Boris to resign? (Speculation) And who should replace him?

[Swanny200]

Now there’s a pair of words you don’t often see in the same sentence. The big difference between Patel and the likes of Hancock and Williamson is that those two are merely inept, she’s inept and evil

I would argue that she is not inept, she is just very calculated and makes those choices on her very evil calculations

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I would argue that she is not inept, she is just very calculated and makes those choices on her very evil calculations

'Evil' is pretty strong. I don't particularly like a lot of what Priti Patel has done, but I certainly wouldn't describe her as 'evil'. 'Evil' would be more along the lines of Kim Jong Un or the former leaders of IS - and basically no-one in the British Government remotely compares to that. Priti Patel clearly has strong beliefs and has proven determined to push those beliefs through, even apparently to the point of treating her own staff badly on occasions. But that's not evil - that's resolute, determined, mabye a bit lacking in people-skills, or a bit selfish, and holding political views that you and I would at least somewhat disagree with.

 

[najaB]

'Evil' is pretty strong. I don't particularly like a lot of what Priti Patel has done, but I certainly wouldn't describe her as 'evil'.

I agree. She's a horrible person, but she's not truly evil.

 

[hst43102]

I would argue that she is not inept, she is just very calculated and makes those choices on her very evil calculations

Perhaps "cunning" would be a better word than evil?

 

[najaB]

Perhaps "cunning" would be a better word than evil?

cunning: having or showing skill in achieving one's ends by deceit or evasion.

Nah, doesn't go far enough in capturing the malign intent behind her actions.

 

[21C101]

On Topic, I did wonder if he would go after Brexit was sorted when he was clearly struggling with post covid last year.

I think not a cats chance now and pushing Blyth and Tyne reopening to top of the pile shows they are already planning for the 2024 election.

 

[brad465]

A political vlogger I subscribe to said this morning that Patel's act of saying borders should have been closed in March, and the leaked policy of a £500 isolation payment from Hancock's department, are evidence that the cabinet are trying to distance themselves from Johnson and some of his actions. This is perhaps a sign of a leadership challenge coming up, where they want to stay on in cabinet and/or be the next Prime Minister, which means they'd have to avoid being criticised for associating with Johnson too much and say that they had policies that would help but were ignored/overridden.

This certainly suggests they're not afraid of a reshuffle as trying to distance from the PM is the last thing a cabinet member would do if they want to stay on.

 

[Swanny200]

I agree. She's a horrible person, but she's not truly evil.

It is personal opinion, I suppose, the fact that she does not give a flying fig in regards to people who are in the same situation now as her own parents were in many years ago, I grew up in the 80's and early 90's and remember the abuse thrown at other races and colours even by the entertainment industry, she may not be as direct and to the point as the comedians were but her decisions since becoming Home Secretary are just as bad, putting immigrants on ships in the middle of the channel for instance, add in the fact that with her stance towards being friends with Israel she lost her previous job over it, her opinions on Palestine, her bullying of her staff, the fact that she wishes to emulate and surpass her hero Maggie Thatcher makes her evil in my book and more of a threat to the country than Corbyn was.

It should be a great thing to shout about, akin to what is happening across the water right now, the first of Asian origin to become PM, the first person of colour to become PM, but Patel should not be deserving of any position in parliament let alone PM.

 

[Bald Rick]

'Evil' is pretty strong. I don't particularly like a lot of what Priti Patel has done, but I certainly wouldn't describe her as 'evil'. 'Evil' would be more along the lines of Kim Jong Un or the former leaders of IS - and basically no-one in the British Government remotely compares to that. Priti Patel clearly has strong beliefs and has proven determined to push those beliefs through, even apparently to the point of treating her own staff badly on occasions. But that's not evil - that's resolute, determined, mabye a bit lacking in people-skills, or a bit selfish, and holding political views that you and I would at least somewhat disagree with.

Good post.

I’ve met her (many years ago), and she was certainly forceful, opinionated, confident (supremely), and important (of the self variety). She is also extremely sharp and clever, as are most cabinet level politicians - certainly all of those I’ve met. Albeit note there is a distinction between clever and intelligent.

None of which makes her ‘evil’.

I happen to disagree with many if not all of her opinions, but there’s no doubt she is trying to do what she thinks is ‘right’.

 

[317 forever]

I think the last election produced some unusual results as a result of Brexit. If current polls that have Labour and the Tories practically even are to be believed, the next election will look more like the 2017 election than the 2019 one.

Yes it did. There are Leave areas that voted Labour in 1983 but Conservative in 2019 such as Wakefield and Wrexham. Conversely, some Remain areas from 1997 are still Labour such as Exeter, or even switched to Labour in 2017 such as Reading East.

