Avanti West Coast: Standard Premium

[Deafdoggie]

In a sense, I think Cabin Crew on budget airlines can be a bit less attentive as I believe they have quotas on what they need to sell. I know this is mostly true for Ryanair but I’m not sure about the others.

It's also true for XC Retail Service Managers, which is why they are up and down with the trolley constantly.

 

[Grumpy Git]

To be honest with regard to tea and coffee I think they should serve it in decently-sized teapots and cafetieres (4-cup size or thereabouts) with milk jug so you can top yourself up as desired. Would also reduce the work.



Yes, and that's (sort of) fine in Standard, but not the way First is marketed.

Well I have on the odd occasion almost finished my breakfast by the time the train had reached Edge Hill.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well I have on the odd occasion almost finished my breakfast by the time the train had reached Edge Hill.

Crikey, did you just lean your head back and tip it in straight off the plate?

 

[Grumpy Git]

Crikey, did you just lean your head back and tip it in straight off the plate?

It was on the Euston - Lime St service!

 

[GS250]

There's also the differences of expectation of those onboard. First class can be a very diverse environment passenger wise. Maybe during the 'peak' hours its a little more stereotypical but from what I've generally experience there are all sorts aboard. I guess the experienced FC business traveller may be happy to have the bare minimum. After all, he/she may be engrossed in their productivity and aren't particularly bothered about the personal touch. Not only that, but the chances are their employer is paying for the ticket so they aren't going to be overly needy. On the other hand, you may have a couple who usually fly Easyjet to Europe but have decided to take the train FC to Edinburgh for a long weekend away. They know its a little pricey but consider it part of the vacation. They've seen adverts on TV where it all looks rather inviting so their levels of expectation of service level will be fairly high I'd say. Of course there will always be exceptions to the rule but I'd say this would be a reliable guideline. For the record I'm a time served FC leisure traveller so sit right in between the two examples above.

I have to say....my own FC experiences have been very favourable on LNER's 'Highland Chieftain'. The 'free' catering took something of a hit during the pandemic but it would appear better quality has been restored very recently. As far as the WCML goes...I was always impressed with the onboard service under Virgin. Both service and catering wise. However....(maybe they haven't had a chance to shine during the pandemic) the quality of complimentary FC catering has been mediocre.

In all instances though, both WCML and ECML, I found the level of customer service to be of an acceptable level.

 

[43066]

No, it wasn't. I was there.

It is very hard to get rid of lazy, incompetent, tardy people who don't pull their weight on the railway. That was all that was about.

Fair enough - clearly I wasn’t there so don’t know. The story you’ve linked to appears to indicate otherwise, however.

I disagree with the view that it’s difficult to get rid of people on the railway, in stark contrast to (for example) the NHS where a friend of mine works in management and openly admits there is a culture to never sack people, even for things that would constitute gross misconduct and lead to summary dismissal in most industries. In fact I can honestly say I’ve seen more people sacked from the railway than my previous industry which had no unionisation at all.

The exception to this might be union reps who (wrongly) probably are harder to get rid of, because there’s inevitably an automatic argument that they’re being targeted for union activities.

I've also seen this happen before. People have been fired due to a sequence of disciplinary issues and the RMT have ballotted for action because it was seen as "unjust" and completely twisted the facts about what they told their members. "Alleged" plays a massive part and can often not be substantiated.

Again, not to dispute your personal experience which may differ to mine, but I’ve never seen things escalate even as far as far as a ballot for action over a dismissal. It just hardly ever happens.

If the staff don't like offering that sort of service, but prefer the "service with a mild scowl" as one might get in economy class on some BA and KLM flights or on the execrable Wizz Air where you get the definite feeling that they think they're doing you a favour by selling you an overpriced cup of lukewarm Nescafe, then they're the wrong staff for the job.

