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WestCoast

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BA's Gatwick base is a complicated matter; average yield is much lower than at Heathrow, and the slots are much less expensive than those of Heathrow. If we're expecting a multi-year depression in aviation, then BA could easily centralise on Heathrow in part just to ensure they can make use of all the slots they currently own to avoid losing them. I don't think anyone is expecting the short haul services to holiday destinations to disappear: the expectation is very much they'll move to Heathrow, precisely for the sake of the slots.

I think if it's going to be really tough they are better off focusing on Heathrow - that way they can ensure they keep their competition out of their main hub. The slots which aren't getting used for services to the United States etc can be filled with more short-haul leisure routes.

I wonder what is a worse outcome, scaling down Gatwick and leaving business to rivals or having those rivals turn up at Heathrow. I'm not sure BA (or Aer Lingus) would be too keen on say Ryanair launching Heathrow - Dublin!!

If Gatwick loses the bulk of BA, Virgin and maybe Norwegian too (?) then it's going to be interesting to see who their main clients will be moving forward, not many airlines are planning expansion right now but I could see easyJet acquiring more slots at Gatwick as well as Wizzair and/or Ryanair being interested in building up more of a presence. I wonder if Gatwick will become more like Stansted or Luton being dominated by low-cost taffic in the long run.
 
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gsnedders

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British Airways Holidays is already (and always has been) a separate company, and it’s technically based at Astral Towers in Crawley, with Waterside being only its registered office. In fact, the structure of BA is to have almost every profit/cost centre set up as a separate business.
I very much meant "holiday" in the leisure sense, thinking of leisure-focused aviation side, rather than BA Holidays.

If Gatwick loses the bulk of BA, Virgin and maybe Norwegian too (?) then it's going to be interesting to see who their main clients will be moving forward, not many airlines are planning expansion right now but I could see easyJet acquiring more slots at Gatwick as well as Wizzair and/or Ryanair being interested in building up more of a presence. I wonder if Gatwick will become more like Stansted or Luton being dominated by low-cost taffic in the long run.

easyJet is already nearly half of Gatwick, so it's already a substantial LCC base. Many of the flag carriers that do fly there do so in addition to Heathrow (often partly looking to compete for the more local market).
 

FQTV

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I very much meant "holiday" in the leisure sense, thinking of leisure-focused aviation side, rather than BA Holidays.

That won’t happen as there’s absolutely no distinction that way. If you look at Olbia to Heathrow on Wednesday, it’s back to Row 11 in Club. Services to and from Nice in the last month have been running at £748 for seats in Economy. This is one of BA’s great strengths in recent years, plugging into high yield, shorthaul to à la mode destinations out of Heathrow and City.

It’s something that the likes of Jet2.com have pulled a blinder on, too. £800 returns from Leeds Bradford to Tenerife on fully-paid 757s.
 

Bletchleyite

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It’s something that the likes of Jet2.com have pulled a blinder on, too. £800 returns from Leeds Bradford to Tenerife on fully-paid 757s.

Given that Jet2 is very much a Yorkshire oriented airline, I can't quite get why that sort of pricing doesn't just fall victim to shouts of "HOW much?" :D
 

gsnedders

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That won’t happen as there’s absolutely no distinction that way. If you look at Olbia to Heathrow on Wednesday, it’s back to Row 11 in Club. Services to and from Nice in the last month have been running at £748 for seats in Economy. This is one of BA’s great strengths in recent years, plugging into high yield, shorthaul to à la mode destinations out of Heathrow and City.

