Avanti West Coast New Stock - Hitachi chosen

[LNW-GW Joint]

To me the Birmingham services seem less busy than the other ones, as the frequency is so good and there are LNWR and Chiltern alternatives as well. I assume this route gets many of the 9 car trains?

The trouble is that the hourly Scotland service messes up the local balance in the West Midlands, as it has a long journey time with different peaks and can get very crowded, carrying overspill from the direct services.
Sometimes it also carries a Shrewsbury Voyager portion.
But generally the theory was the 11-car would be prioritised on the hourly routes (Scotland, Liverpool).
In the last few years Virgin also changed the seating in the 9-car trains to increase the amount of standard seating at the expense of 1st.
A 9-car now has 6 standard cars and 3 1st, while an 11-car has 7 standard and 4 1st.

 

[DerekC]

Yes unfortunately the DfT still dont listen about the seats being uncomfortable for hundreds of passengers

DfT was (and probably still is) locked into seats per metre of train and per train path. I suspect that was an overreaction to the "Operation Princess" cockup where somebody thought it a good idea to have lots of short trains with not many seats running all over the network.

 

[Class 170101]

Something to note that there would be nothing for diversions once the Voyagers go.

It will be buses north of Preston all the way to Glasgow and Edinburgh dependant upon the block.

 

[JonathanH]

Something to note that there would be nothing for diversions once the Voyagers go.

It will be buses north of Preston all the way to Glasgow and Edinburgh dependant upon the block.

It already is, even with Voyagers.

 

[Class 170101]

It already is, even with Voyagers.

To a point yes but Virgin did send their Voyagers via the GSW fairly regularly. Clearly with fewer Bi-mode trains compared to the number of Voyagers being removed will result in no off wire diversions.

 

[swt_passenger]

Something to note that there would be nothing for diversions once the Voyagers go.

It will be buses north of Preston all the way to Glasgow and Edinburgh dependant upon the block.

Why can’t the bi-modes operate diversions?

 

[JonathanH]

Why can’t the bi-modes operate diversions?

Because there will only be enough to maintain the services to North Wales / Shrewsbury which need them (and it tends not the be the practice to remove the through services to London to just run them on the non-electrified bits of the route).

 

[swt_passenger]

Because there will only be enough to maintain the services to North Wales / Shrewsbury which need them.

Ok, that makes sense. I see others reckon they wouldn’t use the Voyagers anyway nowadays.

 

[DMU180]

Avanti May reintroduce 57's hauling Pendolinos! Doubt it somehow, but I can live in hope!

 

[Class 170101]

Avanti May reintroduce 57's hauling Pendolinos! Doubt it somehow, but I can live in hope!

But will probably have to pay Alsthom a lot of money as the couplings won't stand up to it for regular use. Rescue use was within tolerance but regular haulage wasn't planned for as I seem to read. In any event are there (m)any 57s with their couplings still attached to them?

 

[popeter45]

But will probably have to pay Alsthom a lot of money as the couplings won't stand up to it for regular use. Rescue use was within tolerance but regular haulage wasn't planned for as I seem to read. In any event are there (m)any 57s with their couplings still attached to them?

yes quite a few 57's still have the system or at least enough of it left to re-add it
they used to pull the Pendolinos to holyhead quite regularly till they lost the XC franchise

 

[DMU180]

But will probably have to pay Alsthom a lot of money as the couplings won't stand up to it for regular use. Rescue use was within tolerance but regular haulage wasn't planned for as I seem to read. In any event are there (m)any 57s with their couplings still attached to them?

At one point there were regular 57 hauled Pendolino workings with Virgin. Pendolino ran to Crewe then hooked up to a 57 which hauled it to Holyhead so the couplers must be up to the job. Alstom can't have many concerns if it was a regular working.
Yes there are still quite a few 57's with couplings, Virgin still had thunderbird locos at Rugby, Crewe and Carlisle, which I assume Avanti will continue.

 

[The Ham]

At one point there were regular 57 hauled Pendolino workings with Virgin. Pendolino ran to Crewe then hooked up to a 57 which hauled it to Holyhead so the couplers must be up to the job. Alstom can't have many concerns if it was a regular working.
Yes there are still quite a few 57's with couplings, Virgin still had thunderbird locos at Rugby, Crewe and Carlisle, which I assume Avanti will continue.

Which if you're looking at using just for diversions (as there's fewer 221's) could work and would allow your Thunderbird Locos a good run to blow away the cobwebs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Something to note that there would be nothing for diversions once the Voyagers go.

Er, the bi-modes? They could be freed up, just like at present, by truncating the Holyheads to Crewe. Not as many of them I'll give you, but they have higher capacity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because there will only be enough to maintain the services to North Wales / Shrewsbury which need them (and it tends not the be the practice to remove the through services to London to just run them on the non-electrified bits of the route).

Er, yes it does. VTWC have done this on a number of occasions.

 

[JonathanH]

Er, yes it does. VTWC have done this on a number of occasions.

Recently? Historically they did do this but policy has changed over time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Recently? Historically they did do this but policy has changed over time.

