Avanti West Coast: Standard Premium

[Grumpy Git]

Hahahah I'd like to see that

It could have a logo saying something like "off duty, don't bother asking".

 

[Deafdoggie]

Remember that some staff do pass on trains, meaning they're in uniform but are not the core staff on the train. They will assist where required but the main reason they're on that train is to get to another one.

Or they could be assisting with at seat order, which requires an extra person in the shop now.

They must passenger a lot of staff. They are on every train!

 

[Meyrick]

They must passenger a lot of staff. They are on every train!

Reduced timetable, same amount of staff. So makes sense

 

[Falcon1200]

It could have a logo saying something like "off duty, don't bother asking".

Although when travelling pass, while not working the train they are on duty !

 

[Grumpy Git]

Although when travelling pass, while not working the train they are on duty !

Ok so how about "don't bother asking"?

 

[Djgr]

Although when travelling pass, while not working the train they are on duty !

Perhaps they could spend their time doing online cooking classes to help address catering service failures.

 

[Mag_seven]

I've messaged Avanti on Facebook and they state there are no restrictions preventing Priv ticket holders from paying the appropriate fee to upgrade to Standard Premium.

That's not what the latest RSTL restrictions state:

Standard Premium accommodation

Standard Premium accommodation is currently only available as an onboard upgrade for members of the public and at the moment is not available to holders of any Staff Travel Facilities. First Class accommodation remains available to holders of First Class staff travel facilities.

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/files/Publications/services/rst/RST_Restrictions_2021_Summer_v8.pdf

 

[voyagerdude220]

That's not what the latest RSTL restrictions state:

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/files/Publications/services/rst/RST_Restrictions_2021_Summer_v8.pdf

Strange, as they supposedly checked with one of their Fare Managers.

 

[Bald Rick]

You’ll be hard pushed to find an Avanti train manager who tells a first class pass holder to leave a near empty SP coach.

 

[The Prisoner]

Travelling from Chester to London on Monday to pick up a car and had a quick look at the Avanti website to see what's on offer.

Let's gloss over that Avanti have given up on the North Wales/Chester direct services for the foreseeable. I can see that Standard Premium, if they get the loadings, will kill off the first class offering off peak and make them a load more £ in the process:

From Chester Standard off peak single is £66.10. First off peak single is £147.70. Standard Premium can't be booked from Chester.

Not a single advance fare to be had (any class) from Chester, so let's take a look at booking from Crewe and splitting the ticket to see if there is anything worthwhile:

£60.20 off peak standard single, or £129.80 for an off peak first single Crewe to Euston. Advance standard fares coming in at £51.80 on a couple of services (and they are via Birmingham so take longer - hardly a saving for sacrificing flexibility and adding time to the journey) whilst the cheapest first class advance ticket is £123.10 (so save around 5%, but lose flexibility - again just not worth it). And I still have to pay £13.50 for the Chester to Crewe single.

Premium Standard can be pre booked at between £76 and £85, but that is for an advance ticket available for a specified train and only from Crewe, so the true cost of the journey is £89-98 when I add the Crewe-Chester leg in.

I would regularly have paid less than that for a first advance from Chester in Virgin days.

The sinister part is that £89-98 (split ticket from Chester) or £76-85 (from Crewe) for Standard Premium is giving me much less of an offering than first class for more than I would expect to pay for that journey in first class off peak.

If loadings are half decent in SP and first class capacity is so significantly reduced (covid timetable + coaches given to Standard Prem) then I can see first class only being made available in the peak when the expenses brigade are on board and the fare is not questioned. During the day nobody will be able to afford first due to the lack of advance leisure fares, people will "settle" for SP, which is more expensive than first advances were with Virgin and get less for it.

Great for Avanti. Lousy for the customer.

 

[Vespa]

Aye then other TOCs will looking to poach customers from Avanti.

I think Avanti is making a commercial mistake and messing up a tried and tested formula, customers want continuity and consistency, by making you pay more for less they will lose customers and revenue.....

I'm now looking at cheaper First Class alternatives by comparing cost v service levels and whether it's worth the extra or not.

I'm considering LNWR First Class even if they dont offer food or lounges, they do seem offer a better pricing structure even if the journey is going to take longer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm considering LNWR First Class even if they dont offer food or lounges, they do seem offer a better pricing structure even if the journey is going to take longer.

