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Avanti West Coast: Standard Premium

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Bletchleyite

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This would be terrible, this would reduce the amount of unreserved seats, I assume.

It will (if it works) increase occupancy in 1st, as that's the point of it - to increase income from the First Class provision. Doesn't surprise me that current 1st users don't like it, but you pay for one seat, not half a coach to yourself.
 
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AMR

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It will (if it works) increase occupancy in 1st, as that's the point of it - to increase income from the First Class provision. Doesn't surprise me that current 1st users don't like it, but you pay for one seat, not half a coach to yourself.
This is basically what all London commuters feared virgin would do. Well from Milton and Manchester.
 

Journeyman

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It will (if it works) increase occupancy in 1st, as that's the point of it - to increase income from the First Class provision. Doesn't surprise me that current 1st users don't like it, but you pay for one seat, not half a coach to yourself.
Unfortunately, first class passengers have rather got used to that. One of the best things about first is not having to sit next to or opposite anyone. Given a choice between a standard airline seat in a fairly quiet carriage, or a first class seat at a table of four with the other three occupied by strangers, I'd choose the former every time. This is a problem exacerbated by the lack of individual seats in first on Pendolinos. It's not an issue on Azumas, where there's loads of single seats and not enough tables for two.
 

Bletchleyite

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Unfortunately, first class passengers have rather got used to that. One of the best things about first is not having to sit next to or opposite anyone. Given a choice between a standard airline seat in a fairly quiet carriage, or a first class seat at a table of four with the other three occupied by strangers, I'd choose the former every time. This is a problem exacerbated by the lack of individual seats in first on Pendolinos. It's not an issue on Azumas, where there's loads of single seats and not enough tables for two.

I would like to see more single 1st seats on Pendolinos. Perhaps it could be fed back to Avanti that they should change the single side to half tables, half airline at refurb? Would just involve turning them round and adding a few mini-tables.

The trouble with 1st is that most people travel alone, but moving to 1+1 probably wouldn't be economic. I'm not sure what the fix to that is, other than possibly having a more innovative layout like diagonal tables as found on the Caledonian lounge car?

I've created a speculative thread to delve into the options for "something other than all-tables 2+1 as is traditional": https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ere-a-better-layout-or-another-option.213233/
 
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Scotrail314209

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I would like to see more single 1st seats on Pendolinos. Perhaps it could be fed back to Avanti that they should change the single side to half tables, half airline at refurb? Would just involve turning them round and adding a few mini-tables.

The trouble with 1st is that most people travel alone, but moving to 1+1 probably wouldn't be economic. I'm not sure what the fix to that is, other than possibly having a more innovative layout like diagonal tables as found on the Caledonian lounge car?

I've created a speculative thread to delve into the options for "something other than all-tables 2+1 as is traditional": https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ere-a-better-layout-or-another-option.213233/

To me the lounge car with the diagonal seating doesn't seem very lounge like to me. The new Club Car doesn't look very relaxing compared to the old one.
 

AMR

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I would like to see more single 1st seats on Pendolinos. Perhaps it could be fed back to Avanti that they should change the single side to half tables, half airline at refurb? Would just involve turning them round and adding a few mini-tables.

The trouble with 1st is that most people travel alone, but moving to 1+1 probably wouldn't be economic. I'm not sure what the fix to that is, other than possibly having a more innovative layout like diagonal tables as found on the Caledonian lounge car?

I've created a speculative thread to delve into the options for "something other than all-tables 2+1 as is traditional": https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ere-a-better-layout-or-another-option.213233/
On the Busiest trains 1st is always only half full so they put them all in 1 carriage and let people working with laptops in sometimes. It happened twice to someone I know.
 
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Journeyman

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I would like to see more single 1st seats on Pendolinos. Perhaps it could be fed back to Avanti that they should change the single side to half tables, half airline at refurb? Would just involve turning them round and adding a few mini-tables.

The trouble with 1st is that most people travel alone, but moving to 1+1 probably wouldn't be economic. I'm not sure what the fix to that is, other than possibly having a more innovative layout like diagonal tables as found on the Caledonian lounge car?

I've created a speculative thread to delve into the options for "something other than all-tables 2+1 as is traditional": https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ere-a-better-layout-or-another-option.213233/
2+1 is fine, it's just getting the combination of airline and table seating right, which Pendolinos and Azumas don't. LNER HSTs and Mark 4s were much better in that regard.
 

YorksLad12

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2+1 is fine, it's just getting the combination of airline and table seating right, which Pendolinos and Azumas don't. LNER HSTs and Mark 4s were much better in that regard.

I'd say the Mk4s were spot on, as they had that swapover point halfway down. It was 2+1, then 1+1 (with a seat on each side of the table), then 1+2 for the rest. You could book a single seat on the 'shaded' side of the train whichever way you travelled. My favourites were always the 1+1 seats as you could have your bag next to you on the floor but still out of everyone's way.
 

vlad

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Booze aside, I've long wondered why they don't invest in some teapots and cafetieres, which would mean you get more tea/coffee and it's easier to serve it so probably cheaper in staff-utilisation terms (and dead classy, too).

