Avanti West Coast cancel last service for 'Off Peak' tickets from London to Manchester

[Starmill]

Times journalist Hannah Al-Othman was refused boarding this afternoon at London Euston to the 1520 service to Manchester Piccadilly among many other customers:

Shockingly bad stuff from Avanti trains. Apparently the 15.20 London - Manchester train is now a peak service. Turning loads of people away with off-peak tickets, saying they have to wait until 7pm. That means the last daytime off-peak service is… 14.35, so… lunchtime.

https://twitter.com/HannahAlOthman/status/1483097008860762117?t=bg0KOvHT5AFN8KgTFbSWXA&

However, it sounds like after arguing her case, she was permitted to travel.

She's not exactly correct about the cause of the problem, attributing it to the barred times being made earlier, but it's a similar issue; what's happened is that the last service on which an off peak ticket may be used is cancelled. Avanti cancelled the train with just five days' notice, and the following one is at a time which is usually barred, hence the number of people being refused. The reporter is correct to point out that this means that the last service on which off peak tickets can be used is now the 1435.

It sounds like Avanti West Coast may have forgotten to brief their revenue staff that off peak tickets need to be accepted on later trains. Unless of course they're genuinely suggesting that customers sit at the station for four hours, which seems unlikely.

I also notice that what was until recently the 1459 to Birmingham New Street is no longer running either.

 

[Watershed]

Times journalist Hannah Al-Othman was refused boarding this afternoon at London Euston to the 1520 service to Manchester Piccadilly among many other customers:



However, it sounds like after arguing her case, she was permitted to travel.

She's not exactly correct about the cause of the problem, attributing it to the barred times being made earlier, but it's a similar issue; what's happened is that the last service on which an off peak ticket may be used is cancelled. Avanti cancelled the train with just five days' notice, and the following one is at a time which is usually barred, hence the number of people being refused. The reporter is correct to point out that this means that the last service on which off peak tickets can be used is now the 1435.

It sounds like Avanti West Coast may have forgotten to brief their revenue staff that off peak tickets need to be accepted on later trains. Unless of course they're genuinely suggesting that customers sit at the station for four hours, which seems unlikely.

I also notice that what was until recently the 1459 to Birmingham New Street is no longer running either.

This highlights, once again, how ludicrous it is for trains departing at 3pm to be subject to "peak time" restrictions. Particularly given current demand levels and patterns.

It's never been about managing demand, quite the opposite in fact (there would have been no need for a relief train to Manchester at the start of the Off-Peak period otherwise). It's always just been about the money - forcing time-sensitive travellers to pay an ordinate fare or participate in the highly unpredictable game of Advances.

It's a poor showing - though hardly surprising - for Avanti to fail to brief staff to accept tickets on the next available service, where passengers have booked on a now-cancelled service.

The behaviour of the DfT - channeled through its minions, the TOCs, in actions such as drastically cutting the timetable under the pretence of Covid - leaves the distinct impression they're trying to put the railway in a cycle of terminal decline.

 

[Kite159]

Unless of course they're genuinely suggesting that customers sit at the station for four hours, which seems unlikely.

Wouldn't put it past some highers up in First Group/Avanti to be thinking along those lines for holders of off-peak tickets, they should just buy anytime tickets if they want that sort of flexibility or over the top for advance tickets.

 

[Starmill]

Wouldn't put it past some highers up in First Group/Avanti to be thinking along those lines for holders of off-peak tickets, they should just buy anytime tickets if they want that sort of flexibility or over the top for advance tickets.

It would be very interesting to see if they paid compensation for a delay of 3h 40!

 

[Kite159]

It would be very interesting to see if they paid compensation for a delay of 3h 40!

Knowing first group they will probably claim nothing is due as the train was cancelled from the timetable the day beforehand, even though it breaks contract law.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Off Peak tickets from London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly, certainly those Mon-Thurs, haven't normally been allowed on Virgin/Avanti trains after 1500 (until much later in the afternoon) for some time, have they?

