Avanti West Coast cancellations

[Bald Rick]

If the number of staff willing to work weekends has dropped from 300 to 50, then the logical solution is just to replace them with full time staff and end rest day working. You cant build a timetable around giving staff the opportunity to earn the extra pay if not enough of them are willing to take up the entitlement.

Good thing you’re not running the company, you’d end up with next to no drivers at all

Well it seems to be precisely what’s happening, ie the timetable is being built around no rest day working for the foreseeable future.

I must admit I’m less than optimistic for the 4tph timetable.

The main reason being, North of Preston the timetable remains largely the same (it’s currently 1 Glasgow per hour and one Edinburgh per 2 hours, that will not change) which inevitably means more cancellations and disruptions.

Everything Avanti north of Preston is driven by Preston, Polmadie and Edinburgh drivers. With only 1.5 / hr rather than the base plan of 2/hr, there is already a 25% reduction in the base workload. Also, the schools in Scotland go back next week, and there will be fewer drivers on leave as a result, meaning more will be available for these services.

 

[LowLevel]

So your saying no one would work without guaranteed overtime hours? How does every other industry cope?
The only other industries which have guaranteed overtime the staff are contractually obliged to take up a minimum number of hours per month, and this is usually seen as a bad thing not a good thing forcing staff to work weekends or late nights even if they dont want too.

TOCS are going out of the way to offer a perk but the lack of take up by staff means the perk is hurting passengers. We are faced with use it or lose it and just accept fixed working hours per week.

They're not going out of their way to offer a perk, they don't have much of a choice between offering it or cutting the service, despite what Shapps said about cutting off overtime (another untruth? Nice).

They did it this way because it worked on their terms. Suddenly it all goes wrong, and down goes the ship.

A perk is a benefit of employment in addition to your wages. Rest day work in the form of overtime is an exchange of services, cash for time, with the benefit for the employer of requiring fewer full time equivalents. A perk is not a roster clerk ringing me up begging me to help run the Saturday night train service when I want to be down the pub.

Some people may like overtime, but calling it a perk is a stretch.

It also isn't guaranteed, it is a matter of current circumstances. Sometimes I might want a bit of overtime for whatever reason and it's not available. Such is life.

 

[Failed Unit]

LNER utilise Driver Managers to operate their services when Aslef drivers are on strike, hence such a minimal service.

And now the attached letter has been sent to Grant Shapps, signed by Andy Burnham, Sadiq Khan, deploring the situation at Avanti and asking for the contract to be withdrawn from Avanti if suitable assurances are not given.

What is frustrating is Avanti are still getting paid the same. it is us (the taxpayers) that are losing.

 

[td97]

then the logical solution is just to replace them with full time staff and end rest day working

It is much cheaper for the TOC to employ (say) 500 drivers who work 40 hours per week than 570 who work 35 hours per week. The same number of working hours are achieved, but overhead/training costs are reduced massively. Hence why rest day working has dominated in this industry where training and overheads are hugely expensive compared to others. It is the cheapest solution, until industrial relations turn sour.

Well it seems to be precisely what’s happening, ie the timetable is being built around no rest day working for the foreseeable future.

As is also the case at least at Northern, TPE and XC (but obviously TPE still cannot deliver their reduced timetable). The DfT seem very content prolonging the reduced timetables there. Whether the London influence may change this course on Avanti remains unknown.

 

[david1212]

I am travelling Chiltern to London mid-morning on Friday then back Monday afternoon.

If I have to stand or even worse can not board Avanti will really be in my bad book ......

Chiltern running minimum length formations / ' sweating the assets ' with stock already can cause significant problems.

 

[Dryce]

They did it this way because it worked on their terms. Suddenly it all goes wrong, and down goes the ship.

If the unions really wanted it to go because it was an insufferable burden then they'd fall over themselves it get rid of it - give it away - with no need for an employer concession - and they'd willingly adapt working practices to get rid of it.

This is my itinery for Thursday; How confident can I been that the Avanti train timetabled will run? All I've seen from manchester to London is "Sold Out" AKA "Don't even bother" but as this is on the Trainline timetable, is it secure?

​

My jaded experience of Avanti over the last couple of months is that despite the cancellations and terminated services they are using a bit of brain power most of the time to try and make sure that passengers who have a cancelled service (or service stopping short) can use the next service. The problem with using them right now is uncertainty and compounded delays and the discomfort of standing.

The train you're on is the 1840 from Glasgow and it tends to to run OK to Preston from what I have seen. Things tend to get a it more variable (delays, carrying passengers from other cancelled services, and making extra stops) after Preston when heading south.

What is frustrating is Avanti are still getting paid the same. it is us (the taxpayers) that are losing.

Well what's frustrating is that everybody is being paid the same by the taxpayer - if Avanti walked away it's not as if all the people involved in the current debacle change as well.

Though it de-facto is if my experience is anything to go by - I've now used it 3 times and been charged for it once - if the train is overcrowded or very late they just don't bother, and there's no facility to pay for an SP upgrade online or at a booking office (only to buy a dedicated Advance), it can only be paid on board.

