.
Peppa Pig.
 

danm14

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Everything done over the last 21 months was clearly a big success and totally worth it then :rolleyes:

Even now, after all we've seen, I'm occasionally surprised at the utter stupidity that continues to occur.
What I can never understand is the level of compliance in the Republic of Ireland compared to Northern Ireland.

In Northern Ireland, despite possibly the strictest indoor mask mandate in the world (masks are simply mandatory in every indoor location which the public have access to - with the sole exception of while seated at a religious service), compliance is low and enforcement is non-existent. . Nowhere outside of a few major events and venues (which were strongly recommended to) required vaccine passports until they were made mandatory. I haven't been asked for contact tracing details since October 2020.

There is absolutely zero nationalist/unionist or Catholic/Protestant divide - this is not an Irish/British issue. Nor is it a gradual increase in strictness as you near the Republic - it is an abrupt change at the border.

In the Republic of Ireland, mask wearing is near-universal. You will simply not get through life without wearing a mask regularly unless you are visibly severely disabled. Bus drivers will shut the door, shopkeepers will ask you to leave. This is despite exemption criteria being even wider than in the UK, and it being very clear that refusing service to someone unable to wear a mask is disability discrimination, with several businesses heavily fined for doing so.

Many businesses are being stricter with what documentation they will accept than they are required to be, often refusing foreign or paper documents, in case of "fakes" - even though it's the customer and not the business that's guilty of an offence if fake proof of vaccination is used, provided it was checked.

Some hair and beauty businesses are voluntarily refusing service to the unvaccinated. Some hospitality venues are voluntarily refusing service to elderly people who have not received a booster vaccine. Nobody sees an issue with mandatory exclusion of those unable to be vaccinated for genuine medical reasons from society "for their own protection".

Contact tracing is taken very seriously for some reason. Use of the contact tracing app is still very high. I even had a staff member in a cafe phone the number I gave "to check it's correct" - and I had to come up with an excuse on the spot as to why my phone wasn't ringing ("Oh, my phone hasn't worked properly in the Republic since Brexit"). They actually seemed to be doing this to everyone.
 

brad465

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What I can never understand is the level of compliance in the Republic of Ireland compared to Northern Ireland.

In Northern Ireland, despite possibly the strictest indoor mask mandate in the world (masks are simply mandatory in every indoor location which the public have access to - with the sole exception of while seated at a religious service), compliance is low and enforcement is non-existent. . Nowhere outside of a few major events and venues (which were strongly recommended to) required vaccine passports until they were made mandatory. I haven't been asked for contact tracing details since October 2020.

There is absolutely zero nationalist/unionist or Catholic/Protestant divide - this is not an Irish/British issue. Nor is it a gradual increase in strictness as you near the Republic - it is an abrupt change at the border.

In the Republic of Ireland, mask wearing is near-universal. You will simply not get through life without wearing a mask regularly unless you are visibly severely disabled. Bus drivers will shut the door, shopkeepers will ask you to leave. This is despite exemption criteria being even wider than in the UK, and it being very clear that refusing service to someone unable to wear a mask is disability discrimination, with several businesses heavily fined for doing so.

Many businesses are being stricter with what documentation they will accept than they are required to be, often refusing foreign or paper documents, in case of "fakes" - even though it's the customer and not the business that's guilty of an offence if fake proof of vaccination is used, provided it was checked.

Some hair and beauty businesses are voluntarily refusing service to the unvaccinated. Some hospitality venues are voluntarily refusing service to elderly people who have not received a booster vaccine. Nobody sees an issue with mandatory exclusion of those unable to be vaccinated for genuine medical reasons from society "for their own protection".

Contact tracing is taken very seriously for some reason. Use of the contact tracing app is still very high. I even had a staff member in a cafe phone the number I gave "to check it's correct" - and I had to come up with an excuse on the spot as to why my phone wasn't ringing ("Oh, my phone hasn't worked properly in the Republic since Brexit"). They actually seemed to be doing this to everyone.
First of all it's nice to see something actually uniting the two main divided factions in Northern Ireland.

The Republic of Ireland situation sounds extremely creepy, but at the same time it clearly isn't effective, as near-universal compliance and vaccine uptake is not stopping covid to the point that more restrictions are coming back in. That said for this reason their situation would be a good example to use when trying to push the argument of ineffective measures.
 

philosopher

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First of all it's nice to see something actually uniting the two main divided factions in Northern Ireland.

The Republic of Ireland situation sounds extremely creepy, but at the same time it clearly isn't effective, as near-universal compliance and vaccine uptake is not stopping covid to the point that more restrictions are coming back in. That said for this reason their situation would be a good example to use when trying to push the argument of ineffective measures.
The Republic of Ireland to me has what I call the big neighbour problem. Throughout this pandemic, it seems if a country has a much larger but culturally similar neighbour, as the Republic of Ireland does (the UK), the smaller country tries to outdo their much larger neighbour in control measures. Perhaps the smaller country and the people living there want to be seen as ’setting an example’ to their reckless larger neighbours!

You can see this play out elsewhere. For example New Zealand adopted zero covid first, pressuring much larger Australia to follow suit. Canada has had much stricter measures than the USA and Austria was the first adopt European country to adopt mandatory vaccination, resulting in Germany to consider something similar.
 

DustyBin

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We (as in western societies) are now descending the slippery slope, as many of us predicted. Whilst the UK, and England in particular, continues to be an outlier, there appears to be a definite direction of travel.

A year or more ago we talked about vaccine passports and the consensus was that such a draconian measure wouldn’t be introduced. They’re now widespread and people have accepted it.

