Bakerloo line timetable changes

[Mojo]

With effect from 16th May a new timetable commences on the Bakerloo line.

Harrow and Wealdstone sees a reduction in the Off peak service from 6tph to 4tph. Stonebridge Park moves from 9tph to 8tph. The main section of line reduces from 3-3½ Min headways to 3½-4 Min headways.

Saturday daytime services remain largely unchanged whilst Sunday afternoon headways reduce in line with the changes on Weekdays.

 

[jfollows]

Are the changes you mention because of an increased frequency on the Euston-Watford services from the same date, which I believe I have seen mentioned elsewhere?

EDIT: As in #1,024

Not sure if it's already been mentioned, but there's a recast of the Off-Peak Watford DC Lines services from 16th May:

London Overground moves to a clockface 4tph (00, 15, 30 and 45 from both Euston and Watford).

Beyond Queens Park, four Bakerloo Line services an hour will terminate at Stonebridge Park, with a further four continuing to Harrow & Wealdstone.

I'm not sure if this represents an increase in the Euston-Watford frequency or not.

 

[Dibbo4025]

Are the changes you mention because of an increased frequency on the Euston-Watford services from the same date, which I believe I have seen mentioned elsewhere?

EDIT: As in #1,024

I'm not sure if this represents an increase in the Euston-Watford frequency or not.

Same frequency, just even interval. There is talk though of using the 710/3s on the line to increase capacity though

 

[jfollows]

Same frequency, just even interval. There is talk though of using the 710/3s on the line to increase capacity though

Thank you, I had read (but misinterpreted) the original post I quoted as implying an increased frequency as you can see, good to have this clarified, thank you.

 

[swt_passenger]

Same frequency, just even interval. There is talk though of using the 710/3s on the line to increase capacity though

Entirely predictable. Moving from 3 x 5 car LO per hour to 4 x 4 car was a strange idea at the time it was decided. But that’s probably OT for this forum…

 

[Aictos]

Entirely predictable. Moving from 3 x 5 car LO per hour to 4 x 4 car was a strange idea at the time it was decided. But that’s probably OT for this forum…

Mmm, a increase of one carriage per hour per direction... It must have been thought to be worth it plus the benefits of a train every 15 mins is more appealing then a train every 20 mins especially on such a highly used metro line which Euston to Watford via the DC Lines certainly is.

 

[swt_passenger]

Mmm, a increase of one carriage per hour per direction... It must have been thought to be worth it plus the benefits of a train every 15 mins is more appealing then a train every 20 mins especially on such a highly used metro line which Euston to Watford via the DC Lines certainly is.

I assumed they did it to save roughly the cost of a whole train, ie 6 intermediate carriages. Of course they probably still have options to extend anyway.

 

[rebmcr]

I assumed they did it to save roughly the cost of a whole train, ie 6 intermediate carriages. Of course they probably still have options to extend anyway.

To keep the benefits of a bigger fleet, they have to stay 4 car for the GOBLIN. TfL's philosophy is for minimum 4tph anyway.

 

[cactustwirly]

Mmm, a increase of one carriage per hour per direction... It must have been thought to be worth it plus the benefits of a train every 15 mins is more appealing then a train every 20 mins especially on such a highly used metro line which Euston to Watford via the DC Lines certainly is.

But if you're going to the West End or the South Bank is a reduction of 2tph north of Stonebridge Park.

I wonder what the usage stats are Vs LO

 

[adrock1976]

Will there be Bakerloo trains that start/terminate at Queens Park?

 

[cactustwirly]

Will there be Bakerloo trains that start/terminate at Queens Park?

The vast majority of services terminate at Queen Park (16tph I think?)

 

[bramling]

But if you're going to the West End or the South Bank is a reduction of 2tph north of Stonebridge Park.

I wonder what the usage stats are Vs LO

I wouldn’t say that’s a *major* issue as there’s a pretty simple interchange at Queen’s Park, or even Stonebridge Park.

Depends on what preferences are though - some people might prefer the idea of doing as much of the journey as possible on a mainline-sized train - and of course there’s always the option to travel all the way to Euston and change to the Underground there.

I’d say on balance the new pattern isn’t too bad north of Queen’s Park, and is a bit more balanced than having an uneven 9tph service which is what it was north of Stonebridge Park for many years.

The new timetable seems a bit sparse south of Queen’s Park though.

 

[LU_timetabler]

When the LO ran 3tph north of Queens Park (NR code: QPW; LU code: QUP), and LU ran 9tph (of which 6tph to Harrow) it was all pretty even. The LO was a clockface 20 mins, the LU Harrow's were clockface 10 mins and the 3 to STP were even with themselves every 20 mins, exactly 10 mins apart from the LO's.

The problem came when LO went to 4tph. The LU spec for north of QUP did not change causing uneven LO, a nearly but not quite even LU to Harrow, and a totally not even STP service.

The straw that broke the camel's back was that to provide the LU service all the excess minutes for reversing were piled onto the STP trains, the Harrow trains were very tightly timed, and several of the QUP reverses were minimum reversal time as well - all the way through the off-peak.

This meant, if you got behind in the morning peak, they couldn't catch up. And if there was any sort of minor disruption anywhere several trains had no slack in the timetable for recovery. The result was drivers ending up with lots finishing their turn late, because control just couldn't get the line back on time. Not surprisingly this is bad news for drivers, line control and passengers alike.

The result a new timetable, with off-peak reductions. 4tph to both Harrow and STP fits nicely with 4tph LO to Watford, so no one has a compromised timetable. And slight reductions in the core timetable south of QUP, and one extra train step-back at Elephant & Castle combine to provide a more robust service.