Did the journo have a reservation on some earlier train that's recently now been cancelled, after buying her ticket, or maybe just hadn't checked the current timetable?

 

[Starmill]

Off Peak tickets from London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly, certainly those Mon-Thurs, haven't normally been allowed on Virgin/Avanti trains after 1500 (until much later in the afternoon) for some time, have they?

Did the journo have a reservation on some earlier train that's recently now been cancelled, after buying her ticket, or just hadn't checked the current timetable?

As per the first post, the as was 1456 service was cancelled.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

As per the first post, the as was 1456 service was cancelled.

Apologies. Couldn't see a mention to any 1456 service.

 

[Starmill]

Apologies. Couldn't see a mention to any 1456 service.

I didn't actually give its time because it is usually the 1500 service, and has sometimes run at a slightly different time, or, currently, not at all. So I didn't think it would disambiguate very much. I could have referred to it more correctly as 1H32 I suppose but then people would have had to go and look it up to see what I really meant.

It ran on Thursday and Friday last week but it's not running this week.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Starmill. Thanks for clarifying. Still am of the opinion that the journo has rocked up for some Manchester service at Euston today without checking that it's still currently running, simply because it has in the past. Happy to reconsider this point of view as appropriate.

 

[Starmill]

@Starmill. Thanks for clarifying. Still am of the opinion that the journo has rocked up for some Manchester service at Euston today without checking that it's still currently running, simply because it has in the past. Happy to reconsider this point of view as appropriate.

Are you also of the opinion that it's reasonable on the part of Avanti to cancel the usual 1500 train and tell people to get the 1435 or wait until 1900 instead?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Are you also of the opinion that it's reasonable on the part of Avanti to cancel the usual 1500 train and tell people to get the 1435 or wait until 1900 instead?

Not really, but we are where we are just now.

 

[Starmill]

Not really, but we are where we are just now.

Indeed we are. It's a shame people's train is cancelled. But you agree that Avanti ought to do all they can to minimise the inconvenience to customers, such as putting them on the next train..?

 

[Trackman]

@Starmill. Thanks for clarifying. Still am of the opinion that the journo has rocked up for some Manchester service at Euston today without checking that it's still currently running, simply because it has in the past. Happy to reconsider this point of view as appropriate.

That's the way I see it too.
It's the way it goes, check before travelling advice- it's not a 'get out clause'.
Obviously it would be different with an Advance ticket purchased a while back.

Indeed we are. It's a shame people's train is cancelled. But you agree that Avanti ought to do all they can to minimise the inconvenience to customers, such as putting them on the next train..?

Well, I'd let them on if the train wasn't completely rammed.
Common-sense approach to situation ...? Look after the customer???

 

[Watershed]

It's the way it goes, check before travelling advice- it's not a 'get out clause'.

Or course - there is no inherent human right to travel to Manchester at 3pm on an Off-Peak ticket.

However that doesn't mean it's unreasonable to expect some level of alternative provision when TOCs cut the timetable as drastically as has happened here. Particularly so when that cut is for financial reasons. Allowing travel on the next service would seem entirely appropriate in the circumstances.

Obviously it would be different with an Advance ticket purchased a while back.

It would be 'different' even if you had bought a walk-up ticket and had done so a week ago (at which point you could still have been sold a ticket for the now-cancelled service).

 

[Wolfie]

Knowing first group they will probably claim nothing is due as the train was cancelled from the timetable the day beforehand, even though it breaks contract law.

Straight to small claims court then.

 

[Starmill]

Or course - there is no inherent human right to travel to Manchester at 3pm on an Off-Peak ticket.

However that doesn't mean it's unreasonable to expect some level of alternative provision when TOCs cut the timetable as drastically as has happened here. Particularly so when that cut is for financial reasons. Allowing travel on the next service would seem entirely appropriate in the circumstances.


It would be 'different' even if you had bought a walk-up ticket and had done so a week ago (at which point you could still have been sold a ticket for the now-cancelled service).

