Bomb squad called after over 1,000 railway detonators found underwater

[Strat-tastic]

There’s some photos on this forum

Thanks. A different type I see, which makes sense now I see them deployed.

 

[Gloster]

Most of the detonator-placers I remember had two dets mounted next to each other on a small plate. This gave a louder bang and also reduced the risk of there being no bang because water had got into the det. Signalboxes only tended to use the lever-worked ones in a serious emergency, so it was important that they worked.

 

[Annetts key]

I hope this isn't a stupid question. Are detonators still used?

Yes, either as part of protection arrangements, or in an emergency situation.

The railway rule book still includes various instructions about using them.

The date of manufacture is stamped on its casting. Detonators more than five years old should not be used. Also if it is damaged or showing signs of rust it should not be used.

If being used at a signal, the first one should be placed next to the signal, then the other two are placed beyond the signal, each 20 metres (yards) apart.

When detonators are used away from a signal and you are staying on site, you must stand at least 30 metres (30 yards) beyond the detonators so that the train driver will see your handsignal after exploding the detonators.

Lookouts and site wardens are required to carry them as part of their equipment.

 

[furnessvale]

That sounds like an absolute classic 'story to scare the trainees into doing it properly'.

I believe the internals of a detonator include a perforated steel disc. In the correct circumstances this can fly out sideways.

Not for nothing were fogmen placed in a concrete hut with its entrance turned away from the running lines.

My first job had varied duties, one of which was collecting out of date detonators from signal boxes and taking them to the area managers office for disposal. I often wondered if I'd broken some bylaw or other taking them on the bus into town

Years ago during the IRA troubles I was working in Lodon and I borrowed a stout cardboard box from work to take some personal gear home. Even in the rush hour on the central line I had a surprising amount of space to myself.

The box was clearly labelled "I.C.I. Gelegnite".

 

[TheEdge]

Virtually all detonator placers at mechanical signalboxes were removed by Railtrack in the 1990s. I think the very few that are left are protecting things like swing bridges. Banbury North and South boxes were the last ones I know of.

I know Somerleyton Swing Bridge and maybe Reedham had detonator placers right up until the semaphores came out a couple of years ago.

 

[TPO]

I shamelessly plagiarise David L Smith's incomparable books about life on the Glasgow & South Western Railway more than 100 years ago. An inspector had come out from headquarters to a remote location. In those days detonators were known as 'fog signals'.

"Where are your fog signals?"
"Oh, they'll have some in the stores at Stranraer".
"What? Do you not actually use them?".
"Oh, aye, aye. If there's anyone getting married or emigrating to Australia we'll put down a few ...".

Officially they are still called "railway fog signals" by the manufacturer.

TPO

 

[Dunnideer]

I was told during my training always to refer to dets as ‘fog signals’ if the police ever stop you in a railway motor, if they search it and ask about them. This was an issue for a couple of years because Network Rail was displaying explosive hazard warning diamonds on the vans until the Department for Transport told them not to because they’re not required for the very limited quantities we carry. Anyway the diamonds sometimes attracted the attention of bored traffic police (especially at night) who wanted to know what explosives were being transported and whether you had a license for them. Actual ‘detonators’ for use with explosives are a very different beast and do have licensing and transport requirements whereas railway fog signals in small numbers don’t.

 

[Annetts key]

I was told during my training always to refer to dets as ‘fog signals’ if the police ever stop you in a railway motor, if they search it and ask about them. This was an issue for a couple of years because Network Rail was displaying explosive hazard warning diamonds on the vans until the Department for Transport told them not to because they’re not required for the very limited quantities we carry. Anyway the diamonds sometimes attracted the attention of bored traffic police (especially at night) who wanted to know what explosives were being transported and whether you had a license for them. Actual ‘detonators’ for use with explosives are a very different beast and do have licensing and transport requirements whereas railway fog signals in small numbers don’t.

The police in your area must get very bored or have strange ideas. In all the encounters that I know of in my area, unless they see you committing a road traffic offence (running a red traffic light or speeding, and no it was not me driving), they are not the least bit interested in you, if they can see that you are ‘on duty’ in a marked railway road vehicle (van). By marked, I mean with the railway company name/logo clearly displayed.

It may be different for a contractor if in a unmarked road vehicle. The police definitely take more interest in these vehicles.

 

[Dunnideer]

It was specifically the explosives hazard warning diamond they were interested in and eventually the signs were removed from the vans on the advice of the DfT. Maybe it was just a local problem but I remember distinctly being told not to say the word ‘detonators’ to the police because they might get the wrong end of the stick. These days dets are just carried in the usual anonymous red metal lock box with no hazard diamond. You are not allowed to transport dets in a loose container, it has to be fixed to the vehicle (I don’t know if that’s the law or just a NR Company Standard).