It’s something that the likes of Jet2.com have pulled a blinder on, too. £800 returns from Leeds Bradford to Tenerife on fully-paid 757s.
Right, there's definitely no hard-and-fast distinction. But the Gatwick operations _have_ been lower yield, and while moving them to Heathrow further further attract higher yield customers (especially with an effectively depressed value of the slots) it doesn't necessarily mean they'll match up to many already ex-Heathrow destinations. Longer term IAG does need some response more directly competing with LCCs, which was my main point.
 

stantheman

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It would be interesting to know what is involved with a diversion and how the aircraft gets back to its usual base for the next day . We had some nightmarish sheet lightning in Edinburgh for about four to five hours last night and about seven to eight Ryanair and EasyJet flights ended up in Prestwick or Glasgow . They spent hours circling around in the Borders presumably while landing arrangements were put in place , baggage handlers , customs staff , onward transport . Wonder what happened to the flight deck and cabin staff ...taxis or overnight accommodation. Who flew the planes back to Edinburgh I wonder , issues of crews hours might arise . I can imagine these situations being scary even in the flight deck and for passengers . Any info appreciated .
 

Elwyn

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In my experience the circling in the borders is not about getting arrangements in place at Prestwick. It’s in the hope that the weather will clear at the scheduled destination and the flight can land there after all. However when fuel gets low or the crew are near going out of hours then the plane diverts. They prefer to divert to an airport where they fly from normally because support arrangements exist there, but safety is the over-riding concern and if things are critical the pilot can choose anywhere judged to be safe and within the aircrafts operating limits.



If the airport doesn’t have customs or handlers ready the plane would still land and just taxi up to a suitable parking area. The passengers would remain on board until they could be disembarked. You wouldn’t keep the plane airborne just to await the arrival of officials on the ground.



The pilots are able to contact their operational base almost at any time, both by radio and by mobile phone. So they’ll discuss with them what the arrangements are for disembarking and transporting the passengers, and also looking after the aircraft. Usually buses are chartered to take the passengers and their luggage to the destination airport. The crew can go on those buses or they might be put in a hotel overnight with a view to flying the plane back to base the next day. Most airlines keep pilots and crew on standby, so that if someone goes sick or a plane is badly delayed they can call them out at short notice. They get put in a taxi and sent to the airport. So that could be another solution.



A colleague who flew with a holiday airline said that his company issued pilots with company credit cards so that if they had to divert and pay for landing fees or fuel at an airport where they didn’t have a standing credit arrangement they could just pay by credit card. Likewise if they needed a hotel or some other service.
 

stantheman

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In my experience the circling in the borders is not about getting arrangements in place at Prestwick. It’s in the hope that the weather will clear at the scheduled destination and the flight can land there after all. However when fuel gets low or the crew are near going out of hours then the plane diverts. They prefer to divert to an airport where they fly from normally because support arrangements exist there, but safety is the over-riding concern and if things are critical the pilot can choose anywhere judged to be safe and within the aircrafts operating limits.



If the airport doesn’t have customs or handlers ready the plane would still land and just taxi up to a suitable parking area. The passengers would remain on board until they could be disembarked. You wouldn’t keep the plane airborne just to await the arrival of officials on the ground.



The pilots are able to contact their operational base almost at any time, both by radio and by mobile phone. So they’ll discuss with them what the arrangements are for disembarking and transporting the passengers, and also looking after the aircraft. Usually buses are chartered to take the passengers and their luggage to the destination airport. The crew can go on those buses or they might be put in a hotel overnight with a view to flying the plane back to base the next day. Most airlines keep pilots and crew on standby, so that if someone goes sick or a plane is badly delayed they can call them out at short notice. They get put in a taxi and sent to the airport. So that could be another solution.



A colleague who flew with a holiday airline said that his company issued pilots with company credit cards so that if they had to divert and pay for landing fees or fuel at an airport where they didn’t have a standing credit arrangement they could just pay by credit card. Likewise if they needed a hotel or some other service.
Very informative thanks . I guess the planes would hold in the air above the bad weather . I understand a flight must have fuel to return to its start point , is that always the case ?
 

Elwyn

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No it has to have enough fuel to make something like 3 attempted landings at primary destination airport A, and then fuel to fly to diversion airport B. It doesn’t need to return to the place it departed from (and often wouldn’t have the fuel to do that anyway). So a pilot flying to say Aberdeen will probably have nominated Inverness or Edinburgh as his/her diversion airport when filing their flight plan. The fuel calculations are then based on having sufficient to divert there.

