Basingstoke to Southampton Electrification

[Nym]

I was under the impression that this was going to be dual system electrification with 3rd rail and OHLE systems in place, but having just gotten my copy of E&T they seem to be under the impression that this isn't the case.

Would I be right in thinking that they're putting 2+2 together and making a massive mistake again, like when they said, "The British company Bombardier"...?

Attached below for non IET Members..

 

[joeykins82]

Been covered on here before: overhead AC and 3rd rail DC coexistence is only economically viable for short changeover sections because of the shared voltage return paths so for a section as large as Basingstoke to Southampton Docks it's one or t'other. The DC equipment for that section is at the end of its life so NR have (wisely IMO) chosen to replace it with OHLE instead of renewing the DC kit.

 

[The Colonel]

Alan Williams' column in the latest Modern Railways is very pertinent on the subject.

I just hope that if they do decide to wire it that it isn't necessary to enlarge Southampton Tunnel a third time.

 

[John55]

I was under the impression that this was going to be dual system electrification with 3rd rail and OHLE systems in place, but having just gotten my copy of E&T they seem to be under the impression that this isn't the case.

Would I be right in thinking that they're putting 2+2 together and making a massive mistake again, like when they said, "The British company Bombardier"...?

Attached below for non IET Members..

View attachment 12218

From the HLOS statement published on 16th July 2012;

The southern end of the Electric Spine entails the conversion of a section of the existing Southern ‘third rail’ (750V DC) electrification system to the more modern and capable ‘overhead’ (25kV AC) system to upgrade its capability. The Secretary of State also wishes the industry to develop a longer-term proposition and business case for the systematic upgrade from DC to AC of the whole Southern network, for consideration for future control periods. As part of this work the industry will wish to treat the conversion work required for Southampton to Basingstoke as a pilot scheme for such a potential modernisation programme, and review plans for renewing or upgrading the DC network to avoid the risk of nugatory expenditure.

 

[Nym]

Thanks John.

Will be rather irritating if they replace equipment early rather than when it's life expired and we're left with Diesel oop norf...

 

[OxtedL]

What kind of state would any substation equipment etc likely be in?

Obviously I'm leading nowhere with this, as I can't think of anywhere where second hand third rail infrastructure could radically improve business cases. (whistles innocently)

 

[ainsworth74]

Obviously I'm leading nowhere with this, as I can't think of anywhere where second hand third rail infrastructure could radically improve business cases. (whistles innocently)

Really? Because I would have thought that the Oxted line would have been a good candidate for second hand third rail infrastructure? Or don't you agree

 

[455/8]

forgive me for sounding stupid here but surely converting the section of line between Basingstoke and Southampton will cause a few problems to SWT? as it's been said before 3rd rail and over head cannot work together for long streches, so does that mean SWT Desiro's will have tobecome dual voltage if running between say southampton and Waterloo? then if continuing further to say poole/Weymouth have to change back to 3rd rail DC or am I missing something here?

 

[swt_passenger]

I was under the impression that this was going to be dual system electrification with 3rd rail and OHLE systems in place...

You might have been reading all the posts here from people who didn't understand what 'conversion' means in plain English...

The reasons it cannot be dual over a significant distance have been adressed in quite a few threads by myself and others.

 

[OxtedL]

Really? Because I would have thought that the Oxted line would have been a good candidate for second hand third rail infrastructure? Or don't you agree

Goodness me what a good idea! Your words not mine!

I don't actually have the first idea what you could try and recycle though, so I'm going to sit back and let the electrical engineers tear me to pieces before I start flinging emails off to the DfT.

forgive me for sounding stupid here but surely converting the section of line between Basingstoke and Southampton will cause a few problems to SWT? as it's been said before 3rd rail and over head cannot work together for long streches, so does that mean SWT Desiro's will have tobecome dual voltage if running between say southampton and Waterloo? then if continuing further to say poole/Weymouth have to change back to 3rd rail DC or am I missing something here?

No, I think you've got it in one there.

 

[swt_passenger]

forgive me for sounding stupid here but surely converting the section of line between Basingstoke and Southampton will cause a few problems to SWT? as it's been said before 3rd rail and over head cannot work together for long streches, so does that mean SWT Desiro's will have tobecome dual voltage if running between say southampton and Waterloo? then if continuing further to say poole/Weymouth have to change back to 3rd rail DC or am I missing something here?

Yes that's right. SWT units will need pantographs and transformers fitting in the spaces already reserved for them. As discussed in depth in this forum when the announcement was made.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What kind of state would any substation equipment etc likely be in?

All the extra equipment fitted to cope with strengthening the DC supplies for the Desiro fleet is practically brand new - much of it has only been installed a few years, maybe 5 or 6?

There are a significant number of newish installations on the stretch in question - and as I've suggested in earlier threads they should definitely be recyclable into other areas.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Will be rather irritating if they replace equipment early rather than when it's life expired and we're left with Diesel oop norf...