It’s worth pointing out that the seat (it’s in the area where I live) is not just Uxbridge, but also South Ruislip, Ruislip Manor, a small part of Ruislip, Cowley, Hillingdon, and Yiewsley [the latter two moving toward the poorer southern part of the Borough of Hillingdon which has John McDonnell as its MP]. I’m not going to pretend it’s a diverse seat because it isn’t (compared to places like Tower Hamlets), but it is definitely changing demographically and I could certainly see it swing in the not too distant future; especially if an election is in university term time! Also worth mentioning the border review recommended adding part of Ealing (two Northolt wards) which are also very Labour, whilst taking away some more Conservative areas.

So, Boris might end up approving boundary changes that cost him his seat.

 

[Typhoon]

It should be a great thing to shout about, akin to what is happening across the water right now, the first of Asian origin to become PM, the first person of colour to become PM, but Patel should not be deserving of any position in parliament let alone PM.

One of my main concerns is that I suspect Priti Patel has not changed her views on the death penalty in any significant way since she aired them on Question Time in 2011 and she would use its reintroduction (possibly via a referendum) as a vote gaining mechanism. I hope I am wrong but in seeking out a clip of the programme I came across

There was a flutter of interest on Christmas Day when, in festive mood, the Society of Black and Asian Lawyers tweeted the following:
“A little bird at the @ukhomeoffice tells us @pritipatel has asked Civil Service to scope a policy paper on the restoration of the death penalty in the #NewYear2021 and the #Tories have the majority to do just that.”

Now this is only hearsay evidence but concerning none the less. Unfortunately, I think there are people who would vote for its return, maybe not enough to get through but enough to help a Patel led government get into power.
The quote is from https://barristerblogger.com/2020/12/29/how-could-priti-patel-reintroduce-the-death-penalty/. If you wish to see Ian Hislop destroy Priti Patel's argument. try https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DrsVhzbLzU . Longer clips are available.

 

[najaB]

Now this is only hearsay evidence but concerning none the less. Unfortunately, I think there are people who would vote for its return, maybe not enough to get through but enough to help a Patel led government get into power.

I suspect that even attempting it won't be possible while we're still in the Council of Europe. If the government is proposing that then I'm leaving.

 

[brad465]

One of my main concerns is that I suspect Priti Patel has not changed her views on the death penalty in any significant way since she aired them on Question Time in 2011 and she would use its reintroduction (possibly via a referendum) as a vote gaining mechanism. I hope I am wrong but in seeking out a clip of the programme I came across
Now this is only hearsay evidence but concerning none the less. Unfortunately, I think there are people who would vote for its return, maybe not enough to get through but enough to help a Patel led government get into power.
The quote is from https://barristerblogger.com/2020/12/29/how-could-priti-patel-reintroduce-the-death-penalty/. If you wish to see Ian Hislop destroy Priti Patel's argument. try https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DrsVhzbLzU . Longer clips are available.

Yes I remember that airing; if she does try to bring it back it will be an extremely hostile and widely condemned move, I suspect there will be lots of vocal disgust from international leaders in Europe and other major countries which no longer have it, and in a post-Covid restrictions time there will be mass protesting that's quite likely to rival and even exceed anti-Brexit and anti-Iraq marches.

I suspect that even attempting it won't be possible while we're still in the Council of Europe. If the government is proposing that then I'm leaving.

That's of course if Scotland hasn't gained independence by that point and by default decided it's not having the death penalty (unless that's the sort of leaving you mean here).

 

[Typhoon]

I suspect that even attempting it won't be possible while we're still in the Council of Europe. If the government is proposing that then I'm leaving.

Yes I remember that airing; if she does try to bring it back it will be an extremely hostile and widely condemned move, I suspect there will be lots of vocal disgust from international leaders in Europe and other major countries which no longer have it, and in a post-Covid restrictions time there will be mass protesting that's quite likely to rival and even exceed anti-Brexit and anti-Iraq marches.

So it will be those nasty Europeans again. I believe her ambition goes beyond that of Boris, and he was prepared to stab his leader in the back (speaking metaphorically).

Incidentally, I hope the little bird mentioned in my previous post is close to retirement and has got a bolt hole to go to across the Channel (or Irish Sea) as we all know that the Home Secretary doesn't knowingly bully anyone.

 

[najaB]

So it will be those nasty Europeans again.

Those nasty Europeans including Russia! Imagine ceding the moral high ground to Putin.

 

[Bald Rick]

Now this is only hearsay evidence but concerning none the less. Unfortunately, I think there are people who would vote for its return, maybe not enough to get through but enough to help a Patel led government get into power.

Really can’t see how it could be voted in. Too many Tories would revolt, and in a referendum I simply don’t see the population going for it. And yes I did see the population going for Brexit (at 11/1, no less).

We’re not some sort of controlled society like China, or a tinpot nation with no morals like the US.

