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Brexit matters

alex397

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Free movement of labour is not a human right.
It is a right we had before Brexit, and we are humans.

It wasn’t just about labour either. It was also about studying, living, retiring, healthcare.
It wasn’t just about manual labour but working in universities, institutions, music tours and so on.
 
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RT4038

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It is a right we had before Brexit, and we are humans.

It wasn’t just about labour either. It was also about studying, living, retiring, healthcare.
It wasn’t just about manual labour but working in universities, institutions, music tours and so on.
Unfortunately those from the UK who were exercising this right elsewhere in the EU were not the same people who felt adversely affected by others exercising the reciprocity here.
 

AlterEgo

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Unfortunately those from the UK who were exercising this right elsewhere in the EU were not the same people who felt adversely affected by others exercising the reciprocity here.
Well quite. And a lot of low waged people felt rather fed up by middle class professionals telling them “it was for your own good” while their wages stagnated and our productivity did the same.
 

class ep-09

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Well quite. And a lot of low waged people felt rather fed up by middle class professionals telling them “it was for your own good” while their wages stagnated and our productivity did the same.
And how is that the fault of the middle-class exactly ?
Or EU for that matter?

Wages stagnated because words “trade unions” and “collective bargaining” had been drummed in to “working class” people’s heads as something bad , by the very people that benefited the most from low wages .

if you think suddenly this same people will start paying good wages and improve conditions now after leaving EU , you will be disappointed.

You may say that wages are increasing now - that is not true .
Inflation is higher than any wage increase so far and probably will get worse .
 

alex397

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Unfortunately those from the UK who were exercising this right elsewhere in the EU were not the same people who felt adversely affected by others exercising the reciprocity here.
Well that was an issue with our country, which we could and should have dealt with (with our sovereignty!), by improving working conditions and workers rights.

We also shouldn’t forget the many EU citizens who came here to work in academia, science and so on, as well as foreign students, most of whom have benefitted out country economically.
 

class ep-09

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Well that was an issue with our country, which we could and should have dealt with (with our sovereignty!), by improving working conditions and workers rights.

We also shouldn’t forget the many EU citizens who came here to work in academia, science and so on, as well as foreign students, most of whom have benefitted out country economically.
Absolutely !!

The problem is worse still , because our children and grandchildren will not benefit from FoM as we did .

While their counterparts from EU will ( they have 29+ countries to choose from ).

in addition , people and their children from EU countries that settled in the UK , have more rights than UK citizens .
They can live here and in the EU without any problems ( good for them after being vilified so many times ).
 

AlterEgo

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And how is that the fault of the middle-class exactly ?
Or EU for that matter?

Wages stagnated because words “trade unions” and “collective bargaining” had been drummed in to “working class” people’s heads as something bad , by the very people that benefited the most from low wages .

if you think suddenly this same people will start paying good wages and improve conditions now after leaving EU , you will be disappointed.

You may say that wages are increasing now - that is not true .
Inflation is higher than any wage increase so far and probably will get worse .
It’s not about fault but rather beginning to understand how and why 52% of the population outvoted us at the referendum

Wages for people most squeezed by the Unlimited Cheap Labour Waterfall are likely to increase in the coming years, I think. They won’t increase for everyone, though.
 

johncrossley

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It’s possible to work in any of those countries with the right permission and if the circumstances suit. That’s how it should work.

Strange opinion for someone who claims to be a Remainer. Free movement is a fundamental part of the EU.

It is a right we had before Brexit, and we are humans.

It wasn’t just about labour either. It was also about studying, living, retiring, healthcare.
It wasn’t just about manual labour but working in universities, institutions, music tours and so on.

@AlterEgo is an Irish citizen (as mentioned in Covid forum) so he's still got free movement. So he's hardly going to be that bothered about British citizens losing their rights.
 
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AlterEgo

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Strange opinion for someone who claims to be a Remainer. Free movement is a fundamental part of the EU.
I never liked or agreed with the free movement of labour and have always been sceptical about it, and I would appreciate my opinions being taken at face value instead of weaselling that I may "claim" to be something. You don't have to like the EU to vote to remain in it, which I did indeed do, because I saw it as much more beneficial for the UK to remain in a directionless and deeply flawed EU than effectively ejecting ourselves, which is what we have done.

