BBC reporting that heritage railways will run out of coal in 2021

[Charlie Smythe]

26,000 tonnes to heritage rail sector uses.

26,000 tonnes for the whole industry? Surely not, thats exceptionally low.

Does that include coal used for mainline steam traction, or just the coal used by steam locos operating on private railways?

 

[Titfield]

26,000 tonnes for the whole industry? Surely not, thats exceptionally low.

Does that include coal used for mainline steam traction, or just the coal used by steam locos operating on private railways?

Its the figure from the All Party Parliamentary Heritage Railway Group. There is a further 9000 tons used by other heritage users of coal (traction engines etc).

It is worth reading the report as it deals with many of the pertinent issues.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

The All Party Parliamentary Group on Heritage Rail issued a report on coal in July 2019.

Go to https://www.hra.uk.com/coal for the report.

IIRC Heritage Railways have been paying £210 - £250 per tonne.

So with a consumption of 26,000 tonnes per annum and a price between 210 - 250 £/tonne that means that the coal supply industry to heritage railways in the UK is worth anywhere between £5.4m and 6.5m annually. That is not enough to justify its own supply chain form abroad.

 

[Titfield]

I think the report says £185 per tonne which just makes matters slightly worse.

Lets hope there is a solution out there but my fear is that an increased cost per tonne will "force" some railways to reduce their steam running days ie consumption which may force the price higher still and thus a cycle is established.

 

[etr221]

Something that has come to my attention, in the Rail Business Daily news feed: Heritage rail begins the search for the world’s best coal .

With the end in sight for UK coal for UK steam, heritage railways turn their sights overseas for continued supplies of coal.

The UK’s heritage railways have been forced to accept that the battle for continued domestic coal supplies is lost. Stocks from now-closed mines will soon be exhausted. The last mine producing steam coal is scheduled to close.

The Heritage Railway Association (HRA) says in spite of government support for the continued burning of coal by heritage steam operators, policy elsewhere is acting decisively against the opening of new mines. That means UK-produced coal for the nation’s much loved steam railways will run out in early 2022.

 

[Taunton]

Household coal banned from sale after today in England, as described here :

Wood burners: Sale of coal and wet wood restricted in England - BBC News

Curbs on the sale of house coal and wet wood for household burning in England have come into force under new rules aimed at cutting air pollution.
People will still be able to use stoves and open fires but they will need to burn cleaner alternatives.

How long before they turn their eyes on steam railways.

 

[Titfield]

IMHO they will not ban it for heritage rail use (the House of Commons report says as much) however I believe that Heritage Railways will have to demonstrate that they are taking a range of mitigation measures to offset the effects.

Again imho heritage railways should start investigating measures they can take now (for example provable systems of ensuring efficient burning of coal, driver and fireman training, emission offsetting) thus having some control of the process rather than having their future hijacked by vociferous activists.

 

[MP33]

When leaded petrol was withdrawn, a small percentage could still be sold. This was for high perfomance and vintage cars that could not be converted to unleaded.

 

[Cowley]

When leaded petrol was withdrawn, a small percentage could still be sold. This was for high perfomance and vintage cars that could not be converted to unleaded.

I drove an old Bay Window VW T2 at the time and when the changeover happened it didn’t take long before it was impossible to buy four star anywhere near me from what I remember.
On my van the choice was to retard the timing slightly or replace the heads with ones that had strengthened valve guides (I think).
Hopefully the situation with coal will be different as there isn’t a an easy way around the problem.

 

[Iliketrains123]

Sorry for sounding ignorant. Could alternative (more environmentally friendly) fuels be used to the same effect?

 

[Roast Veg]

Sorry for sounding ignorant. Could alternative (more environmentally friendly) fuels be used to the same effect?

Only if they have the same or very similar combustion properties. I don't know of any such alternative, but material science could come through...

 

[M7R]

I drove an old Bay Window VW T2 at the time and when the changeover happened it didn’t take long before it was impossible to buy four star anywhere near me from what I remember.
On my van the choice was to retard the timing slightly or replace the heads with ones that had strengthened valve guides (I think).
Hopefully the situation with coal will be different as there isn’t a an easy way around the problem.

It would have been the valve seats, the lead helped protect them as we had the same issue in the classics mini world. (I ran an additive in mine to try and replace the lead seemed to sort of work but the best fix for earlier cars was new hardened valve seats to be fitted)

 

[superjohn]

Hopefully the situation with coal will be different as there isn’t a an easy way around the problem.

Coal storage is much simpler than petrol which should help matters. If lines can order a full lorry load at a time (I suspect most already do) it should still be viable. The practicalities of storing and dispensing leaded petrol for the tiny remaining demand is what killed it off in the end.

 

[Mike Machin]

In the short-term, I’m sure that coal sourced from abroad will continue to be available for heritage use, including steam traction on preserved railways.