Indeed. Avanti are being publicly subsidised to deliver this service, it's sensible to expect that the most basic of basics, being allowed on the train, is something they get right for everyone, all the time.

 

[Wolfie]

Not really, but we are where we are just now.

Sue every time. That's where we are just now....

 

[island]

Straight to small claims court then.

As you well know, that is neither sensible nor compliant with CPRs.

 

[robbeech]

It would be very interesting to see if they paid compensation for a delay of 3h 40!

Not without a fight, even with an itinerary.

Knowing first group they will probably claim nothing is due as the train was cancelled from the timetable the day beforehand, even though it breaks contract law.

This is how the railway operates, there’s nobody to bring them to account.

That's the way I see it too.
It's the way it goes, check before travelling advice- it's not a 'get out clause'.
Obviously it would be different with an Advance ticket purchased a while back.

Well, I'd let them on if the train wasn't completely rammed.
Common-sense approach to situation ...? Look after the customer???

I’m sorry to inform you that you have not been successful this time.

 

[Peter0124]

If a train you booked in advance is cancelled, isn't it generally advised to get the one before OR after? Therefore I believe the 1520 should be an off-peak train whilst the 1500 doesn't run.
As it is unfair for those whom cannot make the 1435 but could previously make the 1500.

 

[30907]

If a train you booked in advance is cancelled, isn't it generally advised to get the one before OR after? Therefore I believe the 1520 should be an off-peak train whilst the 1500 doesn't run.
As it is unfair for those whom cannot make the 1435 but could previously make the 1500.

That is the general practice with service disruption - but not with planned timetable alterations.
In this case, though, given the short notice, Avanti should permit the use of the next appropriate train (which for Offpeak could be the 1507 Liverpool to spread the loading).

 

[Starmill]

That is the general practice with service disruption - but not with planned timetable alterations.

The amusing thing is that if the customer had an Advance ticket Avanti would have no choice whatsoever but to permit travel on their next service, regardless of it being planned before 2200 the day before.

 

[Jim the Jim]

@Starmill. Thanks for clarifying. Still am of the opinion that the journo has rocked up for some Manchester service at Euston today without checking that it's still currently running, simply because it has in the past. Happy to reconsider this point of view as appropriate.

Or, she bought the ticket off a website a week ago, at which point the website was telling her there was a train at 14:56, and reasonably assumed that the train would be running - or that if it wasn't that the company would accommodate her on the next one at no extra charge. As, apparently, did plenty of other people. In 99.9% of cases, those assumptions would be the correct ones.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Or, she bought the ticket off a website a week ago, at which point the website was telling her there was a train at 14:56, and reasonably assumed that the train would be running - or that if it wasn't that the company would accommodate her on the next one at no extra charge.

Didn't the journo blag her way on to the 1520 anyway?

 

[Starmill]

Didn't the journo blag her way on to the 1520 anyway?

Does that mean that Avanti are in some way less wrong?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Does that mean that Avanti are in some way less wrong?

No idea. Just get the feeling that we're possibly only hearing part of the story.

 

[Trackman]

Short statement from Avanti today:
(From the MEN)

"Given it was a late timetable change a few customers will have been booked to travel on the 1456.
"As this is no longer running these customers will be allowed to travel on the train before or after, and in the latter example not charged extra even though the 1520 is a peak service."

 

[Mcr Warrior]

That seems to be a result for passengers although a reduced service provision between London and Manchester for the next few weeks isn't ideal...

Full story (that @Trackman quoted from) here...

Why trains from London to Manchester after 2.35pm just got more expensive

Passengers will now have to catch a train 30 minutes earlier if they want to make the off-peak window

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Anything official yet from Avanti rather than a quote in an online newspaper story?

 

[Kite159]

The amusing thing is that if the customer had an Advance ticket Avanti would have no choice whatsoever but to permit travel on their next service, regardless of it being planned before 2200 the day before.

Avanti might say one thing.

The gateline staff at Euston might have other ideas. They do have history of being awkward at times