But it is done now, and I mostly seem to observe people who still haven't properly accepted the loss or processed why it happened.
@AlterEgo is an Irish citizen (as mentioned in Covid forum) so he's still got free movement. So he's hardly going to be that bothered about British citizens losing their rights.
"You're Irish, you can't possibly care about being British, or British people's rights" is an ad hominem. I have an Irish passport - and have had it since a teenager - but I was very much born here, I am British, have a British passport, have always lived here and never in Ireland, and certainly do care about the issues, thank you.

Now try your selective xenophobia on someone who is actually foreign, instead of attempting to discount my opinion because of an accident of my birth.

You lost and will continue to lose the argument.

But it wasn't even 52% if the population, it was 52% of those that voted!
Oh well.
 

jon0844

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Until their own rights are affected, then it's always the fault of some one else! :rolleyes:

Yeah, I don't think people forced to sell their home/apartment in Spain are too happy.. but they almost certainly voted for it! (The ones that didn't vote for it probably did what they needed to do to be able to stay).

Possibly not a human right, but certainly a right that was given that I assume most people didn't expect would be taken away. I mean, do we expect that one day men or women might lose the right to vote? Who's to say we can't decide that in a referendum at some point in the future...
 

johncrossley

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Now try your selective xenophobia on someone who is actually foreign, instead of attempting to discount my opinion because of an accident of my birth.

The point is, you are not in a position to empathise with someone who is upset by the loss of free movement. Instead, you are twisting the knife.
 

AlterEgo

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The point is, you are not in a position to empathise with someone who is upset by the loss of free movement. Instead, you are twisting the knife.
Yes, I very much am in a position, thank you for the assumption - most of my family are British and do not have that right. Please remember I voted to keep this right for them and others despite my reservations about the wisdom of it.

And no, I am not twisting the knife by explaining my long-held scepticism of freedom of labour movement, and yes, I did vote Remain, and thought the Remain campaign was insulting and made manifest errors which some people still have not picked up on five years later. Unless you think I've been cosplaying as a Remainer on the forum for over five years.

I am sorry if you feel triggered by someone with an Irish passport outlining his reservations, but that is on you and not me. I reported your earlier post for the ad-hominem and not playing the ball.

I have not ever suggested your opinions are insincerely held or have unworthy motivations, and would appreciate the same courtesy from you, instead of your repeated attempts to dismiss my opinions based on what passport I happen to have.
 

Cowley

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OK. We’ve had this before with the previous Brexit thread and in the end it got so toxic that it was a relief to shut it down and give all of it a break for a while.
On that note I’d ask everyone to be respectful, and not (and this is important) get personal from here on in…

There are so many differing opinions on all of this and if we’re ever going to get anywhere I firmly believe that we’re going to have to find some kind of common ground.
So on that note and also on the basis that we’ve been here before, any posts that are antagonistic, provocative, personal, or unhelpful in this debate will just be removed from now on.
I really don’t want to be heavy handed with this so please help us out by taking a breath before posting.

Thanks everyone.
 

johncrossley

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Yes, I very much am in a position, thank you for the assumption - most of my family are British and do not have that right. Please remember I voted to keep this right for them and others despite my reservations about the wisdom of it.

And no, I am not twisting the knife by explaining my long-held scepticism of freedom of labour movement, and yes, I did vote Remain, and thought the Remain campaign was insulting and made manifest errors which some people still have not picked up on five years later. Unless you think I've been cosplaying as a Remainer on the forum for over five years.

I am sorry if you feel triggered by someone with an Irish passport outlining his reservations, but that is on you and not me. I reported your earlier post for the ad-hominem and not playing the ball.

I have not ever suggested your opinions are insincerely held or have unworthy motivations, and would appreciate the same courtesy from you, instead of your repeated attempts to dismiss my opinions based on what passport I happen to have.

If you don't believe in free movement of labour, then you should be happy with most of the current implementation of Brexit as that is the main thing that has changed. We're out of the single market but we have a free trade deal with the EU. We even get to keep the EHIC. OK, we're out of the customs union but so are Switzerland and Norway.
 

Carlisle

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Wages stagnated because words “trade unions” and “collective bargaining” had been drummed in to “working class” people’s heads as something bad , by the very people that benefited the most from low wages
If your referring to the 1980s I recollect many workers did have a healthy interest in trade unions but companies weren’t then legally obligated to recognise them , & many historically highly unionised sectors were either in decline or aggressively modernising & restructuring their businesses & operations.in order to survive.
 