Have you ever actually used LNR First Class?

Let's see, in no particular order...
1. No food
2. No lounge
3. Inferior seats to Standard (unless a /2)
4. Less legroom than Standard other than in some middle sections
5. Curtains

You'd pay extra for curtains?

I think this is hyperbole. SP is just classic Euro First Class - an uplift of approximately 50% (on the Off Peaks) for a bigger seat. It is precisely the product I want, and if I had my way it would be the standard, with food served at an extra charge. (I could be swayed to free tea, coffee and water but not more than that).

The fare increases on cheapo Advances are a side issue; they'd have done that whether SP was introduced or not.

In essence, what SP is is Weekend First all week, unless you think a little snack box worth a couple of quid is that important.

I do think LNR would have an opportunity to make money out of decent 1st, but decent it is not.

FWIW what I do wonder is which of the two "middle class" propositions would be more popular - the one they chose (better seat, no service) or the other one (Standard seat, 1st service). I think a few on here might like the latter but I don't think it would do best overall.

 

[Vespa]

Have you ever actually used LNR First Class?

Let's see, in no particular order...
1. No food
2. No lounge
3. Inferior seats to Standard (unless a /2)
4. Less legroom than Standard other than in some middle sections
5. Curtains

You'd pay extra for curtains?

I think this is hyperbole. SP is just classic Euro First Class - an uplift of approximately 50% (on the Off Peaks) for a bigger seat. It is precisely the product I want, and if I had my way it would be the standard, with food served at an extra charge. (I could be swayed to free tea, coffee and water but not more than that).

The fare increases on cheapo Advances are a side issue; they'd have done that whether SP was introduced or not.

In essence, what SP is is Weekend First all week, unless you think a little snack box worth a couple of quid is that important.

I do think LNR would have an opportunity to make money out of decent 1st, but decent it is not.

FWIW what I do wonder is which of the two "middle class" propositions would be more popular - the one they chose (better seat, no service) or the other one (Standard seat, 1st service). I think a few on here might like the latter but I don't think it would do best overall.

As ever it's down to price and your mileage may vary.

I have seen £31 return advance first including railcard with LNWR, that's pretty impressive.

Avanti risk pricing themselves out.

 

[AlterEgo]

As ever it's down to price and your mileage may vary.

Avanti risk pricing themselves out.

If it’s really down to price I don’t see why most people wouldn’t just travel Standard. LNWR First class is a downgrade from standard and is more expensive!

 

[superalbs]

Have you ever actually used LNR First Class?

Let's see, in no particular order...
1. No food
2. No lounge
3. Inferior seats to Standard (unless a /2)
4. Less legroom than Standard other than in some middle sections
5. Curtains

You'd pay extra for curtains?

I think this is hyperbole. SP is just classic Euro First Class - an uplift of approximately 50% (on the Off Peaks) for a bigger seat. It is precisely the product I want, and if I had my way it would be the standard, with food served at an extra charge. (I could be swayed to free tea, coffee and water but not more than that).

The fare increases on cheapo Advances are a side issue; they'd have done that whether SP was introduced or not.

In essence, what SP is is Weekend First all week, unless you think a little snack box worth a couple of quid is that important.

I do think LNR would have an opportunity to make money out of decent 1st, but decent it is not.

FWIW what I do wonder is which of the two "middle class" propositions would be more popular - the one they chose (better seat, no service) or the other one (Standard seat, 1st service). I think a few on here might like the latter but I don't think it would do best overall.

I agree, the one they have chosen is better. Trenitalia has the other option, and I just can't understand why anyone would pay more for a different colour seat, and a biscuit + 330ml soft drink.

Reckon people in the UK would see it's the exact same seat, and then just not bother.

As ever it's down to price and your mileage may vary.

I have seen £31 advance first including railcard with LNWR, that's pretty impressive.

Avanti risk pricing themselves out.

£31 with railcard seems pretty expensive really. Are we talking Birmingham or Liverpool?

I have paid £28.70 for First Class from Liverpool on Virgin Trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As ever it's down to price and your mileage may vary.

No, it's down to the value proposition. LNR First is cheap, but as it's inferior to Standard I wouldn't "upgrade" if it cost an extra £0.01, and indeed if I had a First Class ticket anyway I'd sit in Standard unless there were only the "no legroom" centre section seats available (I have a near 100% record of not having to sit in one of those seats).