I've been given a pot of tea (one of those small metal things that holds 2 or 3 cups) on Virgin before.
 

ScotTrains

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I'd say the Mk4s were spot on, as they had that swapover point halfway down. It was 2+1, then 1+1 (with a seat on each side of the table), then 1+2 for the rest. You could book a single seat on the 'shaded' side of the train whichever way you travelled. My favourites were always the 1+1 seats as you could have your bag next to you on the floor but still out of everyone's way.
My favourite was also the tables for two in the 1-1 middle of the mk4. They always seemed to get occupied first!

I think the pendolinos have the seating mix about right. For the leisure market, most 1st class passengers travel in pairs especially on Fridays and weekends. We've often had trouble trying to get a table for two even on an extendalino.

The Azuma is rubbish for couples due to the lack of tables for two. It's probably the worst designed intercity 1st class carriage to date. One of the reasons my wife and I travel 1st (apart from the meal) is to sit together in comfy seats without anyone else at our table. The Azuma layout really puts us off travelling with LNER. I do hope they fix it.

As others have said, I've always found the Glasgow based WCML catering crew to be the friendliest and most generous 1st class hosts on the network. It certainly doesn't go unnoticed!
I've been given a pot of tea (one of those small metal things that holds 2 or 3 cups) on Virgin before.
Yes, I was given one of those a few years ago. I think they may only hand them out on quieter services.
I wonder if Avanti will improve the 1st class offering to help differentiate it from this new 'standard premium' offering. I've found the meals have been getting smaller and smaller recently especially with the pre-covid downgrading of Friday dinner service.
 

Scotrail314209

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My favourite was also the tables for two in the 1-1 middle of the mk4. They always seemed to get occupied first!

I think the pendolinos have the seating mix about right. For the leisure market, most 1st class passengers travel in pairs especially on Fridays and weekends. We've often had trouble trying to get a table for two even on an extendalino.

The Azuma is rubbish for couples due to the lack of tables for two. It's probably the worst designed intercity 1st class carriage to date. One of the reasons my wife and I travel 1st (apart from the meal) is to sit together in comfy seats without anyone else at our table. The Azuma layout really puts us off travelling with LNER. I do hope they fix it.

As others have said, I've always found the Glasgow based WCML catering crew to be the friendliest and most generous 1st class hosts on the network. It certainly doesn't go unnoticed.

I totally agree on the Azuma. I did the 12:00 from Edinburgh - Newcastle in Coach K once. All the tables for four were occupied by pairs, with people they didn't know sitting at their table.

They really need to update the layout as it isn't ideal for pairs. The meals were lovely though.

Good to see some recognition for the Glasgow based crew, they are probably the best WCML crew they have.
 

yorkie

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It seems the webpage has disappeared.
It's back now.

They are also going to be offering Standard Premium Advance fares.

These will be set up as standard class but will give seats in the Standard Premium coach.

The route code for these Advance fares will be 00469 AVANTI STD PREMIUM
 

Mag_seven

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I can't see this initiative being popular with first class full fare passengers as it effectively removes a first class vehicle giving only one and a half "proper" 1st class vehicles in a 9 car for example.
 

Journeyman

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I can't see this initiative being popular with first class full fare passengers as it effectively removes a first class vehicle giving only one and a half "proper" 1st class vehicles in a 9 car for example.
Well, for a start, I expect a lot of those first class passengers will be happy to downgrade anyway. I think it'll be a popular product, and attract passengers from both first and standard. Right now my class of travel for long-distance journeys is usually dictated by what price of advance I can pick up. If this is pitched properly, it'll be at a sweet spot that makes it very attractive to a lot of people.
 

yorkie

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Well, for a start, I expect a lot of those first class passengers will be happy to downgrade anyway. I think it'll be a popular product, and attract passengers from both first and standard. Right now my class of travel for long-distance journeys is usually dictated by what price of advance I can pick up. If this is pitched properly, it'll be at a sweet spot that makes it very attractive to a lot of people.
Does it have individual seats? If not, I wouldn't be interested in paying the extra.

That's the main selling point for me on LNER; individual seat, having both a window view and immediate access to the aisle and plenty of space.

At the moment, I get effectively get that in Standard anyway but that can't last beyond this Spring.
 

cactustwirly

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I can't see this initiative being popular with first class full fare passengers as it effectively removes a first class vehicle giving only one and a half "proper" 1st class vehicles in a 9 car for example.

How many full fare passengers are there? Compared to advances or seatfrogs
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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I did contact both Avanti West Coast and Seatfrog, and Avanti West Coast told me that the full First Class offer will continue to be what is auctioned and won on Seatfrog, and not Standard Premium
 

bunnahabhain

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Well, for a start, I expect a lot of those first class passengers will be happy to downgrade anyway. I think it'll be a popular product, and attract passengers from both first and standard. Right now my class of travel for long-distance journeys is usually dictated by what price of advance I can pick up. If this is pitched properly, it'll be at a sweet spot that makes it very attractive to a lot of people.
People will only downgrade from 1st class if they feel that the fare they're paying has been devalued enough not to continue paying it. If the difference between standard premium and first class are the added awful coffee/tea and rubbish snacks, nobody is going to pay that, unless standard premium becomes wedged full of the type of people they're trying to get away from. Equally, it might benefit genuine first class passengers by removing your £5 a go first class loudmouths who are only there because the fare is cheap rather than because they belong in first class. I shall await the inevitable outrage.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's back now.