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class ep-09

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If your referring to the 1980s I’d disagree with you .
Many workers had a healthy interest in trade unions but companies weren’t legally obligated to recognise them then, & much of the traditionally highly unionised sectors were either in decline or aggressively modernising & restructuring their businesses & operations.in order to survive.
I am not referring to any times be it 70’s, 80’s or whatever

Healthy relationship between workforce and business is vital for well being of entire economy and a population of a country .

Better wages and conditions, as a result of collective bargaining are part of that .
Good government should legislate to allow for that .
 

brad465

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It’s not about fault but rather beginning to understand how and why 52% of the population outvoted us at the referendum

Wages for people most squeezed by the Unlimited Cheap Labour Waterfall are likely to increase in the coming years, I think. They won’t increase for everyone, though.
What we need is not just an increase in wages in jobs that have been cheap labour, but serious investment in training capacity and campaigns to get shortages filled by home workers where immigration isn't going to be relied upon. While the Government have for over a decade repeatedly said they'll cut immigration, in reality they like it, because there's more profit in exploiting cheap labour and not spending public money on domestic education.

This is in part why our points based immigration system is setup the way it is: there is no limit on immigration for workers above the minimum score, which if anything is worse for British workers, as essentially it's "high skilled for foreign workers, low skilled for British workers".
 

edwin_m

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If you don't believe in free movement of labour, then you should be happy with most of the current implementation of Brexit as that is the main thing that has changed. We're out of the single market but we have a free trade deal with the EU. We even get to keep the EHIC. OK, we're out of the customs union but so are Switzerland and Norway.
I disagree with that. The deal could be described as "free trade in name only". It creates vast amounts of paperwork and general difficulty for anyone attempting to trade with the EU, compared to the frictionless situation in the single market and customs union. The contortions needed to reconcile this with the the Northern Ireland situation have created trade barriers within the UK, which current discussions may reduce or may escalate into a full-blown trade war. Though partly masked by Covid consequences, it's highly likely that our trade has been badly hit, affecting general prosperity and reducing the tax revenue available to support laudable initiatives such as "levelling up".
 

RT4038

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Well that was an issue with our country, which we could and should have dealt with (with our sovereignty!), by improving working conditions and workers rights.
Surely improving working conditions and workers rights, with Freedom of Movement to all those in the EU, would merely make the UK a honeypot for EU workers to come (as a right, with no restriction) and work in these fantastic jobs (compared to their own countries)?

We also shouldn’t forget the many EU citizens who came here to work in academia, science and so on, as well as foreign students, most of whom have benefitted out country economically.
I am sure that many of these will continue to come, under various visa schemes. Movement has not been ended, just the Freedom/Right.
The problem is worse still , because our children and grandchildren will not benefit from FoM as we did .
A very large number of UK citizens did not meaningfully benefit from FoM. Whilst they may have had the right, there was virtually no practical application of this right for them, and therefore no benefits. However, many felt a disbenefit from the effects of the reciprocity here. It is hardly surprising that these people did not view FoM as something worth preserving.

UK citizens went to retire in Spain and other warm countries. Well heeled people went to live in various parts of France and Italy, often remotely doing UK jobs or spending part of the time in the UK doing UK jobs. Some (relatively small) numbers of people have taken up technical jobs in European companies, and it has been easy for some to do holiday and gap year type work. I do not think anywhere in the EU the local labour market has been disturbed by UK citizens, as has happened by EU citizens in the UK. British people working as posties, rail staff, truck and bus drivers, administration etc in an EU country? I don't think so, in anything but tiny numbers.
in addition , people and their children from EU countries that settled in the UK , have more rights than UK citizens .
They can live here and in the EU without any problems ( good for them after being vilified so many times ).


Our Grandparents and Great Grandparents benefited from FoM with countries such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa etc. Gradually these freedoms were restricted/removed mostly for the same underlying reason - the effect on the local labour market. There are also some people, for various reasons, with Dual citizenship of the UK and another country, which confers more rights to them than someone with UK citizenship only. Has this ever been an issue?
 

class ep-09

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Surely improving working conditions and workers rights, with Freedom of Movement to all those in the EU, would merely make the UK a honeypot for EU workers to come (as a right, with no restriction) and work in these fantastic jobs (compared to their own countries)?


I am sure that many of these will continue to come, under various visa schemes. Movement has not been ended, just the Freedom/Right.