They've moved away from doing diversions, certainly, but that has nothing to do with being opposed to lopping the Holyheads (this still gets done in the case of the emergency two-track timetable[1] having to be implemented or for engineering works when capacity is reduced) and everything to do with them not thinking diversions are the optimal solution at all even if the Pendolinos were all bi-modes.

[1] The standard approach is to lop one Manchester, one Brum, Holyhead back to Crewe and both the Tring stoppers, redistributing the calls in other services. I've never quite got round to making a note of which ones, but I think the Manchester is the one that stops at MKC.

 

[a_c_skinner]

The simple fact is that we've stopped doing diversions (except for ECML north of Newcastle blocks); we've not the ability to do it - stock, paths on other routes, route knowledge and so on. Locomotive haulage of electric stock was always a pipe dream, even routine hauls to Holyhead were not seamless. We should be able to do this for planned blocks; passengers seem to much prefer longer rail trips to coach journeys, frankly they don't see why they pay rail fares for coach travel.
The ECML diversions work, perhaps because up to now their electric stock has had a big hook and a pair of buffers at each end.

 

[JonathanH]

The ECML diversions work, perhaps because up to now their electric stock has had a big hook and a pair of buffers at each end.

...and will work in the future because a lot of their relevant long distance services will continue to be operated with units which are self-powered. 13 9-car 800s and 10 5-car 800s should be able to maintain the current set of ECML diversions without the need for locomotives, buffers and hooks.

However, the ECML diversions are now rather easier to implement than the non-electrified WCML diversions, not just from a traction point of view.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Indeed. Incidentally I'd forgotten via Lincoln diversions and via Littlehampton on the Brighton line, but the basic point is valid rail thinks "busses" first. There must be other examples too.

 

[TRAX]

Info just in, the AT300s ordered by Avanti will be 800s and 801s.

 

[Mikey C]

Info just in, the AT300s ordered by Avanti will be 800s and 801s.

Reusing existing numbers for a minor variant, how old fashioned

 

[TRAX]

Reusing existing numbers for a minor variant, how old fashioned

About time we resumed doing that !

 

[Class 170101]

The simple fact is that we've stopped doing diversions (except for ECML north of Newcastle blocks); we've not the ability to do it - stock, paths on other routes, route knowledge and so on. Locomotive haulage of electric stock was always a pipe dream, even routine hauls to Holyhead were not seamless. We should be able to do this for planned blocks; passengers seem to much prefer longer rail trips to coach journeys, frankly they don't see why they pay rail fares for coach travel.
The ECML diversions work, perhaps because up to now their electric stock has had a big hook and a pair of buffers at each end.

Indeed. Incidentally I'd forgotten via Lincoln diversions, but the basic point is valid rail thinks "busses" first.

Also Leeds to York, Doncaster to York via Ferrybridge, York to Newcastle via Stillington or the longer diversion via Sunderland?

West Coast do divert via Manchester to reach Preston due to electrification and I guess around Birmingham if the Trent Valley is blocked. The bit north of Preston has become more controversial as Virgin used to use the S&C and now won't, it seems, preferring the Coach and the M6.

Interestingly they have diverted their Edinburgh services over Christmas via the South Suburban Liner around Edinburgh due to Haymarket closure as have the East Coast and Cross Country but Scotrail haven't done so for their Inverness / Aberdeen services.

 

[Domh245]

Info just in, the AT300s ordered by Avanti will be 800s and 801s.

Reusing existing numbers for a minor variant, how old fashioned

Well, to be more accurate they're identical to the current AT300s rather than the EMR order - numbers not yet confirmed publicly

https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/1203996850992402432

Class numbers not mentioned, but it the identical design to them as opposed to an 802/803/804.

 

[Class 170101]

Er, the bi-modes? They could be freed up, just like at present, by truncating the Holyheads to Crewe. Not as many of them I'll give you, but they have higher capacity.

Not convinced they will have enough trains compared to the number of Voyagers today - remember some of the Voyagers run solely under the wires. These are replaced by Pendolinos displaced from their usual work to allow Voyagers to do diesel diversions.

 

[CR165022]

Are the 221s due to get the Avanti livery or plain white or staying as old virgin, also will the voyagers get different colour doors like grey because surely with the stripes they have on the doors aren't prm

 

[hwl]

Are the 221s due to get the Avanti livery or plain white or staying as old virgin, also will the voyagers get different colour doors like grey because surely with the stripes they have on the doors aren't prm

The doors just have to contrast (tonal rather than just colour) with the rest of the train - stripes can help with that if done right.

 

[transmanche]

The doors just have to contrast (tonal rather than just colour) with the rest of the train - stripes can help with that if done right.

One thing that struck me about the Avanti livery was the different door colours.

Whilst the door colour does contrast with body colour alongside, the passenger doors aren't all the same colour. Some doors are white, next to a dark green bodyside: whilst others are dark green, next to a white bodyside. Does any other TOC do that?

The only other TOC I can recall with different door colours is Grand Central: they use silver for the doors in standard class and gold for the doors of first class. Which I think is rather nice.

 

[Energy]

Do we know what they will call the AT300s? For pendolino and voyager they used the model of train as the name but AT300 doesn't sound great.