However, as time goes on, the whole concept of the burning of coal will be seen as socially irresponsible and will probably become a deterrent and obstacle to many members of the public when considering a visit to a heritage railway.

The steam movement must use the next ten or so years to evaluate alternative forms of fuel and begin a rapid programme of conversion. The Grand Canyon Railway in Arizona have successfully converted their two steam locomotives to run on recycled cooking oil, a source of power which is both sustainable and hugely less damaging to the environment. But we need to start NOW, and to carry on restoring (or even building new!), locomotives to run on coal is just burying our heads in the sand.

Conversion of locomotives to operate on sustainable and less polluting fuel could generate a good deal of favourable media coverage, and promote a positive attitude to the wider public.

If we continue to rely on smoky, anti-social highly-polluting fossil fuels there is every chance that steam-operated railways become stigmatised as just ‘selfish old people playing trains’ with a very negative perception.

There will still be a role for coal within heritage railways, but perhaps just a large pile of the stuff as part of an interpretive display, and perhaps with the occasional small tank locomotive on display in light steam to show visitors as a living reminder of the distant past.

We must embrace new ideas and look forward to ensure that the past has a future.

 

[paul1609]

In the short-term, I’m sure that coal sourced from abroad will continue to be available for heritage use, including steam traction on preserved railways.

However, as time goes on, the whole concept of the burning of coal will be seen as socially irresponsible and will probably become a deterrent and obstacle to many members of the public when considering a visit to a heritage railway.

The steam movement must use the next ten or so years to evaluate alternative forms of fuel and begin a rapid programme of conversion. The Grand Canyon Railway in Arizona have successfully converted their two steam locomotives to run on recycled cooking oil, a source of power which is both sustainable and hugely less damaging to the environment. But we need to start NOW, and to carry on restoring (or even building new!), locomotives to run on coal is just burying our heads in the sand.

Conversion of locomotives to operate on sustainable and less polluting fuel could generate a good deal of favourable media coverage, and promote a positive attitude to the wider public.

If we continue to rely on smoky, anti-social highly-polluting fossil fuels there is every chance that steam-operated railways become stigmatised as just ‘selfish old people playing trains’ with a very negative perception.

There will still be a role for coal within heritage railways, but perhaps just a large pile of the stuff as part of an interpretive display, and perhaps with the occasional small tank locomotive on display in light steam to show visitors as a living reminder of the distant past.

We must embrace new ideas and look forward to ensure that the past has a future.

This issue has been under consideration by the heritage railways association, member railways and government for at least 10 years now. There are some railways that are burning alternative fuels now but those discovered have limited application.
The Grand Central in Arizona that you quote only operate 16 steam "hauled" trains a year. You will notice in their publicity photo there's a large modern diesel engine behind the chip fryer, I wonder what thats for? https://www.xanterra.com/stories/family/recycled-waste-vegetable-oil-powers-historic-steam-train/

 

[ABB125]

The steam movement must use the next ten or so years to evaluate alternative forms of fuel and begin a rapid programme of conversion. The Grand Canyon Railway in Arizona have successfully converted their two steam locomotives to run on recycled cooking oil, a source of power which is both sustainable and hugely less damaging to the environment. But we need to start NOW, and to carry on restoring (or even building new!), locomotives to run on coal is just burying our heads in the sand.

I'm not sure I'd describe cooking oil as "sustainable" myself!

 

[43096]

The Grand Central in Arizona that you quote only operate 16 steam "hauled" trains a year. You will notice in their publicity photo there's a large modern diesel engine behind the chip fryer, I wonder what thats for? https://www.xanterra.com/stories/family/recycled-waste-vegetable-oil-powers-historic-steam-train/

Looks like one of their F40PH EMD locos. Is late 1970s built modern? I assume it is there to provide HEP (Head End Power) as the coaches look like they're air conditioned.

 

[Richard Scott]

Think this probably needs to be applied to diesel traction long term but, again, vegetable oil is an alternative. We'll all have to go to chip shop more frequently!

 

[Iliketrains123]

I'm not sure I'd describe cooking oil as "sustainable" myself!

Why not? I can be grown and America has a huge surplus of it.

 

[ABB125]

Why not? I can be grown and America has a huge surplus of it.

It uses large amounts of land, and in some places it can result in deforestation in order to plant the plants which get converted into oil.

By all means use waste oil though.

 

[Spartacus]

There’s now starting to be serious concerns about the use of cooking oil, demand has outstripped ‘natural’ supply. https://www.euronews.com/living/202...-oil-is-fuelling-deforestation-says-new-study

I read in Steam Railway a couple of years ago of the experiments with alternative fuels, and so far there’s few that are showing signs of being real alternatives, either being too costly, having serious maintenance repercussions, having a much lower energy content or inferior computation properties. I can’t remember what was coming out in the lead, but it seemed that while it might be suitable for smaller, less demanding preserved lines with lighter trains, it wouldn’t be suitable for ones at the other end of the scale, let alone main line charters.