 

[Busaholic]

Good post.

I’ve met her (many years ago), and she was certainly forceful, opinionated, confident (supremely), and important (of the self variety). She is also extremely sharp and clever, as are most cabinet level politicians - certainly all of those I’ve met. Albeit note there is a distinction between clever and intelligent.

None of which makes her ‘evil’.

I happen to disagree with many if not all of her opinions, but there’s no doubt she is trying to do what she thinks is ‘right’.

I've never met her, but I'd agree with all of that. It oughtn't be forgotten that she was a member of the Referendum Party in her day, and they were the party for anyone who found UKIP too moderate. I'd like to mention at this point that I read an article in the Daily Mail on, I think, the morning before the first English lockdown was announced. Why I'm fairly certain of the timing is that I only ever read the Daily Mail customer copy at Costa Coffee, and I deliberately had a coffee because I suspected lockdown was coming next day. The author was fairly adamant that Matt Hancock had led the call for quarantining, with Patel supporting him, with Rishi Sunak leading in the other corner: other ministers were mentioned, but those were the main participants in the Cabinet 'consultation process', otherwise known as the 'rubber stamp.' The Mail was certainly at the time the mouthpiece of the Government machine.

 

[Bald Rick]

The Mail was certainly at the time the mouthpiece of the Government machine.

The Mail probably gets much of its ‘intel’ from Mr Sarah Vine, however the Telegraph has a good way into No10 through its former correspondent...

 

[Typhoon]

Really can’t see how it could be voted in. Too many Tories would revolt, and in a referendum I simply don’t see the population going for it. And yes I did see the population going for Brexit (at 11/1, no less).

We’re not some sort of controlled society like China, or a tinpot nation with no morals like the US.

Italicised part - I would hope so but our PM saw off the Remainers easily enough. I seriously hope it wouldn't come to that, that the Tories would see her off with single figures voting for her but she is very popular with party members I am told (they are presumably easy to please). My point is that a referendum would be in the manifesto, voters who would otherwise adopt 'a plague on both your houses' approach would vote for them - possibly in red wall seats and see her in to no 10.

My fear is largely that I spent my working life in Birmingham, I remember The Mulberry Bush and The Tavern in the Town (I used to catch a bus outside), those men would have been hanged - no doubts! I sincerely hope that people would put every pressure on MPs & voters. I just have a nagging doubt that the 'Law'n'Order' brigade would get out enough 'silent' voters, frightened by the thought of migrants ('we don't know whether they are mass murders in their own country') armed to the teeth invading their neighbourhood. I hope this just stays as my nightmare.

 

[najaB]

I just have a nagging doubt that the 'Law'n'Order' brigade would get out enough 'silent' voters, frightened by the thought of migrants ('we don't know whether they are mass murders in their own country') armed to the teeth invading their neighbourhood. I hope this just stays as my nightmare.

I can't speak for your neck of the woods, but I think you'd struggle to find widespread support for the return of capital punishment north of the border. At least, I've not seen or heard many in favour.

Edit: Thinking about it, if we hadn't managed to settle the independence referendum question by then, that might be enough to trigger one. There's a bit of history of Scots being executed by then English...

 

[SteveM70]

Any campaign against the reintroduction of capital punishment should use the clip of Ian Hislop dismantling Patel’s arguments one by one on QT. “But Ian, we have ultimate burden of proof......”

 

[alex397]

The fact the death penalty is even up for discussion is deeply concerning enough.

I don’t want to be in a country with a government like Saudi Arabia, Iran or Belarus thank you. It would be deeply troubling if the UK headed in this direction, and to be honest I think there would be far too much backlash amongst the population (well amongst the non-ignorant population anyway) for it to actually happen.

The far-right will of course say that none of the woke softy lefty snowflakes will want it because they want to treat murderers etc as royalty. There is too much room for error, it is barbaric, and doesn’t necessarily decrease crime rates.

Ian Hislop sums up why it is an awful idea much better than me. Particularly when he brings up all the people with false murder charges, who would be dead rather than freed when new evidence came to light.

 

[backontrack]

I happen to disagree with many if not all of her opinions, but there’s no doubt she is trying to do what she thinks is ‘right’.

I think there's a little doubt, and that a more nuanced interpretation might be that she is trying to do what she wants, relative her own opinions. Whether she believes it is morally right is for debate. No-one could know that but her.

Maybe, like many other prominent, conservatives, she disregards moralism entirely, and feels that there's a gulf between moral rectitude and "the correct solution". Maybe she feels that it's a leftist trope, being overly moral. In any case, there's two different meanings of "what is right": what is functionally correct, and what is principled. What's pragmatically right, and what's ideologically right?

 

[Typhoon]

More than a half of Leave voters want the death penalty brought back after Brexit, according to a new poll.