I agree “service with a scowl” is widespread, and ideally we could expect better, but you’re basically then running up against the lack of service culture in the U.K. Can you really expect people who are motivated to deliver true “high end” service like you’d expect in the Ritz to be working as railway customer hosts (or cabin crew for that matter given what they’re paid)? Of course another factor to consider is that on-train service staff aren’t going to be getting tips which acts as a further disincentive to do anything more than the minimum.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree “service with a scowl” is widespread, and ideally we could expect better, but you’re basically then running up against the lack of service culture in the U.K. Can you really expect people who are motivated to deliver true “high end” service like you’d expect in the Ritz to be working as railway customer hosts? Of course another factor to consider is that on-train service staff aren’t going to be getting tips which acts as a further disincentive to do anything more than the minimum.

Aren't they on about £25-30K or thereabouts? Not a huge wage, but it's an absolute king's ransom for "front line" hospitality (most of which is normally minimum wage) and quite a bit more than most cabin crew, and as such the railway should be being very choosy indeed and only employing the very best.

OK, no tips, but not every hospitality environment is conducive to tips. For instance most people don't tip in "order at the bar" gastropubs and restaurants, which is a lot of places these days.

 

[GS250]

Aren't they on about £25-30K or thereabouts? Not a huge wage, but it's an absolute king's ransom for "front line" hospitality (most of which is normally minimum wage) and quite a bit more than most cabin crew, and as such the railway should be being very choosy indeed and only employing the very best.

OK, no tips, but not every hospitality environment is conducive to tips. For instance most people don't tip in "order at the bar" gastropubs and restaurants, which is a lot of places these days.

Both extreme ends of 'shift work' though?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Both extreme ends of 'shift work' though?

Plenty of that in minimum wage hotel work, e.g. turning up at 5am to prepare breakfast, or in a pub not getting away until gone midnight.

I'm not saying that hospitality staff in e.g. pubs shouldn't really get a bit more, I'm just saying that given that the railway are paying at the very high end of hospitality wages (and it's not even a safety critical role unlike cabin crew) they can, and therefore should, be very picky about who they employ and how well they perform.

 

[43066]

Aren't they on about £25-30K or thereabouts? Not a huge wage, but it's an absolute king's ransom for "front line" hospitality (most of which is normally minimum wage) and quite a bit more than most cabin crew, and as such the railway should be being very choosy indeed and only employing the very best.

I’d thought they were on less than that I must admit (I understood more like £20k). Can’t say for sure.

 

[Steddenm]

Currently on a Blackpool North to Euston service in First and they've already been round with a drinks service. I asked if there was anything to eat and was told, in a very matter-of-fact way, "not on this train, we get off at Preston and nobody to take it on, and by the time the oven(?) has warmed up it'll be too late". I did state that the matrix said full first class service and was told "yeah, don't believe that c**p", to which she hurriedly ran back to the galley and then sat there all the way to Preston playing TikTok videos on her phone very loudly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Currently on a Blackpool North to Euston service in First and they've already been round with a drinks service. I asked if there was anything to eat and was told, in a very matter-of-fact way, "not on this train, we get off at Preston and nobody to take it on, and by the time the oven(?) has warmed up it'll be too late". I did state that the matrix said full first class service and was told "yeah, don't believe that c**p", to which she hurriedly ran back to the galley and then sat there all the way to Preston playing TikTok videos on her phone very loudly.

You see, that's exactly what I mean by not a premium attitude. It's factual and well-explained, but it is what I'd expect to hear from the buffet steward in Standard.

It is also under no circumstances acceptable for anyone - particularly staff - to be breaching Byelaw 7 (1) (ii) by playing stuff out loud on their phone. If I were management I would consider that a "tea without biscuits" job. It is not difficult to use headphones.

A proactive premium service, recognising that things go wrong at times, would involve someone going round, giving the explanation apologetically and politely, checking how the booking was made, and arranging a refund down to the Standard Premium fare without needing to be asked to do so.

 

[Steddenm]

You see, that's exactly what I mean by not a premium attitude. It's factual and well-explained, but it is what I'd expect to hear from the buffet steward in Standard.

It is also under no circumstances acceptable for anyone - particularly staff - to be breaching Byelaw 7 (1) (ii) by playing stuff out loud on their phone. If I were management I would consider that a "tea without biscuits" job. It is not difficult to use headphones.