Paying to downgrade has zero value.

If LNR had fitted TPE style 1st to all the 350s it would indeed have been about price.

I have seen £31 return advance first including railcard with LNWR, that's pretty impressive.

Not when the product basically has zero value.

Avanti risk pricing themselves out.

Quite the opposite - SP is making a better seat accessible to more people on weekends including walk-up passengers at the same price as Weekend First was. All they're doing is getting rid of the supercheapo Advances which are small in number anyway.

I have paid £28.70 for First Class from Liverpool on Virgin Trains.

That's a "price dumped" low value Advance. If the railway sells any of those it isn't yield managing effectively.

 

[Vespa]

No, it's down to the value proposition. LNR First is cheap, but as it's inferior to Standard I wouldn't "upgrade" if it cost an extra £0.01, and indeed if I had a First Class ticket anyway I'd sit in Standard unless there were only the "no legroom" centre section seats available (I have a near 100% record of not having to sit in one of those seats).

Paying to downgrade has zero value.

If LNR had fitted TPE style 1st to all the 350s it would indeed have been about price.



Not when the product basically has zero value.



Quite the opposite - SP is making a better seat accessible to more people on weekends including walk-up passengers at the same price as Weekend First was. All they're doing is getting rid of the supercheapo Advances which are small in number anyway.



That's a "price dumped" low value Advance. If the railway sells any of those it isn't yield managing effectively.

I'm going have to disagree with you on value, I do not think SP is a better value for what you are paying.

I have looked inside the LNWR 1st class carriage, they are big enough and not overcrowded, cheap enough at least I can bring my own food knowing I'm actually getting what I actually paid for and not sit in stupidly expensive Avanti seat paying for the privilege of having mock 1st Class.

I still think Avanti have made a poor decision in massively jacking up the price of 1st Class and applying old 1st class price to an inferior product offering, it feels like blatant profiteering.

The old railway companies got rid of 3 classes in the past for a reason !

 

[Butts]

Have you ever actually used LNR First Class?

Let's see, in no particular order...
1. No food
2. No lounge
3. Inferior seats to Standard (unless a /2)
4. Less legroom than Standard other than in some middle sections
5. Curtains

You'd pay extra for curtains?

I think this is hyperbole. SP is just classic Euro First Class - an uplift of approximately 50% (on the Off Peaks) for a bigger seat. It is precisely the product I want, and if I had my way it would be the standard, with food served at an extra charge. (I could be swayed to free tea, coffee and water but not more than that).

The fare increases on cheapo Advances are a side issue; they'd have done that whether SP was introduced or not.

In essence, what SP is is Weekend First all week, unless you think a little snack box worth a couple of quid is that important.

I do think LNR would have an opportunity to make money out of decent 1st, but decent it is not.

FWIW what I do wonder is which of the two "middle class" propositions would be more popular - the one they chose (better seat, no service) or the other one (Standard seat, 1st service). I think a few on here might like the latter but I don't think it would do best overall.

So are you saying you would turn down anything else offered to you free as part of the package.

I am really looking forward to my 1st Class Journey on Avanti next month as it should be really exclusive with quieter Lounges and virtually on demand service - or am I deluded ?

 

[superalbs]

I'm going have to disagree with you on value, I do not think SP is a better value for what you are paying.

I have looked inside the LNWR 1st class carriage, they are big enough and not overcrowded, cheap enough at least I can bring my own food knowing I'm actually getting what I actually paid for and not sit in stupidly expensive Avanti seat paying for the privilege of having mock 1st Class.

I still think Avanti have made a poor decision in massively jacking up the price of 1st Class and applying old 1st class price to an inferior product offering, it feels like blatant profiteering.

The old railway companies got rid of 3 classes in the past for a reason !

Yet companies like Trenitalia and Regiojet make do with FOUR classes on some trains (arguably more in the case of the latter), and it seems to work well for them.

 

[Furrball]

Very busy 9 car from Euston to Glasgow today

Reservations not loaded

Standard Premium coach 80% occupied on leaving London

Anounced as declassified at Preston but very few people came through

TM from Preston walked through when train quietened down but no ticket checks done

 

[Vespa]

Yet companies like Trenitalia and Regiojet make do with FOUR classes on some trains (arguably more in the case of the latter), and it seems to work well for them.