Sometimes pilots have to just do whatever seems safe. I recall some years back a late night flight to Inverness (BA perhaps?). As the pilot approached Inverness it had to close because of snow. Possible diversion airports such as Aberdeen and Edinburgh weren’t available and so he landed at RAF Kinloss or Lossiemouth. I forget which. The RAF there didn’t have any steps to reach up to the aircraft and after the engines were shut down passengers had to shiver on board for hours till steps could be brought from Inverness. But they and the plane were safe. That's the main point.
 

FQTV

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Right, there's definitely no hard-and-fast distinction. But the Gatwick operations _have_ been lower yield, and while moving them to Heathrow further further attract higher yield customers (especially with an effectively depressed value of the slots) it doesn't necessarily mean they'll match up to many already ex-Heathrow destinations. Longer term IAG does need some response more directly competing with LCCs, which was my main point.

The thing is that there’s no distinction at all, and IAG already has Vueling and LEVEL. Gatwick isn’t of and in itself low yield; rather it has a particular niche.

British Airways’ strategy is generally to put O&D (origin and destination, otherwise known as point to point) routes there.

However, it also concentrates its Caribbean routes there. Why? Because there’s a very strong flow from Italy to the Caribbean, that is pointless to clutter up Heathrow with. So Gatwick gets a lot of Italian routes.

Meanwhile, for whatever reason, almost everything to and from Jersey is point to point, so it also goes into Gatwick.

It’s a complex commercial decision, but whatever folks might like to say about the other no-frills carriers (or indeed Virgin Atlantic, if you want to understand how aviation economics works), they can only dream of the yield that BA can extract from Rome > Gatwick as part of a Club World or First ticket to Barbados or St Lucia.
 

YorkshireBear

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Interesting one that I noticed today on flight radar.

Jet2 flights from Edinburgh to Funchal (Madeira) stop off in Manchester to pick up more passengers and the same on return. So passengers from Edinburgh get double for their money in terms of take offs and landings.

Not heard of this happening much in recent times with airlines such as jet2, I know it happens more extensively elsewhere in the world and on Scottish islands.
 

Butts

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Flybe used to do this from Southampton to Leeds or Newcastle I think? Combining multiple short legs into one for operational efficiency.

My Daughter was once on a Flybe Flight that took off from Edinburgh, landed in Glasgow to pick more up then continued to Birmingham.
 

Tazi Hupefi

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Can't see it reported elsewhere, but easyJet look like they've closed their crew bases at Southend and Stansted.

All flights to/from Southend will be pulled, not sure about what it means for Stansted.
 

CC 72100

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Flybe used to do this from Southampton to Leeds or Newcastle I think? Combining multiple short legs into one for operational efficiency.

Whilst not domestic, I flew back from Paris on a Flybe Q400 in a storm on Christmas Eve (about 2 hours late departure - took off around 2130 local time I think in the end) on a flight from Paris - Cardiff - Glasgow. I left the flight at Cardiff, and if I remember correctly everybody else for Glasgow also had to do so and go through passport control there as Glasgow was now going to be closed when they reached Scotland (memory could be hazy on the last bit... in all honesty once we'd landed in Cardiff and I was now sure to be home for Christmas that was pretty much all I cared about!)
 

Elwyn

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Whilst not domestic, I flew back from Paris on a Flybe Q400 in a storm on Christmas Eve (about 2 hours late departure - took off around 2130 local time I think in the end) on a flight from Paris - Cardiff - Glasgow. I left the flight at Cardiff, and if I remember correctly everybody else for Glasgow also had to do so and go through passport control there as Glasgow was now going to be closed when they reached Scotland (memory could be hazy on the last bit... in all honesty once we'd landed in Cardiff and I was now sure to be home for Christmas that was pretty much all I cared about!)

