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Breaking outbound journey before destination - is it valid/legal?

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RobertsN

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Hi all,
I searched this part of the forum but was unable to locate anything specific.

The question is whether it is permissible to break off (and not continue) an outbound journey and whether the return portion will still be valid.

Point in case (All tickets assume Saturday travel - off peak):
I'm at Stratford-upon-Avon (SAV) and with to go to Lapworth (LPW), cycle down the canal and catch a return train to SAV from Leamington Spa (LMS).
If I purchase a one was SAV-LPW and a one way LMS-SAV (which is the actual "real" travel), I pay:
* 10.20 (on some early services 5.20) for the first leg, and,
* 7.30 for the "return" leg

However, on the National Rail journey planner, I can get a day return "off-peak" (SAV-LMS and, THIS IS IMPORTANT, choosing VIA LPW) for 7.40.

The point (sorry for the rambling, just giving sufficient context) is, am I allowed to purchase a SAV-LMS day return, get off at LPW, cycle down and take the return from LMS to SAV? Would getting off at LPW on the outbound invalidate the return portion?
 
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Nottingham59

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That should be possible, for a day return ticket. See the NR conditions of travel https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf


16.3. Generally, you may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the Ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. However, this may not be the case with some through services that take an indirect route. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) before the destination shown on the Ticket.
 

Andy Pacer

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Hi all,
I searched this part of the forum but was unable to locate anything specific.

The question is whether it is permissible to break off (and not continue) an outbound journey and whether the return portion will still be valid.

Point in case (All tickets assume Saturday travel - off peak):
I'm at Stratford-upon-Avon (SAV) and with to go to Lapworth (LPW), cycle down the canal and catch a return train to SAV from Leamington Spa (LMS).
If I purchase a one was SAV-LPW and a one way LMS-SAV (which is the actual "real" travel), I pay:
* 10.20 (on some early services 5.20) for the first leg, and,
* 7.30 for the "return" leg

However, on the National Rail journey planner, I can get a day return "off-peak" (SAV-LMS and, THIS IS IMPORTANT, choosing VIA LPW) for 7.40.

The point (sorry for the rambling, just giving sufficient context) is, am I allowed to purchase a SAV-LMS day return, get off at LPW, cycle down and take the return from LMS to SAV? Would getting off at LPW on the outbound invalidate the return portion?
Don't see why not. They are seperate tickets anyway so the return portion wouldn't know what you've done with the outbound portion anyway if that makes sense.
 

Bletchleyite

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This is permissible unless the restrictions on the ticket prohibit it specifically. However, there isn't really any way to penalise you for it. If a member of staff states you can't do it, you can always go back to the platform and reboard a train.

This fare:
...which is I think the one you mean, does not carry any such restriction and therefore this is permissible.

There are no routed fares, only route "." which means Any Permitted.
 

RobertsN

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stratford-upon-avon
Thanks for the prompt replies. I imagined it shouldn't be an issue but just wanted to confirm that I would not be going against the rules when doing that.

P.S. I've only been in the UK for slightly over a year and still trying to make sense of the railway ticketing system :(
 

30907

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Thanks for the prompt replies. I imagined it shouldn't be an issue but just wanted to confirm that I would not be going against the rules when doing that.

P.S. I've only been in the UK for slightly over a year and still trying to make sense of the railway ticketing system :(
It may help you (or not) to know that
(1) "offpeak" return tickets are often available at little more than the one-way fare (AFAIK this is a UK speciality),
(2) as Bletchleyite says, break of journey/starting or finishing short is normally permitted except on "Advance" tickets. Not all railway staff are properly trained on this, though.

BTW you've chosen the right way round to cycle - I wouldn't care to cycle up Hatton Flight!
 

plugwash

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It's a horrible mess. Tickets with the same name on different routes can have very different restrictions.

A few years back the government decided to "simplify" things by renaming all the tickets. Unfortunately this meant that two very different ticket types are now sold under very similar names. The off peak return (formerly saver return) and the off peak day return (formerly cheap day return) for a given route can have totally different restrictions.

Off peak day returns nearly always prohibit travel in the morning rush, and sometimes also in the evening rush. Exact cutoff times vary. I don't think i've seen one with a break of journey restriction but they probablly exist somewhere.

Off peak returns have restrictions that are all over the place. Some have time restricitons some have break of journey restrictions, some have both. Sometimes the time restrictions are based on the start of the journey, sometimes they are based on when the train hits London.
 

David Goddard

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Can one of our experts confirm - is it generally correct that you can break your journey on any ticket with "Day" in the name (i.e. Anytime Day or Off Peak Day)?
 

Hadders

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It's a horrible mess. Tickets with the same name on different routes can have very different restrictions.

It's actually relatively simple once you get your head round it!

Restrictions apply to tickets not to trains. The restriction for a particular ticket will be referenced on the ticket itself. For example, on the ticket it will say 'valid only at certain times for details see nre.co.uk/xx' where xx is the particular restriction code applicable to that ticket.

In general you may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the Ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) before the destination shown on the Ticket.