Austria then went one step further and attempted to lock down the unvaccinated, with Germany now following. If you’d have said this would happen a year ago nobody would have taken you seriously.

The aforementioned countries are making vaccines mandatory, with Ursula Von Der Leyen calling for an EU wide discussion on the issue. This was once a red line few believed would be crossed.

So what next? The threat of a heavy fine will certainly coerce some of the unvaccinated into getting jabbed but not all; there will remain the “problem” of an unvaccinated cohort, however small. A few months from now I think it’s very possible that we’ll be discussing the rights and wrongs (mainly the latter!) of their removal from society. It’s the obvious next step if we continue to descend this slope.

Meanwhile the frog remains oblivious to the gradually rising temperature.
 

adc82140

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Ireland has one of the lowest hospital bed per head of population figures in Europe. That's what they need to be addressing. It doesn't take much to cause capacity problems in the Irish health service.
 

MikeWM

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What I can never understand is the level of compliance in the Republic of Ireland compared to Northern Ireland.

A very interesting (if rather depressing) report, thanks.

I do find it quite alarming that countries I have always previously regarded as 'sensible' and indeed as possible places to move to - Ireland, Canada, Germany - have become some of the most oppressive and neurotic.
 

Baxenden Bank

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More restrictions for our friends in Ireland:

From December 7th to (at least) January 9th

Nghtclubs to close
Social distancing in restaurants- table service only Masks worn when not at table
Max of 50% capacity at cultural/sporting events
Covid pass required for gyms
Max of three households for indoor household mixing

And remember this is a population with a very high vaccination rate (c90%)
I don't follow Irish politics or media but - has anyone there asked the question of just what these measures are expected to achieve? What are the outcomes, how will they be deemed to have been successful? Or is it simply 'because of COVID', stupid.

In England, those questions are not asked by an unbelievably tame media. Parliamentary checks and balances are bypassed by pushing most measures through as 'emergency measures' even when there is plenty of time to debate them between announcement and implementation.

I looked up the Austria situation a couple of days ago. No sooner had they introduced a lock-down for un-vaccinated individuals than they did the same for everyone - introduced exactly seven days apart.

As for Scotland Omicron situation, the COVID passport is working so well at cutting infections, not.
 

AlterEgo

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What I can never understand is the level of compliance in the Republic of Ireland compared to Northern Ireland.

In Northern Ireland, despite possibly the strictest indoor mask mandate in the world (masks are simply mandatory in every indoor location which the public have access to - with the sole exception of while seated at a religious service), compliance is low and enforcement is non-existent. . Nowhere outside of a few major events and venues (which were strongly recommended to) required vaccine passports until they were made mandatory. I haven't been asked for contact tracing details since October 2020.

There is absolutely zero nationalist/unionist or Catholic/Protestant divide - this is not an Irish/British issue. Nor is it a gradual increase in strictness as you near the Republic - it is an abrupt change at the border.

In the Republic of Ireland, mask wearing is near-universal. You will simply not get through life without wearing a mask regularly unless you are visibly severely disabled. Bus drivers will shut the door, shopkeepers will ask you to leave. This is despite exemption criteria being even wider than in the UK, and it being very clear that refusing service to someone unable to wear a mask is disability discrimination, with several businesses heavily fined for doing so.

Many businesses are being stricter with what documentation they will accept than they are required to be, often refusing foreign or paper documents, in case of "fakes" - even though it's the customer and not the business that's guilty of an offence if fake proof of vaccination is used, provided it was checked.

Some hair and beauty businesses are voluntarily refusing service to the unvaccinated. Some hospitality venues are voluntarily refusing service to elderly people who have not received a booster vaccine. Nobody sees an issue with mandatory exclusion of those unable to be vaccinated for genuine medical reasons from society "for their own protection".

Contact tracing is taken very seriously for some reason. Use of the contact tracing app is still very high. I even had a staff member in a cafe phone the number I gave "to check it's correct" - and I had to come up with an excuse on the spot as to why my phone wasn't ringing ("Oh, my phone hasn't worked properly in the Republic since Brexit"). They actually seemed to be doing this to everyone.
The relationship between the individual and the state is the main difference between the Republic and Northern Ireland, as well as the capacity and willingness of the relevant police services to actually enforce very low-level lawbreaking.
 

21C101

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The relationship between the individual and the state is the main difference between the Republic and Northern Ireland, as well as the capacity and willingness of the relevant police services to actually enforce very low-level lawbreaking.
There does increasingly seem to be a whiff of "Peoples Republic" to the Republic of Ireland.

A small minority of the catholic population are actually unionists and others wouldn't vote for reunufication for fear of losing the NHS. This sort of culture developing in the republic will make it very difficult for a reunification referendum to win, even if the population of NI became 55% catholic in coming years.
 

AlterEgo

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There does increasingly seem to be a whiff of "Peoples Republic" to the Republic of Ireland.

A small minority of the catholic population are actually unionists and others wouldn't vote for reunufication for fear of losing the NHS. This sort of culture developing in the republic will make it very difficult for a reunification referendum to win, even if the population of NI became 55% catholic in coming years.
You think a unification referendum would be “difficult to win” in the Republic?. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves!
 

21C101

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You think a unification referendum would be “difficult to win” in the Republic?. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves!
No, a unification referendum would be difficult to win in the north, even if the demographic trends see a 55% catholic population in the north in coming years, for the reasons I stated.
 

21C101

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Ah, I misread! Sorry!
The only way I could imagine the south not voting for it is if they fully appreciated the financial burden if it happened. But as with German reunification in West Germany, I suspect it would make little difference.o
 
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