Probably cultural for Europe.
In the UK it doesn't seem to work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably cultural for Europe.
In the UK it doesn't seem to work.

Largely because of the FirstGroup talent to take a good idea and turn it into a right mess.

So are you saying you would turn down anything else offered to you free as part of the package.

I prefer not to pay for a package including things I mostly don't want. I prefer the low cost airline approach of debundling so I pay for what I want, which most of the time is just the more comfortable seat and maybe a coffee. I prefer to purchase my own food, for example from the excellent range provided at M&S Food, and take it on.

 

[py_megapixel]

Probably cultural for Europe.
In the UK it doesn't seem to work.

The fact that it doesn't work when FirstGroup does it in a half-***ed way, launches it in the midst of a global pandemic and doesn't advertise it properly doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the concept!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The fact that it doesn't work when FirstGroup does it in a half-***ed way, launches it in the midst of a global pandemic and doesn't advertise it properly doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the concept!

Exactly. Avanti West Coast is lackadaisical and half-whatevered, as you say, through and through. If everything else they did was also lackadaisical and half-whatevered, that is just what you expect from an altogether rubbish TOC that has not the first clue about effective marketing.

 

[superalbs]

Probably cultural for Europe.
In the UK it doesn't seem to work.

Yet these are new concepts introduced relatively recently. Even this ÖBB Railjet that I am on right now has three classes, as does the competition of Westbahn.

All relatively new.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Very busy 9 car from Euston to Glasgow today

Reservations not loaded

Standard Premium coach 80% occupied on leaving London

Anounced as declassified at Preston but very few people came through

TM from Preston walked through when train quietened down but no ticket checks done

I don't understand why Avanti tend to put 9 car sets when clearly 11 cars are needed, particularly on a Friday.

 

[Merseysider]

Mad idea, what if the introduction of Standard Premium was (at least in part) due to labour shortages for catering staff following brexit and covid?

Probably/almost certainly miles off, but it crossed my mind.

I was in Coach H on the 1650 BHM - EUS this evening which was about 80% full, probably more, mostly with what looked like leisure travellers.

However, in my experience, this train was always busy in 1st class pre-covid, albeit with suit, tie ‘n laptop/annoyingly-loud-phone-call-look-at-me-i’m-important folk.

So perhaps Avanti realised their 3/4/however many first class carriages would mostly be carting fresh air around during the peaks, and this is purely their response to the WFH shift following covid... who knows.

Exactly. Avanti West Coast is lackadaisical and half-whatevered, as you say, through and through.

This. They have no brand identity. What’s that, a triangle? How riveting.

 

[Furrball]

It seemed initially that when booking online the Standard Premium pricing was current Standard price + upgrade

That no longer looks to be the case

Euston - Glasgow 20th October
Standard £65.70
Standard Premium £105.30
Difference £39.60




Glasgow - Euston 24th November
Standard £43.20
Standard Premium £82.80
Difference £39.60



Euston - Manchester 20th October
Standard £58.80
Standard Premium £89.80
Difference £33.00



Manchester - Euston 24th November
Standard £37.80
Standard Premium £70.80
Difference £33.00




London-Birmingham looks like is is £19.80
London - Liverpool £33.00

 

[LarryRailer]

More data points:
Travelled SP today (a Saturday) for the first time on pre-booked advance tickets (previously have just done the onboard upgrades).

I was assigned a seat in coach H (as expected) on BHM-WGN, but a seat in coach J (to my great surprise) for the WGN-BHM.

Once on board, both Coach Hs had the “Standard Premium” logo antimacassars, but Coach J seats had NO antimacassars (the normal “First Class” logo ones had all been removed).

It made coach J look a bit “cheap” (like it did during the first few weeks after AWC took over the franchise)…and could have led to some interesting discussions with staff had any standard ticket holders decided to sit in coach J. Sure, the doors and outsides of carriages still say First Class (too hard/expensive to vary?), but the counter-argument would be that Coach H doors/outsides also still say First Class, which is demonstrably never true these days.

AWC need to get their act together. Come back VT, all is forgiven

 

[Merseysider]

Come back VT, all is forgiven

No. Never. Not after those talking bloody toilets.