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Avanti West Coast: Standard Premium

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Scotrail314209

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Avanti West Coast have put details up on their website about the new third class.

It’s going to be called Standard Premium and will be situated in Coach G on the 11 cars and Coach H on the 9 cars. Doesn’t look likely it’ll be on Voyagers due to them only having one first class carriage.

It seems to me it’s just First Class without the complimentaries, instead you’ll be able to order food via the app to be collected at the Shop or delivered to your seat by a staff member.

What is everybody’s thoughts on this?

 
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Bletchleyite

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Depends on the price. If it is available walk-up and costs no more than about half the price of the relevant Standard ticket (so roughly the same as Weekend First does now) I'm in. I'm all for the European style approach to First Class - roughly 1.5 times the relevant Standard ticket but no freebies, just the extra comfort. I don't overly want the freebies anyway (other than tea/coffee, but that alone isn't worth the increased price of "regular" 1st on a walk-up basis, and I'm not willing to sacrifice flexibility in most cases).

However, I'm not going to decide based on "ask your Train Manager how much it is" then have to do the "walk of shame" when it's too expensive - they are going to have to tell me up front! With only one coach, the best would be being able to reserve it (and ensure a "1 side" seat).
 

185

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Could be to cater for the MPs who are currently drifting around standard class...
 

47271

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Too vague and waffly going by that webpage. And noone's travelling at the moment.

I give it six months, then they'll stick Standard seats in Coach G.
 

philosopher

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Too vague and waffly going by that webpage. And noone's travelling at the moment.

I give it six months, then they'll stick Standard seats in Coach G.
If it is well advertised and the premium is not too much, say £5 from London to Brum or £10 from London to Liverpool or Manchester each way it could work. It would effectively provide a bit of extra revenue for otherwise unused first class seats.

If the premium is too much, say £15 from London to Birmingham then I doubt too many will use it.
 

Bletchleyite

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Too vague and waffly going by that webpage. And noone's travelling at the moment.

I give it six months, then they'll stick Standard seats in Coach G.

I could actually see it unseating "traditional" First Class entirely, myself (which is basically just going back to what First Class was in BR days!). Companies weren't willing to pay for it before COVID, they'll be even less willing to now. The future of 1st is self-upgrading and leisure travel, for which it needs to be cheaper - and taking the expensive elements out of the service proposition (i.e. "proper" food and silver-service) is a good way to do that as you can downstaff quite a bit to just one steward for 1st rather than several.

The same thing happened with airlines - traditional First Class has very close to gone away, with most aircraft only having Business and Economy (and sometimes an intermediate class).
 

Metal_gee_man

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This will either become the Seatfrog solution where a £10 upgrade is possible via the avanti app, they'll sell all the upgrades not seatfrog, there won't be auctions it'll be a first come first serve system and they'll hopefully only sell the correct number of tickets for bums on seats, and they'll get another £300-400 in ticket revenue per train with no perceivable cost because if 1st is underutilised already they're carrying around fresh air and making no money on it

Or they'll actively advertise it and complicate the booking websites with a 3rd class of travel, which is only on their trains, which doesn't align with the other TOCs class levels which is not what the DaFT want they want simpler ticketing
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Does this mean we won’t get proper first through Seatfrog anymore? I’ve had many a nice breakfast on board thanks to that app
 

Scotrail314209

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Whatever the premise, I'm not a fan of it.

The premium to upgrade to First Class on a weekend was enough already. I don't think this will take off as a lot of people seem content in Standard Class anyway.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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I notice how they want to reduce the proper First Class to one and a bit carriages. I said from the start that First Group would cheapen the WCML (and not in the good way) and I am yet to be convinced otherwise.
 

Scotrail314209

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It basically is "traditional" Weekend First (i.e. a seat and nowt else) but on a weekday, no?



Weekend First seems to do OK.

I really hope it isn't £30 from Glasgow - Euston, which was the price before. £30 would be too much for a reclining seat and a plug socket.
 

Bletchleyite

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I really hope it isn't £30 from Glasgow - Euston, which was the price before. £30 would be too much for a reclining seat and a plug socket.