I’ve never been stopped in a railway motor though I know the local S&T and another localish MOM did get stopped and questioned a couple of times in liveried NR vans in the early days of the first lockdown when there were very few other vehicles about. A few signallers too but they were in private cars so a bit more understandable.

 

[Annetts key]

It was specifically the explosives hazard warning diamond they were interested in and eventually the signs were removed from the vans on the advice of the DfT. Maybe it was just a local problem but I remember distinctly being told not to say the word ‘detonators’ to the police because they might get the wrong end of the stick. These days dets are just carried in the usual anonymous red metal lock box with no hazard diamond. You are not allowed to transport dets in a loose container, it has to be fixed to the vehicle (I don’t know if that’s the law or just a NR Company Standard).

I’ve never been stopped in a railway motor though I know the local S&T and another localish MOM did get stopped and questioned a couple of times in liveried NR vans in the early days of the first lockdown when there were very few other vehicles about. A few signallers too but they were in private cars so a bit more understandable.

Yeah, some of the Network Rail vans in our area did have those hazard warning diamond signs for a while. And yes, detonators are supposed to be kept in the red metal box that is fitted to the vans.

It definitely appears to be the police in your area. We had no trouble from the police during any of the lockdowns. Although all ‘key workers’ were issued with an official letter to be carried, so it could be produced if needed.

 

[Dunnideer]

Yeah we had the generic NR letter and a personalised one from our Ops Manager too.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

I've just finished reading "Caerphilly Works" by E R Mountford.

It contains a number of references to detonators being used to mark special events, often to mark the retirement of long serving staff.

The most notable, however, was the departure of the last Works train between Caerphilly and Newport on 28th June 1964. It was hauled by GWR 0-6-0PT No. 9480 and had to pass over a very large number of detonators which had been laid along the internal line to the West Gate, but also beyond the Goods Yard to the junction with the main line near Caerphilly Station. There were so many that, because the rails were very wet, the engine slipped very badly and there were concerns that it wouldn't get out of the yard!

From the description, no-one could have been in any doubt what was happening.

 

[Gloster]

There was a head-on collision near Fishguard in 1951 when the fact that detonators had been placed on the track to send-off a couple of newly-weds was a contributory factor. (“And how did you spend your wedding night?”) It is on Railways Archive, but I can’t do a link.

 

[Dave W]

This is the one Gloster: https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Fishguard1951.pdf

Final paragraph from Brigadier Langley:

Apparently the practice of blowing whistles and exploding detonators at a wedding party "send-off" is a long standing custom, not confined to Fishguard and Goodwick Station. Everyone would wish to show goodwill on such occasions but detonators are expressly supplied to stop or warn trains in emergency and not to speed them on their way; instructions have now been issued to prohibit the light-hearted abuse of these valuable safeguards.

I'm also reminded of Jack Warland's rather similar tale of finding some out of date detonators in the corner of a booking office, and using them on New Year's Eve, the result of which was so violent it threw the wagon used off the rails...

 

[contrex]

How odd, I was just watching an episode of The Bill in which Tony Stamp deals with some youths mucking about with some railway detonators and a 6 year old girl ends up in hospital.

Also trying to work out what station he went to to discuss with BTP, would imagine it was Wimbledon owing to where they filmed the show.

(search The Bill Fireworks on Youtube if you want to see it)

They also filmed an episode ("Chicken", aired Feb 11 1992, I now know) on the Wimbledon and Sutton line (which was closed at the time) in which a school class of unruly teenagers were given a safety talk about trespassing on the railway (which they ignored, shouting and yelling and chucking things about the classroom) and then a group of them decided to do what they had been told not to do, and while they were on the line, one shouted 'a train's coming!'. Off they all ran, but one gets hit by the DEMU. Cue appearance of cops, who join the driver at the back of the now halted train, where, it seems, the remains of the kid were supposed to be. Driver looks and throws up. June Ackland and a young cop (PC Barry Stringer, I think) had appeared before and he saw a shopping trolley on the juice rail. He wanted to remove it but June said 'You'll be Kentucky fried if you touch that!'. So lots of little safety bits and pieces. Stringer is in the brake of the DEMU a whole lot of commuters arrive walking in the cess, having detrained themselves from a halted train up the line. One posh geezer angrily asks 'What's going on! Why is my train stopped?'. He has one foot on the juice rail and the young cop promptly arrests him for trespass.