Admittedly this is over three years old (30/03/17), and they may now have been put off by our PMs 'world beating' negotiations over leaving the EU but this in itself is of concern (the same YouGov) poll found that 20% of Remain voters thought otherwise). Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...alty-yougov-results-light-bulbs-a7656791.html

I am heartened by the response of posters above, mainly because of the strength of their opposition.

I can't speak for your neck of the woods, but I think you'd struggle to find widespread support for the return of capital punishment north of the border. At least, I've not seen or heard many in favour.

I live in an area largely inhabited by older people and I suspect this makes a difference. Additionally, some of those who would support it are relatives, they are not vocal about it, but I have heard enough to think that they would probably support this - they do not normally vote. I suspect capital punishment is the type of thing that people won't admit to supporting but there are some who might put a cross next to 'Yes' at the Polling Station. Interestingly (for you) I found a map showing people's support for capital punishment via the petition, Scotland was easily the least supportive. My area (south east) was one of the most supportive. And, to be honest. I don't expect the Tories will be expecting more than one or two seats in Scotland.

Any campaign against the reintroduction of capital punishment should use the clip of Ian Hislop dismantling Patel’s arguments one by one on QT. “But Ian, we have ultimate burden of proof......”

Quite right, and look at the way she looks at him while he is doing so. Choose the right clip, though, such as that I gave in #371. Longer clips include some pretty lame contributions by Vince Cable and Harriet Harman, as well as a member of the public who gave as an example the deterrent effect of the cane, where, for many it is a deterrent only because they have had it once! No-one knocked her back about the number of times the Birmingham Six's conviction was deemed safe; no-one asked her what she would say to the wives, children, parents and friends of those unjustly killed. Judging by her previous responses, it might be 'Sorry if you think the courts made an error'.

As far as I can see in her 18 months in office she has achieved nothing (constructive) of note, I have no doubt that she sees herself as a potential leader though. If there was to be another terrorist incident such as the Grande concert or the Westminster Bridge killings, I worry that she will jump on it. I don't trust her an inch. At least I am reasonably confident that Mr Johnson knows that the Death Penalty is a no go area.

Still, I think I have had my say about this, and I am encouraged that so many regard it as unimaginable.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The fact the death penalty is even up for discussion is deeply concerning enough.

I don’t want to be in a country with a government like Saudi Arabia, Iran or Belarus thank you.

I'm struggling to see how you could equate 'restoring the death penalty' with 'a government like Saudi Arabia, Iran or Belarus'.

All three of the countries you have named have huge, huge, problems with widespread human rights abuses, lack of free speech, lack of meaningful democracy, persecution of dissidents, etc. etc. None of those problems are particularly caused by or linked to the presence or absence of the death penalty for serious crimes. If (hypothetically) the death penalty was restored in the UK then - depending on your point of view - you might see that as either a good or a terrible thing. But it would not even remotely make the UK like Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Belarus.

Maybe, try to keep the discussion at least a bit grounded in reality?

 

[najaB]

I'm struggling to see how you could equate 'restoring the death penalty' with 'a government like Saudi Arabia, Iran or Belarus'.

Because reinstatement of capital punishment would be one more thing that we have in common. More importantly, it would be ceding the moral high ground to them, at least a bit.

 

[alex397]

I'm struggling to see how you could equate 'restoring the death penalty' with 'a government like Saudi Arabia, Iran or Belarus' .........
Maybe, try to keep the discussion at least a bit grounded in reality?

I’m not sure why you are struggling to see this. If we reintroduced the death penalty, who knows what other questionable practices or punishments could be proposed or reintroduced. The death penalty isn’t exactly associated with a free country.

And as najaB says above, we certainly wouldn’t be able to take the moral high ground anymore.

 

[Journeyman]

I’m not sure why you are struggling to see this. If we reintroduced the death penalty, who knows what other questionable practices or punishments could be proposed or reintroduced. The death penalty isn’t exactly associated with a free country.

And as najaB says above, we certainly wouldn’t be able to take the moral high ground anymore.

Just about every country that retains the death penalty is guilty of other brutal human rights violations, and has governments that are far from democratic.

For a supposed world-leading liberal democracy, reintroduction of capital punishment should be considered completely beyond the pale.

 

[The Ham]

Just about every country that retains the death penalty is guilty of other brutal human rights violations, and has governments that are far from democratic.

For a supposed world-leading liberal democracy, reintroduction of capital punishment should be considered completely beyond the pale.

Indeed, even much of the USA has softened it's stance on whether there should be there death penalty (other than Trump and the more right wing of his supporters).

 

[najaB]

And as najaB says above, we certainly wouldn’t be able to take the moral high ground anymore.

Especially since we wouldn't be able to use the "historic law that's still on the books" excuse like the US does. We would have abolished captial punishment and actively chosen to reintroduce it.