Bakerloo line: an embarrassment to London?

[Horizon22]

Actually I find the absence of continually scrolling displays and interminable auto announcements and positive.

Maybe, but not if you were a passenger with extra accessibility needs or a tourist.

 

[trebor79]

Maybe, but not if you were a passenger with extra accessibility needs or a tourist.

Funny, I've never a problem working out which stop I'm at, even on my very first trips to London.

 

[nlogax]

Can't speak for others but I find the Bakerloo a joy. Knackered, springy old seats, a ride to match and the eternal smell of hot brakes. The stock don't have long for this world so if there's any opportunity to use the line I take it. That and the Piccadilly are like a step back into the 80s.

Same goes for the Glasgow Subway.

 

[Journeyman]

Only ever saw them in a magazine, not real life but yes, it was the blue one.

Flickriver: Photoset '1986 Tube Stock' by Fortune13

Flickriver - view images as a 'river of photos' and more...

www.flickriver.com

Yeah - potentially quite interesting for longer distance passengers, while creating plenty of standing room for local use, but probably not a hugely efficient use of space overall.

Personally, I think the S8 layout is good, where the transverse bays are on one side with longitudinal on the other. It seems to work quite well and provide a decent balance.

 

[RichJF]

The Bakerloo is the Underround's de-facto Heritage line in a way. It's one of the quietest lines & fits in with London's quirky charm. Much more pleasant than travelling on other crush-loaded lines on newer stock!

Out of interest, is the 1973 stock physically able to fit down the Bakerloo (car length longer than the 1972 stock)?
I wouldn't be surprised to see some 1973 stuff move over onto the Bakerloo when the new Inspiro starts rolling on the Piccadilly.

They should've kept the 1983 stock for the Bakerloo - my complete & utter opinion

 

[Journeyman]

Out of interest, is the 1973 stock physically able to fit down the Bakerloo (car length longer than the 1972 stock)?
I wouldn't be surprised to see some 1973 stuff move over onto the Bakerloo when the new Inspiro starts rolling on the Piccadilly.

The 73 Stock was designed specifically for the Picc, and although it's not massively restricted in where it can go, I think there's issues involved in redeploying it, as the Yerkes-era tube lines have some tight spots in them. I suspect it wouldn't be entirely straightforward, for stock that might be in better condition but is barely any newer. Infrastructure works, training etc might all be too expensive and complicated to be worthwhile.

 

[XAM2175]

Funny, I've never a problem working out which stop I'm at, even on my very first trips to London.

The provision of both audio and visual passenger information systems is a requirement of the PRM TSI and its implementation in the accessibility regulations. Any benefit to infrequent travellers - and I do believe there is benefit - is secondary.

However I also agree completely that many implementations at the present have come to be intrusive and annoying.

 

[Mikey C]

The 73 Stock was designed specifically for the Picc, and although it's not massively restricted in where it can go, I think there's issues involved in redeploying it, as the Yerkes-era tube lines have some tight spots in them. I suspect it wouldn't be entirely straightforward, for stock that might be in better condition but is barely any newer. Infrastructure works, training etc might all be too expensive and complicated to be worthwhile.

The 95 stock on the Northern Line has similar length carriages as the 72 stock, and that copes with the sharp bends, such as at Embankment. I imagine the work needed on the Bakerloo to make the 73 stock fit would be significant, and not worth it for their short life

 

[greyman42]

Some quite major works including new interchanges, lifts and an entrance. The works will sever the Aldwych branch from the rest of the network.

I find the current interchanges OK. Do you know what they have in mind?

 

[AlbertBeale]

I find the current interchanges OK. Do you know what they have in mind?

I think the current interchanges at Holborn are far from OK during (normal - not now!) rush-hours, with people queueing to get on escalators to change between lines - and sometimes queueing to get in and out of the station at all. As I understand it there's been provision made, whilst digging holes in the area in connection with Crossrail works, for a new access into the station north-east of the current entrance (on Proctor Street, near the west side of Red Lion Square). I believe the idea is that by spreading the load between two entrances (although it's not necessarily in the direction that most people arriving at the station are going, so I'm not sure how popular it would be) the congestion would be eased. Even if the new development was primarily to feed down to each line, rather than being a convenient interchange between them as well [depends on the layout of course; I don't remember seeing any plans], the reduction in station entries/exits via the current entrance would itself relieve pressure on the existing interchange. (Which currently relies on the same escalators for interchange as are part of the route between the Picc and the street.)

I think the shafts down to access the lines will approach the Piccadilly platforms near their north end, hence (presumably) get in the way of the junction connection from the Aldwych shuttle. Maybe some of the shuttle platform infrastructure would even be put to new use for this? But I suppose financial cut-backs, and lessening of peak loads with work changes, mean that this won't happen in the foreseeable future now - which is certainly great news for cayonistas who dream of using the Aldwych shuttle as the basis of a new cross-river connection...

Woops - sorry - I wrote this reply without stopping to think that it (and indeed what I'm replying to!!) is going very off-topic in terms of the glories of the Bakerloo...