I dont think they will reaplce early, the buiness case relies on changover to 25KV AC is cheaper than renewal. So the logic would be it is done on renewal.

 

[hwl]

What kind of state would any substation equipment etc likely be in?

Obviously I'm leading nowhere with this, as I can't think of anywhere where second hand third rail infrastructure could radically improve business cases. (whistles innocently)

From conversations with late family friend who oversaw the installation of most of the equipment upon original electrification it would need to be replaced at the time slated for conversion with the exception of the equipment added a decade ago for the Siemens trains so a small amount of substation equipment could be available to use elsewhere.

I can think of a certain line you might be referring to that was slated in the HLOS (illustraive option page 7) for 10 car platform lengthening but with no detail mentioned on how this was going to be achieved (no available rolling stock) which raised 3 options:

a) lengthen platforms and get more compatible DMUs

b) lengthen platforms and 3rd rail electrify with spare equipment from elsewhere and use spare 377s ex-Thameslink in due time.

c) lengthen platforms and OH electrify and use spare 377s ex-Thameslink leaving the surplus 3rd rail equipment to replace stuff elsewhere on the network as it needs renewal. The Uckfield line is the most ideal line on "Southern" to be converted to OHLE first. It would presumable also reduce loading on some of the BML substations assuming the swap over point is Sanderstead...

 

[OxtedL]

I've wondered about OHL before, particularly with the ever increasing amount of dual voltage stock circulating in the area, but there are a shed load of tunnels on the Oxted Line which might make that expensive.

Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Upgrading Desiros to dual mode is fine for Waterloo services, but what happens to the Southern 3rd rail EMUs which work into Southampton?
I don't know the line well but the last 2 miles into Southampton are over the L&SW route.
Either St Denys-Southampton Central will need to be dual voltage, or the Southern EMUs will need to be dual voltage (eg 313, 377).

 

[TheGrew]

Upgrading Desiros to dual mode is fine for Waterloo services, but what happens to the Southern 3rd rail EMUs which work into Southampton?
I don't know the line well but the last 2 miles into Southampton are over the L&SW route.
Either St Denys-Southampton Central will need to be dual voltage, or the Southern EMUs will need to be dual voltage (eg 313, 377).

The 313s only run as far as Portsmouth in normal service as far as I am aware. The 377s are dual voltage (or can be converted anyway) so that shouldn't be too much of a problem.
What I am interested in is whether they decide to convert the Eastleigh to Fareham line to OHLE at the same time (with the changeover on the single track section on approach to Fareham, or if they convert it at Eastleigh. Ultimately there will be 4 changeover places (Basingstoke, Eastleigh, St Denys & Southampton Docks/Millbrook/Redbridge)

 

[Pen Mill]

The 313s only run as far as Portsmouth in normal service as far as I am aware. The 377s are dual voltage (or can be converted anyway) so that shouldn't be too much of a problem.
What I am interested in is whether they decide to convert the Eastleigh to Fareham line to OHLE at the same time (with the changeover on the single track section on approach to Fareham, or if they convert it at Eastleigh. Ultimately there will be 4 changeover places (Basingstoke, Eastleigh, St Denys & Southampton Docks/Millbrook/Redbridge)

Am I right in thinking that the 377/5s will be released back to Southern when Thameslink is up & running ? If so job solved ?

 

[150001]

Sorry, but instead of replacing already electrified routes, why not electrify some more non-wired routes!

 

[DXMachina]

unifying the existing electrification does actually improve the benefit/cost ratio for further electrification, by giving a greater choice of end-destinations for electric services

Eg, wires through to southampton on the southern end make it more logical to string wires to more northern freight destinations

 

[Nym]

It should just be done objectively on cost to benefit ratio, simple as.

For example, when 3rd rail kit is life expired, if it's cheaper to OHLE convert than it is to replace 3rd rail, then crack on and put up OHLE.

 

[BananaRepublic]

The DC equipment for that section is at the end of its life....

What kind of state would any substation equipment etc likely be in?

All the extra equipment fitted to cope with strengthening the DC supplies for the Desiro fleet is practically brand new - much of it has only been installed a few years, maybe 5 or 6?

There are a significant number of newish installations on the stretch in question.....

From conversations with late family friend who oversaw the installation of most of the equipment upon original electrification it would need to be replaced at the time slated for conversion with the exception of the equipment added a decade ago for the Siemens trains so a small amount of substation equipment could be available to use elsewhere.....

How much and what equipment will be time expired?
The whole section of this line has lots of fairly new power supply and substation equipment, as mentioned above.
From casual observation, what appears to have been all the old trackside substations were cleared away and replaced with shiny big new substations only a few years ago.