A very large number of UK citizens did not meaningfully benefit from FoM. Whilst they may have had the right, there was virtually no practical application of this right for them, and therefore no benefits. However, many felt a disbenefit from the effects of the reciprocity here. It is hardly surprising that these people did not view FoM as something worth preserving.

UK citizens went to retire in Spain and other warm countries. Well heeled people went to live in various parts of France and Italy, often remotely doing UK jobs or spending part of the time in the UK doing UK jobs. Some (relatively small) numbers of people have taken up technical jobs in European companies, and it has been easy for some to do holiday and gap year type work. I do not think anywhere in the EU the local labour market has been disturbed by UK citizens, as has happened by EU citizens in the UK. British people working as posties, rail staff, truck and bus drivers, administration etc in an EU country? I don't think so, in anything but tiny numbers.



Our Grandparents and Great Grandparents benefited from FoM with countries such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa etc. Gradually these freedoms were restricted/removed mostly for the same underlying reason - the effect on the local labour market. There are also some people, for various reasons, with Dual citizenship of the UK and another country, which confers more rights to them than someone with UK citizenship only. Has this ever been an issue?
How is having less rights better than having more of them?

As for people that could not / did not benefitted from FoM , is it EU’s fault ?

Now everyone lost benefits of FoM .

I do not care about commonwealth countries and what UK citizens used to be allowed to do .
That time has gone and won’t come back , plus UK citizens are not really needed or welcomed just because “ we used to be commonwealth “.

Also all commonwealth countries are simply to far to go to live / study etc.

In case of New Zealand , you have to leave planet Earth to go any further than that.
 

johncrossley

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I am sure that many of these will continue to come, under various visa schemes. Movement has not been ended, just the Freedom/Right.

Unlikely, because they will have the choice of going to the UK, requiring a time limited visa, or somewhere else in the EU, where they can live as long as they like without any paperwork. So, by and large, only non-EU citizens will be interested in coming to work in the UK in future. Highly skilled EU citizens willing to go outside the EU have better options than the UK, for example Canada, US, Australia etc.
 

RT4038

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How is having less rights better than having more of them?

As for people that could not / did not benefitted from FoM , is it EU’s fault ?
I don't think you are understanding the issue. If you have a right, for which to you there is virtually no practical application, but others reciprocally using this right are causing a disbenefit to you, then you will probably willingly give up this right. If no disbenefit was incurred then why would you?

I am guessing that you are affected by no disbenefit, or are willing to accept for the greater benefit of FoM? Fully understand this, but there are a lot of people who did not look at their situation in this way. Hence the referendum result.
I do not care about commonwealth countries and what UK citizens used to be allowed to do .
That time has gone and won’t come back , plus UK citizens are not really needed or welcomed just because “ we used to be commonwealth “.

Also all commonwealth countries are simply to far to go to live / study etc.

In case of New Zealand , you have to leave planet Earth to go any further than that.
Others don't care about EU countries and what UK citizens used to be allowed to do. I am merely pointing out that UK citizens have been in this position before; it is not something new. That time has gone and won't come back; so has FoM with the EU.

Unlikely, because they will have the choice of going to the UK, requiring a time limited visa, or somewhere else in the EU, where they can live as long as they like without any paperwork. So, by and large, only non-EU citizens will be interested in coming to work in the UK in future. Highly skilled EU citizens willing to go outside the EU have better options than the UK, for example Canada, US, Australia etc.
I am not so pessimistic. Visa rules can be changed if necessary to attract the staff that are required. Highly skilled people are not usually frightened by a bit of paperwork.
 