 

[greyman42]

Thanks for the reply, it was very informative. I don't use Holborn in the rush hour so did not realise there were problems at this time.

 

[MatthewRead]

The 95 stock on the Northern Line has similar length carriages as the 72 stock, and that copes with the sharp bends, such as at Embankment. I imagine the work needed on the Bakerloo to make the 73 stock fit would be significant, and not worth it for their short life

Years ago there were plans to replace the 1995 tube stock on the Northern line and the 1996 tube stock on the Jubilee line. The 1995 tube stock was meant to go the Bakerloo line while the 1996 tube stock was going to go to the Piccadilly line.

 

[Huntergreed]

Took the B-loo earlier today, very fun to ride around on. Old, banging trains, squealing breaks, flickering lights, dirty old stations. Proper London Underground

 

[Scotrail12]

Years ago there were plans to replace the 1995 tube stock on the Northern line and the 1996 tube stock on the Jubilee line. The 1995 tube stock was meant to go the Bakerloo line while the 1996 tube stock was going to go to the Piccadilly line.

Would there have been enough 1996 stock for the Piccadilly? Would have thought that 95 for Picc and 96 for Bakerloo would have been more likely when taking numbers of trains into account.

 

[Mikey C]

Years ago there were plans to replace the 1995 tube stock on the Northern line and the 1996 tube stock on the Jubilee line. The 1995 tube stock was meant to go the Bakerloo line while the 1996 tube stock was going to go to the Piccadilly line.

I don't remember reading that anywhere, and it would be made extra complicated by the Alstom PFI agreement for the 95 stock, with them maintaining the trains as well

 

[Journeyman]

I don't remember reading that anywhere, and it would be made extra complicated by the Alstom PFI agreement for the 95 stock, with them maintaining the trains as well

Really not convinced there's much truth in it.

 

[MatthewRead]

Really not convinced there's much truth in it.

It was back in 2012 when this was proposed.

 

[Journeyman]

It was back in 2012 when this was proposed.

Got a source? I'm a seasoned Tube-watcher and I've never come across it anywhere. For starters there's far too many 95s for the Bakerloo and not enough 96s for the Picc, and although they look similar, they're completely incompatible with each other.

 

[MatthewRead]

Got a source? I'm a seasoned Tube-watcher and I've never come across it anywhere. For starters there's far too many 95s for the Bakerloo and not enough 96s for the Picc, and although they look similar, they're completely incompatible with each other.

It was one of the Rail magazines.

 

[Nym]

Some transverse seating will be lost when the wheelchair spaces are fitted.

No it won't
Wheelchair spaces are going in the special trailer.

 

[bramling]

Got a source? I'm a seasoned Tube-watcher and I've never come across it anywhere. For starters there's far too many 95s for the Bakerloo and not enough 96s for the Picc, and although they look similar, they're completely incompatible with each other.

There were certainly some rumours floating around, however I don’t think it was every anything more than someone’s idea.

One rumour certainly stemmed from the 95 stock getting blue grab poles, however this was simply a LU design idea at the time to give everything corporate blue, which seems to have subsequently changed to line colours again!

Moving the 95 stock to the Picc Line would actually have made some sense when the Northern was planned to get extra trains, as this would have avoided the Northern having a mixed fleet. However again I don’t think this was ever more than a rumour.

The 95 and 96 stocks are fairly similar, to the point where someone trained on one would certainly be able to get on the other and work out what to do, it’s things like switches in different places and a different detainment device rather than fundamental differences. Beneath the skin there’s some technical differences - for example the later 95 stock has a more modern traction package and compressors. One difference is the 95 stock is a little more powerful, it will quite happily reach 60 mph on a steep rising gradient whereas a 96 stock is a little less quick footed though still not bad.

 

[Dstock7080]

No it won't
Wheelchair spaces are going in the special trailer.

Thanks
this was politely answered by @Lewlew immediately after my post

 

[AlbertBeale]

No it won't
Wheelchair spaces are going in the special trailer.

Sorry - what's the "special trailer"?

I seem to remember that all 4 "end" units have transverse seats - ie the ones at each end of the block of 4 and at each end of the block of 3? Is that wrong? Or is the "special" trailer the "inside" (ie non-driving-compartment) one at the end of the block of 3? I guess that one, conceptually, doesn't fit the pattern of the others, which are either an end unit with a compartment, or just an inside trailer. Is that's what's meant by special? If so, maybe I'm misrememebring it as having transverse seats. I'll have to find time for a nip down below to have a look...

 

[OxtedL]

Got a source? I'm a seasoned Tube-watcher and I've never come across it anywhere. For starters there's far too many 95s for the Bakerloo and not enough 96s for the Picc, and although they look similar, they're completely incompatible with each other.

Around 2011-13 TfL were looking at how they could get more trains to support the Northern Line Extension and the Jubilee Line Upgrade (33tph)

New 95/96 compatible stock was eventually seen as probably too expensive. At the same time the new deep level tube line was also being seriously talked about, the view being that the Piccadilly and Bakerloo lines both needed new stock as soon as possible after 2020.