These flights are called split loading flights. They are common enough. If a flight is going Paris – Cardiff – Glasgow and no domestic passengers are joining at Cardiff then the Glasgow ones can remain on board and clear immigration and customs at Glasgow. However if the airline wants to carry domestic passengers from Cardiff to Glasgow then everyone has to clear at Cardiff and it then becomes a domestic flight to Glasgow. You can’t mix domestic and uncleared international passengers on the same flight.

So the airline has to decide (from a commercial perspective) what they want. Are there going to be domestic passengers, if so everyone clears at first airport of arrival.
 

darloscott

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Can't see it reported elsewhere, but easyJet look like they've closed their crew bases at Southend and Stansted.

All flights to/from Southend will be pulled, not sure about what it means for Stansted.
Stansted, Southend and Newcastle are the three bases being closed. Newcastle will eventually lose all international routes leaving them with just Bristol & Belfast remaining.
 

CC 72100

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These flights are called split loading flights. They are common enough. If a flight is going Paris – Cardiff – Glasgow and no domestic passengers are joining at Cardiff then the Glasgow ones can remain on board and clear immigration and customs at Glasgow. However if the airline wants to carry domestic passengers from Cardiff to Glasgow then everyone has to clear at Cardiff and it then becomes a domestic flight to Glasgow. You can’t mix domestic and uncleared international passengers on the same flight.

So the airline has to decide (from a commercial perspective) what they want. Are there going to be domestic passengers, if so everyone clears at first airport of arrival.

Thanks for that - makes perfect sense when you think about it!

The delay and the concern that immigration would be closed at Glasgow could well be a bit of a misnomer then.
 

Butts

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Flybes replacement on a lot of Anglo Scottish Niche Routes Loganair are turning out to be a lot more expensive from my observations.

Inverness to Birmingham in October about £67 per person one way - Flybe last year under £50

Edinburgh to Southampton in October about £156 per person return - Flybe last year under a £100

These are more akin to Eastern Airways Prices.

A bit galling when I am Flying Easyjet BHX-EDI for £20 this Saturday.

You do get a bag and refreshments on Loganair .

Is this the future for Anglo-Scottish niche routes ?
 

Bald Rick

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Flybes replacement on a lot of Anglo Scottish Niche Routes Loganair are turning out to be a lot more expensive from my observations.

Inverness to Birmingham in October about £67 per person one way - Flybe last year under £50

Edinburgh to Southampton in October about £156 per person return - Flybe last year under a £100

These are more akin to Eastern Airways Prices.

A bit galling when I am Flying Easyjet BHX-EDI for £20 this Saturday.

You do get a bag and refreshments on Loganair .

Is this the future for Anglo-Scottish niche routes ?

Given that Flybe went bust, one assumes their revenue didn’t cover their costs. Therefore put the price up...
 

Butts

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Given that Flybe went bust, one assumes their revenue didn’t cover their costs. Therefore put the price up...


Yes, to be fair the Aircraft are smaller one route runs on a Cessna ;)

Will have to look out for special offers or sales !!
 

Wolfie

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Flybes replacement on a lot of Anglo Scottish Niche Routes Loganair are turning out to be a lot more expensive from my observations.

Inverness to Birmingham in October about £67 per person one way - Flybe last year under £50

Edinburgh to Southampton in October about £156 per person return - Flybe last year under a £100

These are more akin to Eastern Airways Prices.

A bit galling when I am Flying Easyjet BHX-EDI for £20 this Saturday.

You do get a bag and refreshments on Loganair .

Is this the future for Anglo-Scottish niche routes ?
Flybe went bust. Copying their prices, particularly if load factors are low, would be the economics of the asylum.
 

Butts

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Flybe went bust. Copying their prices, particularly if load factors are low, would be the economics of the asylum.

Not everywhere, I believe they did have some profitable routes but expanded too quickly into a lot of diverse and unfathomable routes.