Looks like one of their F40PH EMD locos. Is late 1970s built modern? I assume it is there to provide HEP (Head End Power) as the coaches look like they're air conditioned.

Yeah, that’s right, though before conversion it was a 100% diesel railway, as the steam locos burnt diesel, at almost 3x the rate of the Alco diesel electrics.

 

[reddragon]

There are high calorific value wood briquettes at a similar cost per ton to coal, so its not impossible to achieve.

You simply need to determine which type suits steam locos best.

The biggest issue is that they must be kept dry!

 

[IanXC]

In the post war era there was a government scheme to run 1200 steam locomotives on oil, following on from GWR research and testing, which was reported to have significant operational benefits in GWR testing.

I recall a good number of years ago talk of converting a large GWR locomotive back to oil power, although I forget which railway this was connected with. Does anyone know whether this took place, how successful or otherwise it was, and how the emissions of an oil powered steam locomotive compare with the same locomotive coal powered?

 

[Cowley]

In the post war era there was a government scheme to run 1200 steam locomotives on oil, following on from GWR research and testing, which was reported to have significant operational benefits in GWR testing.

I recall a good number of years ago talk of converting a large GWR locomotive back to oil power, although I forget which railway this was connected with. Does anyone know whether this took place, how successful or otherwise it was, and how the emissions of an oil powered steam locomotive compare with the same locomotive coal powered?

I’m pretty sure it didn’t take place in the end, at least not with any large locos anyway.
I guess with the price of oil creeping up over the years maybe the returns wouldn’t have been worth the investment?

 

[Crewe Exile]

In the short-term, I’m sure that coal sourced from abroad will continue to be available for heritage use, including steam traction on preserved railways.

However, as time goes on, the whole concept of the burning of coal will be seen as socially irresponsible and will probably become a deterrent and obstacle to many members of the public when considering a visit to a heritage railway.

The steam movement must use the next ten or so years to evaluate alternative forms of fuel and begin a rapid programme of conversion. The Grand Canyon Railway in Arizona have successfully converted their two steam locomotives to run on recycled cooking oil, a source of power which is both sustainable and hugely less damaging to the environment. But we need to start NOW, and to carry on restoring (or even building new!), locomotives to run on coal is just burying our heads in the sand.

Conversion of locomotives to operate on sustainable and less polluting fuel could generate a good deal of favourable media coverage, and promote a positive attitude to the wider public.

If we continue to rely on smoky, anti-social highly-polluting fossil fuels there is every chance that steam-operated railways become stigmatised as just ‘selfish old people playing trains’ with a very negative perception.

There will still be a role for coal within heritage railways, but perhaps just a large pile of the stuff as part of an interpretive display, and perhaps with the occasional small tank locomotive on display in light steam to show visitors as a living reminder of the distant past.

We must embrace new ideas and look forward to ensure that the past has a future.

There needs to be a sense of proportion though - how many steam engines are used daily? Even in Peak summer it’s a tiny amount. Restricting coal burning steam engine use would be pedantic and another example of the increasing trend of tokenism. If we are at the stage where we are looking to restrict steam engines then I take it other ‘polluting’ things like aeroplane useage will need to be banned?, the use of lorries?, manufacturing industry?.
Whilst appreciating the climate needs to be respected, it now seems it’s a ‘go to’ issue to restrict/ban anything.

 

[david1212]

There needs to be a sense of proportion though - how many steam engines are used daily? Even in Peak summer it’s a tiny amount. Restricting coal burning steam engine use would be pedantic and another example of the increasing trend of tokenism. If we are at the stage where we are looking to restrict steam engines then I take it other ‘polluting’ things like aeroplane useage will need to be banned?, the use of lorries?, manufacturing industry?.
Whilst appreciating the climate needs to be respected, it now seems it’s a ‘go to’ issue to restrict/ban anything.

Exactly.

Further while for main line work ' the right sort of coal ' is needed for heritage railways restricted to 25mph the type of coal must be less critical so long as in some way it does not create long term problems.

While OT looking ahead pollution from diesel for heritage operation ought to be considered as insignificant too.

 

[Titfield]

While OT looking ahead pollution from diesel for heritage operation ought to be considered as insignificant too.

Whilst the amount of diesel used by heritage railway operation is very small, I would contend that heritage railways should seek to mitigate the effects of such use as much as they are able.

Lets not forget that consumer marketing increasingly features the "green credentials" of the organisation seeking their custom / patronage. Furthermore a condition of being eligible for grant funding or other support from awarding bodies may well include "carbon neutral" operation going forward.