So you had paper exercises conducted (e.g. 95 stock cascade to Bakerloo) trying to see if you could solve both problems at once by putting the new deep level stock on e.g. one branch of the Northern line first.

I don't think anything was seriously proposed but there was lots of speculation from people who like counting things to see how they hypothetically work.

As it turns out, the Jubilee Line has managed without extra sets by upgrading the turnback at West Hampstead and some other tweaks, whilst the Northern line extension will be managed by ...er... some kind of dark magic arithmetic.

 

[Nym]

Sorry - what's the "special trailer"?

I seem to remember that all 4 "end" units have transverse seats - ie the ones at each end of the block of 4 and at each end of the block of 3? Is that wrong? Or is the "special" trailer the "inside" (ie non-driving-compartment) one at the end of the block of 3? I guess that one, conceptually, doesn't fit the pattern of the others, which are either an end unit with a compartment, or just an inside trailer. Is that's what's meant by special? If so, maybe I'm misrememebring it as having transverse seats. I'll have to find time for a nip down below to have a look...

The special trailer is the trailer of the 3 car unit, special in many ways;

It's neither A nor D.
It has two sets of separate braking systems, one per bogie.
Includes the cross over for control within the trailer, so it presents A and D at the relevant ends, rather than at the A-D interface of normal trailers, usually the A end of the D.
Is electrically both A and D while being neither A or D.

But... 1972TS 3 car units are (used to be) special in their own way in that they could technically be A or D at their full cab end, depending on which way they're coupled, but that's thanks to the unique way that control wiring is done on the 1972TS (And 1967TS). That's not the case any more now that all the four car units have only got Emergency Couplers at the A end.

 

[Mikey C]

Around 2011-13 TfL were looking at how they could get more trains to support the Northern Line Extension and the Jubilee Line Upgrade (33tph)

New 95/96 compatible stock was eventually seen as probably too expensive. At the same time the new deep level tube line was also being seriously talked about, the view being that the Piccadilly and Bakerloo lines both needed new stock as soon as possible after 2020.

So you had paper exercises conducted (e.g. 95 stock cascade to Bakerloo) trying to see if you could solve both problems at once by putting the new deep level stock on e.g. one branch of the Northern line first.

I don't think anything was seriously proposed but there was lots of speculation from people who like counting things to see how they hypothetically work.

As it turns out, the Jubilee Line has managed without extra sets by upgrading the turnback at West Hampstead and some other tweaks, whilst the Northern line extension will be managed by ...er... some kind of dark magic arithmetic.

Wasn't one of the other suggestions to split the Northern Line, buy new NTfL trains for one branch, and use the 95s to improve the other branch and Jubilee? The 95s and 96s aren't the same, but clearly related

 

[Journeyman]

Wasn't one of the other suggestions to split the Northern Line, buy new NTfL trains for one branch, and use the 95s to improve the other branch and Jubilee? The 95s and 96s aren't the same, but clearly related

None of this sounds very official to me. I smell crayons.

 

[Vespa]

I switch my h

Having the displays help those hard of hearing. The Bakerloo announcements are also way too quiet, I struggle to hear them - they should try to upgrade them to a newer version like what they have on the Victoria Line.

I switch my hearing aid off on the tube, I find it peaceful without all that shrieking and roaring, it actually gives me a different perspective you notice other things more without the distraction

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The special trailer is the trailer of the 3 car unit, special in many ways;

It's neither A nor D.
It has two sets of separate braking systems, one per bogie.
Includes the cross over for control within the trailer, so it presents A and D at the relevant ends, rather than at the A-D interface of normal trailers, usually the A end of the D.
Is electrically both A and D while being neither A or D.

But... 1972TS 3 car units are (used to be) special in their own way in that they could technically be A or D at their full cab end, depending on which way they're coupled, but that's thanks to the unique way that control wiring is done on the 1972TS (And 1967TS). That's not the case any more now that all the four car units have only got Emergency Couplers at the A end.

Sorry, what do A and D mean here?

 

[AlbertBeale]

The special trailer is the trailer of the 3 car unit, special in many ways;

It's neither A nor D.
It has two sets of separate braking systems, one per bogie.
Includes the cross over for control within the trailer, so it presents A and D at the relevant ends, rather than at the A-D interface of normal trailers, usually the A end of the D.
Is electrically both A and D while being neither A or D.

But... 1972TS 3 car units are (used to be) special in their own way in that they could technically be A or D at their full cab end, depending on which way they're coupled, but that's thanks to the unique way that control wiring is done on the 1972TS (And 1967TS). That's not the case any more now that all the four car units have only got Emergency Couplers at the A end.

I presume the trailer you mean then is the middle one of the set of 3, like the middle 2 of the set of 4 are trailers? I nipped onto the Bakerloo this evening to check my memory, and - as I thought above - the non-driving-cab end unit of the set of 3 does have transverse seats, as with the 3 with-driving-cab end units. I'm surprised that there's anything special about that middle unit (of the 3), since I can't see why it would be different from the 2 middle units on the 4-set.