 

[Nym]

Sub stations might be new, but the other parts may well be approaching life expired, and I'm sure the equipment that isn't will be used elsewhere, perhaps providing additional feeder points for Southampton to Weymouth?

 

[TheGrew]

It might be true that some new substations were put in for the desiro (if I remember correctly there is one at the southern end of platform 1 at Winchester) however this power upgrade still didn't provide enough power to run the 444s/450s at their full power output an they have had to be derated. In addition to this surely if one of the other ideas is to use electric traction for both freight & XC services that this would draw even more power so the idea of switching to 25kv (I assume auto-transformer as well) is an appealing one in the longer term.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Sorry, but instead of replacing already electrified routes, why not electrify some more non-wired routes!

Because the majority of the electrical equipment is life expired. It needs replacing.

 

[Robsignals]

Don't know if this has already been discussed but I have doubts about OHL being better than 3rd rail. Often see delays due to OHL faults reported but very rarely power supply problems on 3rd rail lines. OHL is vunerable to high winds and not winter proof. In certain conditions enough weight of ice can build up to bring the wires down requiring 'icebreaker' trains to run overnight, if they're not needed the first train has a tough time and has to be double unit. Heating strip on 3rd rail has proved a cheap and effective measure against icing.

On much of the old Southern Region where speeds are low and stations close together 3rd rail has distinct advantages, heavy transformers for high acceleration from starting placed lineside makes the large number of trains cheaper, lighter and more reliable. I wonder what regular travellers will make of the new improved system (after all the disruption installing it) when their trains are noticably slower to get going and grind to a halt at all times of year!

 

[Lrd]

I wonder what regular travellers will make of the new improved system (after all the disruption installing it) when their trains are noticably slower to get going and grind to a halt at all times of year!

I honestly can't wait! :roll:

I may have to start going via Salisbury with the trusty old diesel's.

 

[NSEFAN]

Don't know if this has already been discussed but I have doubts about OHL being better than 3rd rail. Often see delays due to OHL faults reported but very rarely power supply problems on 3rd rail lines. OHL is vunerable to high winds and not winter proof. In certain conditions enough weight of ice can build up to bring the wires down requiring 'icebreaker' trains to run overnight, if they're not needed the first train has a tough time and has to be double unit. Heating strip on 3rd rail has proved a cheap and effective measure against icing.

On much of the old Southern Region where speeds are low and stations close together 3rd rail has distinct advantages, heavy transformers for high acceleration from starting placed lineside makes the large number of trains cheaper, lighter and more reliable. I wonder what regular travellers will make of the new improved system (after all the disruption installing it) when their trains are noticably slower to get going and grind to a halt at all times of year!

I've seen plenty of delays attributed to 3rd rail equipment going wrong. Does anyone have any statistics to decide which system is more reliable?

I also thought that overhead systems were cheaper to run because fewer substations are needed to provide the same amount of power. I've also never heard of acceleration being reduced because of it.

 

[150001]

Stupid question probably, but can you have a AC 3rd rail?

 

[Nym]

Don't know if this has already been discussed but I have doubts about OHL being better than 3rd rail. Often see delays due to OHL faults reported but very rarely power supply problems on 3rd rail lines. OHL is vunerable to high winds and not winter proof. In certain conditions enough weight of ice can build up to bring the wires down requiring 'icebreaker' trains to run overnight, if they're not needed the first train has a tough time and has to be double unit. Heating strip on 3rd rail has proved a cheap and effective measure against icing.

On much of the old Southern Region where speeds are low and stations close together 3rd rail has distinct advantages, heavy transformers for high acceleration from starting placed lineside makes the large number of trains cheaper, lighter and more reliable. I wonder what regular travellers will make of the new improved system (after all the disruption installing it) when their trains are noticably slower to get going and grind to a halt at all times of year!

[youtube]kXXw7qQukjM[/youtube]

I think someone needs to look into the relative merits better, you can deliver significantly more power, significantly more efficiently by using OHLE...

You'll also find that the "Oh, it's already DC" argument falls very much on it's backside too, every new train since the 90s uses AC traction motors, granted from a DC Bus Bar but the increased draw capabilities of AC over DC very much make up for the extra weight, and allow the use of standardised components, changing 750V DC to something that isn't 750V DC to use is very expensive component wise, and non-standard.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Stupid question probably, but can you have a AC 3rd rail?

To achieve the same RMS power throughput you'd need a 1.414 times higher peak voltage and current, meaning you'd still need a significant amount of feeder stations to run at a low enough voltage to prevent flash over.

The insulators would have to be more complex too as there tends to be communications equipment around the same kind of voltage that wouldn't be immunised against high current low voltage AC in an environment where transinductive conduction is very easy. This isn't so much of an issue with insulated ground 25kV cables as the current is about 80 times lower.

 

[YorkshireBear]

. OHL is vunerable to high winds and not winter proof.

and third rail is winter proof??? what drugs have you been taking?