I for one miss them, mind you I still miss BMI Baby !!
 

Wolfie

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Not everywhere, I believe they did have some profitable routes but expanded too quickly into a lot of diverse and unfathomable routes.

I for one miss them, mind you I still miss BMI Baby !!
Fair comment. Just because the company lost money that doesn't mean that was the case on every route.
 

Tetchytyke

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A bit galling when I am Flying Easyjet BHX-EDI for £20 this Saturday.

This has been the problem for all domestic operators, EasyJet dumping capacity and dragging down prices for everyone else. APD alone is £13, EasyJet must be selling that seat at a loss.

Here on The Rock we lost daily flights to Belfast a few years ago. EasyJet came in and capacity-dumped on the weekends, and it was the weekend yields that were making the route sustainable for a daily service by Flybe. So now it's weekend only, and that was before Covid. Same with Bristol. Needless to say you don't see cheap Easyjet fares now.

I think the London flights might go the same way. The Heathrow flight went when Flybe did, and BA CityFlyer have just pulled the City flight. Logainair, who ran it for BA, are going to still run it at a reduced frequency but only as a trial. I can see EasyJet being the last ones standing, to Gatwick.

Fair comment. Just because the company lost money that doesn't mean that was the case on every route.

I think Flybe did have profitable routes, and the expansion with the Embraers didn't do them any good. But don't underestimate competition. As above, EasyJet were good at capacity dumping with an A319 at the busy times, with the effect that a profitable route became unprofitable due to reduced peak yields.

Price dumping also has the effect of suppressing fares at other times, because the expectations people have about cost become too low. If EasyJet will do it for £20 on a weekend, £60 on a weekday looks extortionate.

You do get a bag and refreshments on Loganair

And a 15kg bag would cost you £20 on EasyJet.

More of an issue for me than you, but Loganair charge no fare to infants sitting on knees and give a 33% discount to children. EasyJet charge £25 for an infant to sit on your knee and offer no child discount.

Goes to show that EasyJet aren't that cheap after all. From here, unless you get one of the loss-leader specials, there's not much between them and Loganair if you have kids or a bag. But the headline fare sets unreasonable expectations.

I don't like EasyJet, in case you'd not noticed :lol:
 
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BayPaul

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Flybe used to do this from Southampton to Leeds or Newcastle I think? Combining multiple short legs into one for operational efficiency.

Air Southwest used to do a clever pair of these. I think it was a Leeds to Newquay and a Manchester to Plymouth, both of which stopped at Bristol at the same time. The planes parked nose to nose in Bristol, and passengers going Leeds to Plymouth or Manchester to Newquay walked straight from plane door to plane door, with the planes only spending about 10 minutes on the ground in Bristol. This gave all 3 of their SW airports a link to both Manchester and Leeds that didn't take much longer than a direct flight would have done, but only used 2 planes.
I flew this once, I can't quite remember why, and remember that the plane I was on arrived about 90 minutes late in Bristol. I was the only person transferring to the Plymouth plane, so I wasn't very popular with all of the passengers on that plane who had been waiting over an hour on the tarmac for me to board!
 

Bald Rick

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Air Southwest used to do a clever pair of these. I think it was a Leeds to Newquay and a Manchester to Plymouth, both of which stopped at Bristol at the same time. The planes parked nose to nose in Bristol, and passengers going Leeds to Plymouth or Manchester to Newquay walked straight from plane door to plane door, with the planes only spending about 10 minutes on the ground in Bristol. This gave all 3 of their SW airports a link to both Manchester and Leeds that didn't take much longer than a direct flight would have done, but only used 2 planes.
I flew this once, I can't quite remember why, and remember that the plane I was on arrived about 90 minutes late in Bristol. I was the only person transferring to the Plymouth plane, so I wasn't very popular with all of the passengers on that plane who had been waiting over an hour on the tarmac for me to board!

Was it hand luggage only, and if not how did they sort the bag transfer?
 
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