A proactive premium service, recognising that things go wrong at times, would involve someone going round, giving the explanation apologetically and politely, checking how the booking was made, and arranging a refund down to the Standard Premium fare without needing to be asked to do so.

I've already emailed Avanti a complaint. Some of the things she was playing on TikTok were a bit, let's just say not suitable for work, and then somebody phoned her and she was all about "ah let's go and get f***ing wasted tonight, it's £2 drinks at [name of venue] ...PAUSE... f*** that, I'll just take my jacket off" [referring to the fact she was going out straight from work].

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've already emailed Avanti a complaint. Some of the things she was playing on TikTok were a bit, let's just say not suitable for work, and then somebody phoned her and she was all about "ah let's go and get f***ing wasted tonight, it's £2 drinks at [name of venue] ...PAUSE... f*** that, I'll just take my jacket off" [referring to the fact she was going out straight from work].

I think I would refer to my comment about the wrong staff above. She is of course welcome to talk like that outside of work, but not when representing her employer. If she doesn't understand that, she should not be in any customer facing role in any employer. I wouldn't even expect that in Kwik Fit.

 

[43066]

I did state that the matrix said full first class service and was told "yeah, don't believe that c**p", to which she hurriedly ran back to the galley and then sat there all the way to Preston playing TikTok videos on her phone very loudly.

If she was sitting in the galley how did you know what she was playing on her phone?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If she was sitting in the galley how did you know what she was playing on her phone?

The wall is quite thin.

 

[Steddenm]

If she was sitting in the galley how did you know what she was playing on her phone?

You could hear everything. The Pandos between BPN and PRE are quiet as they don't go that fast and, everything could be heard and I was in the seats just before the bulkhead.

 

[bramling]

Fair enough - clearly I wasn’t there so don’t know. The story you’ve linked to appears to indicate otherwise, however.

I disagree with the view that it’s difficult to get rid of people on the railway, in stark contrast to (for example) the NHS where a friend of mine works in management and openly admits there is a culture to never sack people, even for things that would constitute gross misconduct and lead to summary dismissal in most industries. In fact I can honestly say I’ve seen more people sacked from the railway than my previous industry which had no unionisation at all.

The exception to this might be union reps who (wrongly) probably are harder to get rid of, because there’s inevitably an automatic argument that they’re being targeted for union activities.

My place doesn’t function like the above, though there are likely to be structural reasons why this might be the case.

Many aspect of management could be described as being on the fiddle themselves, so it becomes hard to apply performance management across the board without cupboards being opened to find skeletons. For example, in a business unit known to me there’s a manager who comes in for roughly four hours per day (and who, needless to say, has utilised Covid as a means of significantly reducing even from that). He has done various things to staff including touching someone inappropriately at a team event, threatening to “finish off” someone in a meeting in front of 15 people, and making continual unwanted references to the IRA to an Irish member of staff. Needless to say, the next level down love this as it allows total freedom to get away with virtually anything, save an open & shut safety-related screwup.

Union reps fall into two boxes. Some get on very well with management as they are a useful resource. This leaves the “awkward” ones, and what tends to happen is attempts will be made to get rid of them as and when an opportunity arises, which is fine except that these opportunities tend to be partial ones, so there’s a chance someone will try to make a case which isn’t quite there, so what you get is much time off the job whilst the process takes place, then either thrown out, thrown out on appeal, or in some cases a tribunal.

The “70s” are certainly alive and well, but I wouldn’t put this down to the unions, but more to dubious recruitment.

The devil favours their own?

 

[mmh]

A frequent occurrence in heavily unionised workplaces where any attempt to manage or monitor performance gets industrial action threatened.