Oddly I would have concurred with this - most journeys I have made in the last couple of months- no ticket checks.

But oddly in the last two weeks they seem much more proactive.

I'm not sure if this is just specific train managers being more diligent so random or there has been an instruction from on high so systematic.

 

[185143]

They’re both First TOC’s - is there any reason why one can’t just go to Edinburgh and one can’t just go to Glasgow?

Inconvenient? Perhaps - but it would help to reallocate resources and prioritise within each company to ensure a useable service to both cities.

That's essentially what happened during Lockdown 1, at least.

TPE ran Preston-Edinburgh with one peak time train to and from Manchester, which I think went to Glasgow to cycle units between Polmadie and Longsight.

Avanti IIRC all but abandoned Edinburgh and focused on Glasgow.

 

[tomuk]

What is frustrating is Avanti are still getting paid the same. it is us (the taxpayers) that are losing.

Are they? I'm not aware of the exact details of their ERMA but I believe there was both a fixed fee and a performance 'bonus' are they still getting that?

 

[CyrusWuff]

I am travelling Chiltern to London mid-morning on Friday then back Monday afternoon.

If I have to stand or even worse can not board Avanti will really be in my bad book ......

Chiltern running minimum length formations / ' sweating the assets ' with stock already can cause significant problems.

Chiltern can only run what the DfT will allow them to run, and with their timetable thinned out (again at the DfT's behest) there's less scope for adjusting formations during the day compared to the pre-Covid timetable.

 

[185]

Last Euston - Manchester was cancelled again tonight. Can only agree with the Mayors that removing FirstGroup from AWC is the sensible way out of this.

 

[C J Snarzell]

Last night's Manchester Evening News stated Mayor Andy Burnham, City Council Leader Bev Craig and Sadiq Khan (London's Mayor) are all sending their own letters of complaint to Grant Shaaps about what is going on with AWC. It looks like this is now getting very political.

CJ

 

[gazzaa2]

If the number of staff willing to work weekends has dropped from 300 to 50, then the logical solution is just to replace them with full time staff and end rest day working. You cant build a timetable around giving staff the opportunity to earn the extra pay if not enough of them are willing to take up the entitlement.

Or is it just down to 50 in August? Hot weather and holidays. What will it be next month?

 

[Snow1964]

Last night's Manchester Evening News stated Mayor Andy Burnham, City Council Leader Bev Craig and Sadiq Khan (London's Mayor) are all sending their own letters of complaint to Grant Shaaps about what is going on with AWC. It looks like this is now getting very political.

CJ

The Financial Times was also reporting similar yesterday.

In particular, don’t like withdrawals without consultation, no end date if not temporary, no indication of how they intend to restore full services. And a demand that if not got a plan to get back to full service, they do not get a renewal upon contract expiry in October

 

[gazzaa2]

The Financial Times was also reporting similar yesterday.

In particular, don’t like withdrawals without consultation, no end date if not temporary, no indication of how they intend to restore full services. And a demand that if not got a plan to get back to full service, they do not get a renewal upon contract expiry in October

The problem is we're getting to the state where things not working properly in this country is normalised. Avanti thus merely become one symptom of a wider problem for not being able to run a proper train service.

 

[Falcon1200]

That's essentially what happened during Lockdown 1, at least.

TPE ran Preston-Edinburgh with one peak time train to and from Manchester, which I think went to Glasgow to cycle units between Polmadie and Longsight.

Avanti IIRC all but abandoned Edinburgh and focused on Glasgow.

What Avanti did during Lockdown 1 was withdraw the entire Euston/Scotland via the West Midlands service, which ran hourly and alternated between Glasgow and Edinburgh. They have since re-instated the two-hourly Edinburgh service but not the equivalent Glasgows, therefore Avanti are now (in theory) providing a full pre-Covid service to Edinburgh but only two-thirds to Glasgow !

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Financial Times was also reporting similar yesterday.
In particular, don’t like withdrawals without consultation, no end date if not temporary, no indication of how they intend to restore full services. And a demand that if not got a plan to get back to full service, they do not get a renewal upon contract expiry in October

But how would any alternative operator (eg OLR) restore the timetable without a rest day working agreement that the DfT is unwilling to approve?

What Avanti did during Lockdown 1 was withdraw the entire Euston/Scotland via the West Midlands service, which ran hourly and alternated between Glasgow and Edinburgh. They have since re-instated the two-hourly Edinburgh service but not the equivalent Glasgows, therefore Avanti are now (in theory) providing a full pre-Covid service to Edinburgh but only two-thirds to Glasgow !

But that is because TPE are (or were) concentrating on their Glasgow services from Manchester/Preston.
The Covid timetable north of Preston was jointly managed.
At its lowest, Avanti ran a 2-hourly Birmingham-Chester Voyager service to connect into the Glasgow direct service at Crewe, and then later sent this train to Preston and eventually Euston-Birmingham-Preston-Blackpool.