Having previously lived on the LO part of this line I could never understand why on weekdays it had the same service all day north of QUP. The section north of QUP was "over-served" during the off-peak and under served in the peaks.

 

[Taunton]

The straw that broke the camel's back was that to provide the LU service all the excess minutes for reversing were piled onto the STP trains, the Harrow trains were very tightly timed, and several of the QUP reverses were minimum reversal time as well - all the way through the off-peak. This meant, if you got behind in the morning peak, they couldn't catch up. And if there was any sort of minor disruption anywhere several trains had no slack in the timetable for recovery. The result was drivers ending up with lots finishing their turn late, because control just couldn't get the line back on time.

That reminds me of a wonderful account in a magazine from BR days on the DC line quite some years ago, when the Bakerloo service ran through all day to Watford. Weekend works were in progress, and a bus link was to be in place between Wembley and Harrow. Both operators continued their normal weekend frequencies beyond that, including on the shuttle at the north end.

A few days before the event, the works were cancelled. BR announced they would run the normal through service. The Underground stated they could not do so at short notice because the staff rosters had already been issued. So the BR trains on the DC ran through, while the Underground ran to a completely different timetable, reversing and of course getting in the way. The substitute buses ran, although it was much quicker to wait for the following BR train. Chaos all weekend.

 

[dmncf]

Same frequency, just even interval. There is talk though of using the 710/3s on the line to increase capacity though

5-car 710376 is on the Euston - Watford service today, currently on https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C26722/2021-05-20/detailed

 

[Dibbo4025]

There is a 5-car Class 710/2 on the Euston - Watford service today, currently on https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C26722/2021-05-20/detailed

710376 again. Currently the only line they can be used on - too unreliable for the NLL

 

[richardcoughla]

710376 again. Currently the only line they can be used on - too unreliable for the NLL

Won't they be used on the NLL then?

 

[Dibbo4025]

Won't they be used on the NLL then?

That's still in the plan, and the LTP diagrams but too much of a performance risk with current reliability. Also if a unit were to fail and require assistance this basically requires another 710, which are much more common on the DC currently

 

[AlbertBeale]

That's still in the plan, and the LTP diagrams but too much of a performance risk with current reliability. Also if a unit were to fail and require assistance this basically requires another 710, which are much more common on the DC currently

What are "LTP diagrams"? Thanks,

 

[Dibbo4025]

What are "LTP diagrams"? Thanks,

Sorry, long term plan diagrams, the base diagrams based on the working timetable

 

[AlbertBeale]

Sorry, long term plan diagrams, the base diagrams based on the working timetable

Thanks!

 

[Surreytraveller]

Mmm, a increase of one carriage per hour per direction... It must have been thought to be worth it plus the benefits of a train every 15 mins is more appealing then a train every 20 mins especially on such a highly used metro line which Euston to Watford via the DC Lines certainly is.

But how many passengers can you fit inside a mainline carriage compared to an underground one?

 

[davews]

I realised this change had happened this morning. Waterloo to South Kenton, just missed one train and had to wait the best part of 15 minutes for the next Harrow and Wealdstone one. Took me longer to do that journey than it did for me to get from Martins Heron to Waterloo! But interesting observation - the three trains before, two to Queens Park and one to Stonebridge Park were all packed and the platform packed. When the H and W one came in the platform was deserted and after Paddington I more or less had the carriage to myself.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I realised this change had happened this morning. Waterloo to South Kenton, just missed one train and had to wait the best part of 15 minutes for the next Harrow and Wealdstone one. Took me longer to do that journey than it did for me to get from Martins Heron to Waterloo! But interesting observation - the three trains before, two to Queens Park and one to Stonebridge Park were all packed and the platform packed. When the H and W one came in the platform was deserted and after Paddington I more or less had the carriage to myself.

Surely you should follow the very old advice from LT days , to take the first available train and change as neccesary ?

In this case to Queens Park - and with fullish trains admittedly - but what as the real risks at the moment. (and am not armchair commenting , been on a fair number of busy tube trains of late)

 

[davews]

But presumably I would still have to wait for the same 4tph H&W train whereever I decided to change so the overall journey would have taken the same. (and I am not worried about over crowded trains, the more the merrier in my view)

 

[Mojo]

But presumably I would still have to wait for the same 4tph H&W train whereever I decided to change so the overall journey would have taken the same. (and I am not worried about over crowded trains, the more the merrier in my view)

The idea being that you would probably be able to change onto an Overground train. There is also the possibility at certain times of the day, or during service disruption that a train may come off the sidings / out the depot and it is also not unknown during service disruption that a shuttle service runs between Harrow/Wealdstone and Queens Park (actually reverses at Kilburn High Road empty).

 

[LU_timetabler]

Yes, if you have just missed a Harrow train anywhere south of Queens Park - the advice is to get the first train to Queens Park and join the Overground there, which will be running pretty much exactly half-way out of phase with the LU's to Harrow.

 

[cle]

Also from Martins Heron - travel via Richmond and WJ surely? Must be quicker and cheaper!

 

[rebmcr]

Also from Martins Heron - travel via Richmond and WJ surely? Must be quicker and cheaper!

Just goes to show that the "Tube Map effect" is real. If there's a line on that map, travellers will assume there is a frequent service with no changes, and not even consider whether to consider alternatives.

 

[davews]

I know I could have done it via Richmond but last time I did it I was stuck at WJ for ages due to the Overground to Richmond 2tph at that time. I was coming back from Hendon Central afterwards which was easier on the Northern back to Waterloo. I have learnt from all my walking of the Capital Ring and Loop that if you need more than one or two outer zone tube trips it is cheaper to do it with a Travel Card (at the railcard price).