That is just not true. Have you ever worked in a unionised workplace? What you're describing is more like the the script of a poor 70s sitcom than what actually happens.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Many aspect of management could be described as being on the fiddle themselves, so it becomes hard to apply performance management across the board without cupboards being opened to find skeletons. For example, in a business unit known to me there’s a manager who comes in for roughly four hours per day (and who, needless to say, has utilised Covid as a means of significantly reducing even from that). He has done various things to staff including touching someone inappropriately at a team event, threatening to “finish off” someone in a meeting in front of 15 people, and making continual unwanted references to the IRA to an Irish member of staff. Needless to say, the next level down love this as it allows total freedom to get away with virtually anything, save an open & shut safety-related screwup.

Wow.

How are they still in a job? Or more to the point, not in a cell?

That is an utterly rotten culture that must be weeded out urgently.

 

[43066]

Many aspect of management could be described as being on the fiddle themselves, so it becomes hard to apply performance management across the board without cupboards being opened to find skeletons. For example, in a business unit known to me there’s a manager who comes in for roughly four hours per day (and who, needless to say, has utilised Covid as a means of significantly reducing even from that). He has done various things to staff including touching someone inappropriately at a team event, threatening to “finish off” someone in a meeting in front of 15 people, and making continual unwanted references to the IRA to an Irish member of staff. Needless to say, the next level down love this as it allows total freedom to get away with virtually anything, save an open & shut safety-related screwup.

Interestingly the friend of mine I mentioned above has cited two examples in the NHS he has dealt with personally: stealing and fighting at work. Both of these would be an open and shut case for dismissal and quite possibly police involvement in most industries, including the railway. In both cases the staff members concerned were moved to other departments (so “sacked sideways”). This is due to a culture of simply not sacking people because it’s too much paperwork for the managers involved, so it’s easier to make the people concerned someone else’s problem.

On the railway I’m aware of a driver who was fired for inappropriate touching of a member of staff on a station platform (there was apparently more to it, with the two concerned being in an off and on relationship, but ultimately she reported him and of course it was on CCTV).

I’ve also known of several drivers fired or redeployed for cumulative safety incidents: one who got into an fight with a platform staff member at Blackfriars after intervening in an argument between platform staff and passengers; one who failed a drug and alcohol test; one caught on his phone (again a little more to that one than met the eye); one who made an inappropriate suggestive comment to a cleaner.

In each case the sackings were justified, the disciplinary process took its course and there was no question of a union dispute. As you say a lot of this is structural and down to poor recruitment decisions rather than because of the unions per se.

 

[bramling]

Wow.

How are they still in a job? Or more to the point, not in a cell?

That is an utterly rotten culture that must be weeded out urgently.

The answer to your question is, unfortunately, quite simple - because plenty of people can be easily bought off by a few extra days off work or some overtime thrown in their direction, and when the next level up is out of their depth and they don’t want any nasties on their watch, and who have similar characteristics themself.

Rather topically, it’s how I imagine things have got like they are in the Met Police, it’s one of the consequences when there’s a leader who has skeletons in their cupboard.

 

[43066]

it’s one of the consequences when there’s a leader who has skeletons in their cupboard.

Not for much longer in the Met’s case .

You could hear everything. The Pandos between BPN and PRE are quiet as they don't go that fast and, everything could be heard and I was in the seats just before the bulkhead.

Not ideal to overhear that, clearly. It’s a difficult one because she would no doubt have considered she was out of customer view and may well have been on a “break”. Certainly where I am the hosts are not rostered breaks away from the train, so essentially have nowhere else to go but the galley.

There’s nothing more teeth-itchingly annoying than loud mobile phone conversations or music played without headphones.

 

[Mag_seven]

As we are now way off topic and with Avanti Standard Premium now up and running its time to bring this thread to a close.

For discussion of Avanti First Class please see this thread:

Avanti First class experience.

I have to say my entire Avanti first class experience compared to Virgin is extremely poor. They jacked up the price massively even with a railcard, you can't use the Euston lounge on arrival only on departure, even then 1 hours prior departure, I had to argue robustly about first class value...

www.railforums.co.uk

If anyone wants to start a thread about the Avanti Standard Premium experience then they are welcome to start a new thread in the Trip Planning and Reports Section.

As ever for discussion of anything else a new thread may be started - the forum has lots of spare capacity so please use it.

thanks all