Like with a million and one other upgrade type products, there will be people who consider it worth it and people who don't. Being tall and broad, a £60 return upgrade (off peak return £151.50) is pitched about right for me a little below the magic "1.5 times Standard" level. I don't care for the freebies, I'd rather take my own food, and tea is hardly expensive.
 

Scotrail314209

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Like with a million and one other upgrade type products, there will be people who consider it worth it and people who don't. Being tall and broad, a £60 return upgrade (off peak return £151.50) is pitched about right for me a little below the magic "1.5 times Standard" level. I don't care for the freebies, I'd rather take my own food, and tea is hardly expensive.

I only do the upgrade for the freebies, as the crew can be quite generous on the Glasgow - London stretch.
 

Bletchleyite

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I only do the upgrade for the freebies, as the crew can be quite generous on the Glasgow - London stretch.

Fair enough, it'd not be worth it for you, then. I guess we have completely different priorities for 1st - for me it's all about increased comfort (and having a window seat that is also an aisle seat).
 

HarryL

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Is there any idea whether the seating will be that of first class or standard? If it's standard seating then I don't personally see a huge point in it, I'm of the opinion that standard class passengers should be able to pay for hot food normally.
 

Scotrail314209

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Is there any idea whether the seating will be that of first class or standard? If it's standard seating then I don't personally see a huge point in it, I'm of the opinion that standard class passengers should be able to pay for hot food normally.

It looks like it might be the First Class seats as they mention every seat having a plug socket. If they were to fit standard seating it'd be bad.

Wouldn't they just be better converting Coach G on the 11s and H on the 9s to standard?

Fair enough, it'd not be worth it for you, then. I guess we have completely different priorities for 1st - for me it's all about increased comfort (and having a window seat that is also an aisle seat).

Also, whenever I travel on Avanti it's normally very early morning when nothing is open. So it's good for breakfast.
 

Bletchleyite

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It looks like it might be the First Class seats as they mention every seat having a plug socket. If they were to fit standard seating it'd be bad.

It's First Class seating, that's kind of the whole point. Same concept as Eurostar - upgraded seat, non-upgraded service, cheaper than the full thing.

The other concept they could have gone for (which I wouldn't pay for, but I guess you would?) would be "Silver Standard" style, i.e. 2+2 seating (maybe fancied up a bit and lined up to the windows like the Voyager hybrid coach) but full First Class service.

Wouldn't they just be better converting Coach G on the 11s and H on the 9s to standard?

No, because it's not just about capacity (which is fine as it is, really), it's about getting a bit of extra money from upgrades.

Also, whenever I travel on Avanti it's normally very early morning when nothing is open. So it's good for breakfast.

You can always take sandwiches or something. Or buy from the buffet.
 

CyrusWuff

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This has previously been discussed in the Fares & Policy section.

A quick Google search found this thread from October.

Looking on BRFares, the relevant ticket types appear to be of the form nnQ, with the nn being the price level.

Euston to Stafford, for example, has 25Q for Weekday upgrades and 20Q for weekend, priced at £25 and £20 respectively (compared to £25 for Weekend 1st and what appears to be £40 for a Weekday upgrade to full First Class).
 

Wolfie

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Avanti West Coast have put details up on their website about the new third class.

It’s going to be called Standard Premium and will be situated in Coach G on the 11 cars and Coach H on the 9 cars. Doesn’t look likely it’ll be on Voyagers due to them only having one first class carriage.

It seems to me it’s just First Class without the complimentaries, instead you’ll be able to order food via the app to be collected at the Shop or delivered to your seat by a staff member.

What is everybody’s thoughts on this?

Sounds like Eurostar....
 

Scotrail314209

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This has previously been discussed in the Fares & Policy section.

A quick Google search found this thread from October.

Looking on BRFares, the relevant ticket types appear to be of the form nnQ, with the nn being the price level.

Euston to Stafford, for example, has 25Q for Weekday upgrades and 20Q for weekend, priced at £25 and £20 respectively (compared to £25 for Weekend 1st and what appears to be £40 for a Weekday upgrade to full First Class).