 

[ivanhoe]

If Avanti were to be stripped of running the West Coast, do the current problems go away or are we still left with current situation?

 

[Snow1964]

If Avanti were to be stripped of running the West Coast, do the current problems go away or are we still left with current situation?

The basic problem of lack of sufficient number of drivers is still there

There are 2 potential fixes :
1) got to employ more, but by time taken on and trained this isn’t a quick fix
2) Short term could incentivise the drivers to volunteer for overtime (by offering extra money, bonuses etc)

But not clear who would fund it, so solution can only be achieved by funding it

 

[SJN]

But how would any alternative operator (eg OLR) restore the timetable without a rest day working agreement that the DfT is unwilling to approve?


But that is because TPE are (or were) concentrating on their Glasgow services from Manchester/Preston.
The Covid timetable north of Preston was jointly managed.
At its lowest, Avanti ran a 2-hourly Birmingham-Chester Voyager service to connect into the Glasgow direct service at Crewe, and then later sent this train to Preston and eventually Euston-Birmingham-Preston-Blackpool.

They have a rest day work agreement in place at Avanti. At the moment the staff don’t wish to work their rest days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well what's frustrating is that everybody is being paid the same by the taxpayer - if Avanti walked away it's not as if all the people involved in the current debacle change as well.

This is a problem with TUPE which is otherwise a good thing. I have for a while thought its scope should not extend to "people who have a significant input into organisational policy or approach", or similar. It is intended to protect the little guy, really, but what it in part does is makes it hard to get rid of bad management.

 

[Moonshot]

If Avanti were to be stripped of running the West Coast, do the current problems go away or are we still left with current situation?

OLR took over my TOC, and things have got worse. Whilst the headlines are being taken by Avanti, other TOCs have issues as well, mainly around staff. The overall service offering right across the UK is nowhere near as good as it should be. Until employees can buy into a vision, it's not going to get better anytime soon

 

[RT4038]

The basic problem of lack of sufficient number of drivers is still there

There are 2 potential fixes :
1) got to employ more, but by time taken on and trained this isn’t a quick fix
2) Short term could incentivise the drivers to volunteer for overtime (by offering extra money, bonuses etc)

But not clear who would fund it, so solution can only be achieved by funding it

3) Timetable fewer trains, so the public know what service is going to run.

 

[Bald Rick]

The basic problem of lack of sufficient number of drivers is still there

There are 2 potential fixes :
1) got to employ more, but by time taken on and trained this isn’t a quick fix
2) Short term could incentivise the drivers to volunteer for overtime (by offering extra money, bonuses etc)

But not clear who would fund it, so solution can only be achieved by funding it

its train crew, not just drivers, and Avanti have over 200 of them in training, with more waiting to start.

with no rest days being worked, and a need to complete training, the solution is to free up the time of the ‘trainers’ to get the training done. that means removing trains from the timetable. Which is what is being done.

 

[74A]

If the number of staff willing to work weekends has dropped from 300 to 50, then the logical solution is just to replace them with full time staff and end rest day working. You cant build a timetable around giving staff the opportunity to earn the extra pay if not enough of them are willing to take up the entitlement.

Avanti have said 250 drivers are in training but obviously it will take time.

 

[03_179]

When is the estimated date that this change will end ?

Planning a trip in Mid October to Glasgow so need to know whether to go via the ECML or not.

 

[GordonT]

When is the estimated date that this change will end ?

Planning a trip in Mid October to Glasgow so need to know whether to go via the ECML or not.

.Go via the ECML anyway.

 

[03_179]

Go via the ECML anyway.

.

It'll take fractionally long on a Sunday (9th Oct).
BUT there are NO Thameslink trains from Croydon to St Pancras to be able to get up there for it (08:48 from KGX). At least the Euston trains I can get to Victoria that early for the 08:48 from EUS.

 

[Moonshot]

They have a rest day work agreement in place at Avanti. At the moment the staff don’t wish to work their rest days.

What are the terms of the RDW agreement?

 

[geoffk]

It is much cheaper for the TOC to employ (say) 500 drivers who work 40 hours per week than 570 who work 35 hours per week. The same number of working hours are achieved, but overhead/training costs are reduced massively. Hence why rest day working has dominated in this industry where training and overheads are hugely expensive compared to others. It is the cheapest solution, until industrial relations turn sour.

As is also the case at least at Northern, TPE and XC (but obviously TPE still cannot deliver their reduced timetable). The DfT seem very content prolonging the reduced timetables there. Whether the London influence may change this course on Avanti remains unknown.

From a snapshot of yesterday's departures from London terminals, Avanti had 19 full or partial cancellations (that's on a reduced timetable), whereas GWR had just one, LNER and EMR none. The obvious question is why is Avanti so bad when the others can manage to perform well or adequately.

 

[SJN]

What are the terms of the RDW agreement?

I don’t know. I don’t work there.