Episode here -

It's traditional in France to honour a retiring cheminot by placing lots of dets on the track at one location for him or her to set off at the end of their last run. Some videos are on the La Vie du Rail web site I think.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

In the days of coal stoves it was said that the way to clear the stovepipe was to chuck a det in the fire. Or you could annoy someone you didn’t like by dropping a det down the pipe without them knowing.

I recall a very senior railwayman "learning" a box "somewhere in the West Yorkshire" where the resident signalman attempted a dynamic clear of the stove pipe by such a measure. So they did it ,and retired outside to a safe distance Unfortunately , it took a few mins to warm up and explode - there were some repeated block bells which unnerved them - (and they worried about delaying traffic etc) - said det did eventually explode with a mini nuclear cloud of soot over the immediate area. Took a bit of cleaning up I understand. A very nasty trick , and it may be anecdotal of someone sticking a det into a very hot brakevan stove.......

Certainly - expired dets were sent in sealed metal boxes to a regional depot for "disposal" - when enough were amassed at say Wimbledon , they were sent to a Royal Ordenance depot for safe disposal. Often by rail in a VEA wagon.

Only ever put them down once - and to celebrate the departure of the 140th Anniversary on the Abbey line - we had the Mayor on board and they were carefully placed well clear of the platform and everyone advised. Pretty impressive when you run over a dozen or so (and yes - they were in date) - it was a 321 . which was specially worked through to Euston , which had to have the points clipped and a hand signaller in place at Watford Junction.

Re the Fishguard collision - the great Gerry Fiennes said it was unfortunate - but a salutory point he made was that all very well to enjoy yourself , but "someone" had to be mindful of safety in such circumstances.

 

[Acey]

The one and only time that I had to use dets in anger was on an extremely cold and snowy night ( not sure what year ,maybe1993) on an evening commuter train from Charing Cross to Dartford via Bexletheath it was pretty bad and as I left Blackheath around 20 00 it was all I could do to keep the 6 car 465 units moving ,it was arcing and sparking all over the place and finally gave up midway between Blackheath and Kidbrook,after numerous attempts to get moving I finally gave up, the Signalman and I decided that I would set back to Blackheath and have another run at it ,as the train had partly cleared some snow,well that didn't work,so the Signalman ,in his nice warm box ,suggested as there was another train stuck at Kidbrook maybe the Kidbrook one could roll back to me join the two 6 cars and maybe the combined traction and shoe-gear may enable us to get moving ,so he advised the other Driver to roll down to where my train was stuck and to couple up ,by now it was about 22.30 and still snowing ,well I thought sod this,visibility poor ,freezing cold and all this time trying to appease loads of angry commuters ( sorry,customers ) So down went the dets by the signal and I stood there watching with dismay the still falling snow covering them ,well eventually after what seemed ages I saw the lights of the other train finally approaching,only thing was I couldn't find two of the three dets so the residents backing on to the embankment were treated to a double detonation ,we could see myriad lights suddenly appearing at windows ! Well to cut a long story short, that idea didn't work either so we took the whole 12 car back to Blackheath,arranged Taxis for some of the folk,argued with the rest of them and diverted the train to Dartford via Greenwich ( terminated at Slade Green at about midnight ) no trains running and I finally got home to Bromley about 02.30 by a scary Taxi ride on frozen deserted streets .The somewhat ironic thing was that my rostered duty was night depot shunt-driver and as I didn't want the night -shift I swapped for the duty that was supposed to finish at around 22.30 and guess what ? the driver with whom I swapped had sat around in the messroom as too much snow and a disrupted service meant no units were moved ,the law of sod ! pic is my car stuck at the depot

 

[Busaholic]

The one and only time that I had to use dets in anger was on an extremely cold and snowy night ( not sure what year ,maybe1993) on an evening commuter train from Charing Cross to Dartford via Bexletheath it was pretty bad and as I left Blackheath around 20 00 it was all I could do to keep the 6 car 465 units moving ,it was arcing and sparking all over the place and finally gave up midway between Blackheath and Kidbrook,after numerous attempts to get moving I finally gave up and the Signalman I decided I would set back to Blackheath and have another run at it ,as the train had partly cleared some snow,well that didn't work,so the Signalman ,in his nice warm box suggested as there was another train stuck at Kidbrook maybe the Kidbrook one could roll back to me join the two 6 cars and maybe the combined traction and shoe-gear may enable us to get moving ,so he advised the other Driver to roll down to where my train was stuck and to couple up ,by now it was about 22.30 and still snowing ,well I thought sod this,visibility poor ,freezing cold and all this time trying to appease loads of angry commuters ( sorry,customers ) So down went the dets by the signal and I stood there watching with dismay the still falling snow covering them ,well eventually after what seemed ages I saw the lights of the other train finally approaching,only thing was I couldn't find two of the three dets so the residents backing on to the embankment were treated to a double detonation ,we could see myriad lights suddenly appearing at windows ! Well to cut a long story short, that idea didn't work either so we took the whole 12 car back to Blackheath,arranged Taxis for some of the folk,argued with the rest of them and diverted the train to Dartford via Greenwich ( terminated at Slade Green at about midnight ) no trains running and I finally got home to Bromley about 02.30 by a scary Taxi ride on frozen deserted streets .The somewhat ironic thing was that my rostered duty was night depot shunt-driver and as I didn't want the night -shift I swapped for the duty that was supposed to finish at around 22.30 and guess what ? the driver with whom I swapped had sat around in the messroom as too much snow and a disrupted service meant no units were moved ,the law of sod ! pic is my car stuck at the depot