I wonder how much it'll be up to Glasgow. £25 from Euston - Stafford seems to be a bit steep imo.

Now I wonder if this means they'll raise the price of weekend first.
 

Bletchleyite

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Euston to Stafford, for example, has 25Q for Weekday upgrades and 20Q for weekend, priced at £25 and £20 respectively (compared to £25 for Weekend 1st and what appears to be £40 for a Weekday upgrade to full First Class).

So I guess on weekdays typically priced at Weekend First rate, and a fiver less on weekends. I think I would go for that on weekdays though I'd go for proper Weekend First on a weekend as I'd easily drink £5 of tea. As mentioned, for me 1.5x or thereabouts is a sweet spot.

I couldn't find any others, I guess they're not all in yet.

Edit: £25/£20 for Liverpool too. Would definitely go for that. I wonder if they are piloting it on that route? It doesn't seem to be in for other routes.
 

James90012

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Interesting concept and worth a punt, if it doesn't pay its way then it's easy enough to remove and revert back.

Very poor web page on it though, many grammar and spelling issues - it barely seems proof-read. Not quite the first impression I was expecting from something advertised as 'premium'!
 

voyagerdude220

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Admittedly I haven't been on a train since pre Covid and I'm sure that for a long period of time demand will be much lower than usual, but surely only having effectively one and a half First Class carriages on 9-car Pendolinos isn't alot of First Class seating for "full First Class" ticket holders?

The main selling points of First Class to me are:

Less crowded.- Even since 9 car Pendolinos reduced First Class capacity, I've occasionally found it difficult to find a seat in First at times and found it to be much more crowded.

Increased comfort/legroom.
Far bigger probability of getting a seat (if I haven't already reserved one or I was unable to change a backwards facing reservation when I get travel sick when sat backwards)

Complimentary food- I think breakfast is very good, but not keen on the evening meals. (I'm aware they've been scrapped for the time being)
 

All Line Rover

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Wouldn't they just be better converting Coach... H on the 9s to standard?
Leaving one toilet for the whole of first class which, as an accessible toilet, doesn't work half the time? Well, that's "luxury"! (We are talking about "luxury", right? That is, better than "premium"?) If it came to this I'd ditch the first class season ticket and switch to standard. "Your reason for not travelling first class?" "Not enough bogs."

We're not talking about 4/5 coach units here. We're talking about min 9 coach trains, with plentiful standard class accommodation, toilets, a buffet. If first class ends up having identical seating to standard premium, but fewer seats, it'll only be there for snobs who don't mind poor quality "free" food.
 

Bletchleyite

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Leaving one toilet for the whole of first class which, as an accessible toilet, doesn't work half the time? Well, that's "luxury"! (We are talking about "luxury", right? That is, better than "premium"?) If it came to this I'd ditch the first class season ticket and switch to standard. "Your reason for not travelling first class?" "Not enough bogs."

You are allowed to walk through to Standard to use the toilet if you want, or is that too dirty for you? :)
 

All Line Rover

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Might as well sit in standard then, eh? It's easy to work at standard class table seats on Pendos. Especially with the current seating arrangements!
 

Bletchleyite

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If first class ends up having identical seating to standard premium, but fewer seats, it'll only be there for snobs who don't mind poor quality "free" food.

If "Standard Premium" becomes more popular than 1st, i.e. people don't value the "freebies" at a higher fare, then "proper" 1st could well go away.

Might as well sit in standard then, eh? It's easy to work at standard class table seats on Pendos. Especially with the current seating arrangements!

How much time during your journeys do you spend on the bog?!
 

All Line Rover

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Maybe Avanti should ask that on the next survey they distribute to pax in first?

If "Standard Premium" becomes more popular than 1st, i.e. people don't value the "freebies" at a higher fare, then "proper" 1st could well go away.

Wouldn't object to that. Some proper simplification that, for once, should result in genuinely lower prices.

Hope the RMT isn't reading this.
 
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