They are also going to be offering Standard Premium Advance fares.

These will be set up as standard class but will give seats in the Standard Premium coach.

The route code for these Advance fares will be 00469 AVANTI STD PREMIUM

Expenses-"fraud"-tastic :D

I may well partake on my own money, though, provided the price is reasonable. (Definition of "reasonable" being no more than 1.6 times the relevant Standard ticket for that train, which reflects both European norms and the additional space a 1st seat takes up).

Does it have individual seats? If not, I wouldn't be interested in paying the extra.

It's Coach G (11-car) or H (9-car), i.e. First Class style seating but without additional service. I think there is one *individual* seat against the service point, but plenty of tables for 2.
 

Scotrail314209

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Have they only trialled this on Euston - Wolverhampton services?

Wouldn't a trial be more effective on all the Pendolino routes once restrictions are lifted to get a broader idea of who'd use it?
 

Journeyman

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It's Coach G (11-car) or H (9-car), i.e. First Class style seating but without additional service. I think there is one *individual* seat against the service point, but plenty of tables for 2.
This is the problem with Pendolinos in general. If given a choice between sharing a first class table with three strangers, or a standard class airline seat, I'll choose the latter every time, even if it costs more than the former.
 

philosopher

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At the moment many companies ban their staff from booking first class tickets. I assume that on business travel booking systems this Standard Premium will still be considered as Standard class. Therefore Avanti may be able pick up quite a few business travellers using this service who were previously banned from using first class.
 

Journeyman

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At the moment many companies ban their staff from booking first class tickets. I assume that on business travel booking systems this Standard Premium will still be considered as Standard class. Therefore Avanti may be able pick up quite a few business travellers using this service who were previously banned from using first class.
That's the whole point of it.
 

Bletchleyite

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At the moment many companies ban their staff from booking first class tickets. I assume that on business travel booking systems this Standard Premium will still be considered as Standard class. Therefore Avanti may be able pick up quite a few business travellers using this service who were previously banned from using first class.

That was what I meant by expenses "fraud". FWIW many companies are working round this anyway by specifying the cheapest available ticket on the required train. That can sometimes be 1st but it usually isn't.

That's the whole point of it.

I'd not say the whole point, I'd say it also has a role in offering cheaper First Class style travel for the leisure market, which is where it will sit with me.
 

All Line Rover

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Will this be coaches G (11 cars) AND H (all Pendolinos), or G (11 cars) OR H (9 cars)? The Avanti Q&A implies the former.
 

Vespa

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People will only downgrade from 1st class if they feel that the fare they're paying has been devalued enough not to continue paying it. If the difference between standard premium and first class are the added awful coffee/tea and rubbish snacks, nobody is going to pay that, unless standard premium becomes wedged full of the type of people they're trying to get away from. Equally, it might benefit genuine first class passengers by removing your £5 a go first class loudmouths who are only there because the fare is cheap rather than because they belong in first class. I shall await the inevitable outrage.
Inevitable outrage is that it's no longer Upper v Lower class bias, you're paying for a service level, there's no such thing as middle or working class these days, that went out in the 1980s which swept such limitations away, I don't identify with a particular class but I am quite happy to pay for a higher level of service and amenities, there's a market for it.

How do you define "Genuine First Class" customers anyway ?
 

Journeyman

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Inevitable outrage is that it's no longer Upper v Lower class bias, you're paying for a service level, there's no such thing as middle or working class these days, that went out in the 1980s which swept such limitations away, I don't identify with a particular class but I am quite happy to pay for a higher level of service and amenities, there's a market for it.

How do you define "Genuine First Class" customers anyway ?
Yeah, First Class has been changing for a long time, and it's now just as full of leisure travelers as it is the traditional "executive". I don't think stereotypes on who uses First work any more. Eurostar have proven this concept works.
 

takno

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Does it have individual seats? If not, I wouldn't be interested in paying the extra.
It's first class seats but with no soft product, so presumably the individual seats would be available
 

Journeyman

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It's first class seats but with no soft product, so presumably the individual seats would be available
As stated upthread, there's only one individual seat in each coach concerned, so good luck fighting over it.
 

bunnahabhain

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How do you define "Genuine First Class" customers anyway ?
People who have paid more than a few quid. Unfortunately advance purchase tickets have created a race to the bottom and have utterly devalued the service to the point that people don't know how much it really costs anymore. Take a busy intercity route I work on where if somebody doesn't have a ticket and I charge them the cheapest single ticket I usually get asked "Why are you charging me £15 when it's £3 on the next train?".

The whole pricing structure for the railways is wrong, first class really would be better these days as a supplement to the standard class fare where the difference everybody pays is the same regardless of whether they're on a dirt cheap AP or something which reflects the true cost of the journey.
 
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