I am not against simplification but only if simplification does not result in less flexibility or higher prices for passengers.
 

yorkie

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Can one of our experts confirm - is it generally correct that you can break your journey on any ticket with "Day" in the name (i.e. Anytime Day or Off Peak Day)?
Yes

The rail industry had the chance to say that this was consistently always the case, but I do not believe they have done so, which is a missed opportunity in my opinion.
 

Hadders

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Can one of our experts confirm - is it generally correct that you can break your journey on any ticket with "Day" in the name (i.e. Anytime Day or Off Peak Day)?

Yes. You can always break your journey using an Anytime ticket. Very few Off Peak tickets have break of journey restrictions, if break of journey is prohibited it will say so in the restriction code.
 

Nottingham59

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Ah, I've just realised that Lapworth (LPW) is not on the direct route from SAV to LMS, so you're trying to do two arms of a Y-shaped journey on one off-peak return ticket. The NR journey planner warns you that you may need to buy two tickets for the journey SAV->LMS. And most of the trains it puts you on for the leg from Solihull to LMS do not stop at LPW. If you want to do the exact routing you specify, I'd buy the ticket from Chiltern Railway with a printout of the itinerary associated with the purchase, just to prove it's a valid journey on the ticket you buy.

Alternatively, can you return from Warwick? Warwick is only 2 miles from Leamington. You can buy an off-peak day return from SAV to LPW for £5.30 which routes you through Warwick in both directions. The conditions of this fare from the Chiltern website are:
- Break of journey: Outward: Break of journey is allowed.
- Break of journey: Return: Break of journey is allowed.
- Not valid for travel via (changing trains or passing through) Tyseley.
So you should be able to board at Warwick on the return leg.

Hope this helps
 

Andy Pacer

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Ah, I've just realised that Lapworth (LPW) is not on the direct route from SAV to LMS, so you're trying to do two arms of a Y-shaped journey on one off-peak return ticket. The NR journey planner warns you that you may need to buy two tickets for the journey SAV->LMS. And most of the trains it puts you on for the leg from Solihull to LMS do not stop at LPW. If you want to do the exact routing you specify, I'd buy the ticket from Chiltern Railway with a printout of the itinerary associated with the purchase, just to prove it's a valid journey on the ticket you buy.

Alternatively, can you return from Warwick? Warwick is only 2 miles from Leamington. You can buy an off-peak day return from SAV to LPW for £5.30 which routes you through Warwick in both directions. The conditions of this fare from the Chiltern website are:
- Break of journey: Outward: Break of journey is allowed.
- Break of journey: Return: Break of journey is allowed.
- Not valid for travel via (changing trains or passing through) Tyseley.
So you should be able to board at Warwick on the return leg.

Hope this helps
But the OP did say the return ticket they were looking at does specify 'via Lapworth' so doesn't that make what they wish to do valid anyway?
 

Nottingham59

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the OP did say the return ticket they were looking at does specify 'via Lapworth'

The ticket doesn't specify "via Lapworth", the OP specified "via Lapworth" into the NR search engine, which generates journeys via Solihull that happen to go through Lapworth - and then warns you that some of the resulting journeys need more than one ticket.

If you try to do the same on the Chiltern website, it gives you much higher prices for journeys via Lapworth; you only get the £7.40 return fare for journeys that go directly from SAV to LMS - and those routings do not go through LPW.
 

Andy Pacer

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The ticket doesn't specify "via Lapworth", the OP specified "via Lapworth" into the NR search engine, which generates journeys via Solihull that happen to go through Lapworth - and then warns you that some of the resulting journeys need more than one ticket.

If you try to do the same on the Chiltern website, it gives you much higher prices for journeys via Lapworth; you only get the £7.40 return fare for journeys that go directly from SAV to LMS - and those routings do not go through LPW.
Thanks for the clarification. One would assume that by stating via Lapworth (for £7.40) in the search engine then that is what you would get!
 

yorkie

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Thanks for the clarification. One would assume that by stating via Lapworth (for £7.40) in the search engine then that is what you would get!
Yes that is what you would get; there is no suggestion otherwise.
 

CyrusWuff

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For reference, there's a Routeing Guide easement that covers this specific situation as well:
Routeing Guide Easements said:
700448 - Customers travelling from or via Leamington Spa to Claverdon, Bearley, Wilmcote, Stratford Parkway or Stratford Upon Avon may double back between Hatton, Lapworth, Dorridge, Widney Manor and Solihull. This easement applies in both directions
 

Nottingham59

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there's a Routeing Guide easement

So you can do it. And indeed the Chiltern website allows several routings on a Saturday from SAV to LMS that stop at LPW on the way to or back from Solihull, all for £7.40 off-peak day return. That's why the ticket conditions say "not via Tysley".
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Llandudno

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Thanks for the prompt replies. I imagined it shouldn't be an issue but just wanted to confirm that I would not be going against the rules when doing that.

P.S. I've only been in the UK for slightly over a year and still trying to make sense of the railway ticketing system :(
I have lived here for 58 years and still struggle to get my head around it!
 
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