Nice story, thank you. Had left Blackheath by 1993 but was a regular late evening traveller just prior to that, and grew up near Eltham Park station.

 

[QueensCurve]

Yes

I haven't been on a train that detaonated one since the early 1980s. I don't know why it was placed, but it was on the "A" line on the way into Euston.

 

[jnjkerbin]

Wasn’t there a case in the last few years in the UK or Ireland of a driver being slightly injured after he put down his bag and some dets in it went off? Or am I getting muddled?

I was always careful with them as I was told a story, which I think was true ((not a railwaymen’s tall tale), about a chap who had been killed some time before (which on the railway could be decades). He was putting down dets on the rail and stood too close to them: when one exploded a small piece of casing sliced through his jugular.

Here's a link to the RAIU's report on the driver that was injured by some detonators in 2012, for anyone interested

https://www.raiu.ie/assets/files/pdf/raiur003a_fog_signal_activation_bray.pdf

 

[AndrewE]

I believe the internals of a detonator include a perforated steel disc. In the correct circumstances this can fly out sideways.

Not for nothing were fogmen placed in a concrete hut with its entrance turned away from the running lines.

They really shouldn't. The perforated tinplate disc goes over a ring-shaped malleable iron anvil (which has 5 pimples sticking up through the holes in the disc) and it keeps the anvil centred in the det. the percussion caps sit on the tops of the pimples and when the det is run over the top bit of the tinplate case (not casting) is squashed - quickly - down onto the anvil which both sets off the first cap and pinches the disc and the anvil (and the top and bottom parts of the det case) between the rail and the wheel. The detonation of the cap sets off the gunpowder inside the tin can and bursts open its front with a hell of a bang. There is enough force to be heard in the cab, transmitted through the frames and body of a diesel loco at speed, it was described to me as sounding as though the control desk was being hit with a heavy metal ruler.

 

[alxndr]

These days dets are just carried in the usual anonymous red metal lock box with no hazard diamond. You are not allowed to transport dets in a loose container, it has to be fixed to the vehicle (I don’t know if that’s the law or just a NR Company Standard).

The recent vans we've had have come with the warning diamond already on the red det box bolted to the bulkhead.

 

[Dunnideer]

The recent vans we've had have come with the warning diamond already on the red det box bolted to the bulkhead.

We got 2 new vans in December but no hazard diamonds, just plain red boxes. Good old NR standardisation lol

 

[alxndr]

We got 2 new vans in December but no hazard diamonds, just plain red boxes. Good old NR standardisation lol

We’re getting another next week, I’m curious to see what’s in that now!

 

[pitdiver]

When "Steam on The Met" was operating the last departure from Amersham on the last day of operation each year was accompanied by a fusillade of "Fog Signals".

 

[philthetube]

Do drivers always carry dets or are they sometimes stored in cabs?

 

[43066]

Do drivers always carry dets or are they sometimes stored in cabs?

They’re always stored in the cabs.

Standard preps involve checking dets are present and in-date. Standard procedure isn’t to chuck then into the nearest lake if they’ve expired, though.

 

[2HAP]

It's amazing what you can find in a charity shop!

Railway detonator found in Morecambe charity shop

British Transport Police say detonators are used as an "emergency warning device" on the railways.

www.bbc.co.uk

An explosive device used on the railways has been handed in at a police station after it was found at a charity shop.
The detonator - often used as an emergency warning device to warn maintenance workers of approaching trains - somehow ended up at a store in Morecambe, Lancashire.

 

[Neo9320]

It's amazing what you can find in a charity shop!

Railway detonator found in Morecambe charity shop

British Transport Police say detonators are used as an "emergency warning device" on the railways.

www.bbc.co.uk

They’ll take anything these days…

 

[Gloster]

Another magnet fisherman (or fisherperson) has pulled 52 dets out of the Grand Union Canal in Northampton today.