alex397

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Surely improving working conditions and workers rights, with Freedom of Movement to all those in the EU, would merely make the UK a honeypot for EU workers to come (as a right, with no restriction) and work in these fantastic jobs (compared to their own countries)?
No. Many Eastern Europeans were willing to have low wages and poor conditions here because it was still better than in their home countries. Improving wages and conditions would have encouraged more British workers, and then farms (for example) wouldn’t have needed to look to other countries for workers as much.
I am sure that many of these will continue to come, under various visa schemes. Movement has not been ended, just the Freedom/Right.
Of course some will. But hardly any compared to before. Most will likely head to other EU countries as there will be less bureaucracy. Therefore many of our universities, institutions and businesses lose out. Like I say, of course some will still come here, but it has become too difficult and bureaucratic for many.
A very large number of UK citizens did not meaningfully benefit from FoM. Whilst they may have had the right, there was virtually no practical application of this right for them, and therefore no benefits. However, many felt a disbenefit from the effects of the reciprocity here. It is hardly surprising that these people did not view FoM as something worth preserving.
Likewise, a large number of citizens from other EU countries didn’t benefit hugely. However, this doesn’t count how people have benefitted indirectly - such as to the economy etc.
UK citizens went to retire in Spain and other warm countries. Well heeled people went to live in various parts of France and Italy, often remotely doing UK jobs or spending part of the time in the UK doing UK jobs. Some (relatively small) numbers of people have taken up technical jobs in European companies, and it has been easy for some to do holiday and gap year type work. I do not think anywhere in the EU the local labour market has been disturbed by UK citizens, as has happened by EU citizens in the UK. British people working as posties, rail staff, truck and bus drivers, administration etc in an EU country? I don't think so, in anything but tiny numbers.
Again, the UK could have made changes to stop our labour market being ‘disturbed’. Instead, we just continued with it as many companies benefitted from cheap labour, and our country just lazily blamed the EU for this disruption rather than actually dealing with it.
 
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RT4038

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No. Many Eastern Europeans were willing to have low wages and poor conditions here because it was still better than in their home countries. Improving wages and conditions would have encouraged more British workers, and then farms (for example) wouldn’t have needed to look to other countries for workers as much.
I am really puzzled by this assertion, as if improving wages and conditions is somehow going to happen without increasing prices, fuelling inflation and not have other knock on effects throughout the economy. The country has consistently since 1979 voted for parties that would not do this!

Of course some will. But hardly any compared to before. Most will likely head to other EU countries as there will be less bureaucracy. Therefore many of our universities, institutions and businesses lose out. Like I say, of course some will still come here, but it has become too difficult and bureaucratic for many.
They may, or they may not. The UK can make it as easy or hard as they like to attract them. But they will have control over who and how many.

Likewise, a large number of citizens from other EU countries didn’t benefit hugely. However, this doesn’t count how people have benefitted indirectly - such as to the economy etc.
Quite likely a large number of citizens from other EU countries didn't benefit hugely, but presumably do not think that they disbenefit hugely either,(or just haven't been given a referendum to express their view!) Benefiting indirectly is often not visible ( and therefore will not be taken into account by the electorate), unless the Pro-EU camp chose to do so, which they didn't do very well, if at all.

Again, the UK could have made changes to stop our labour market being ‘disturbed’. Instead, we just continued with it as many companies benefitted from cheap labour, and our country just lazily blamed the EU for this disruption rather than actually dealing with it.
Yes, the UK could have Europeanised , changed our systems etc but that was not our culture and our way. We could have voted in Governments to do this. But we didn't.
 

BrokenSam

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A common complaint from many who voted for Brexit (not all) is that there are ‘too many human rights’. So, it’s a win for anyone who thinks like that!
Always curious about what human right they don't agree with exactly. Prohibition of slavery and forced Labour? Right to life?

At a guess. I assume the majority have no idea.
 

Sm5

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I looks you know better than Road Haulage Association .
Which political leaning do they have ?

Why not. They voted to Remain, and they continue to display the EU flag at the Scottish Parliament.
So did Georgia when the Russians invaded.

It’s not about fault but rather beginning to understand how and why 52% of the population outvoted us at the referendum

Wages for people most squeezed by the Unlimited Cheap Labour Waterfall are likely to increase in the coming years, I think. They won’t increase for everyone, though.
Quite, for those of us working with multi-nationals, who had European headquarters in the UK…
Many have seen those European HQ‘s move to the continent and their once global role diminish to a UK only role.. those salaries have dropped, as much as 50%, as has their career chances.
 

jon0844

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I disagree with that. The deal could be described as "free trade in name only". It creates vast amounts of paperwork and general difficulty for anyone attempting to trade with the EU, compared to the frictionless situation in the single market and customs union. The contortions needed to reconcile this with the the Northern Ireland situation have created trade barriers within the UK, which current discussions may reduce or may escalate into a full-blown trade war. Though partly masked by Covid consequences, it's highly likely that our trade has been badly hit, affecting general prosperity and reducing the tax revenue available to support laudable initiatives such as "levelling up".

It's no surprise that companies like Amazon have fully automated everything so can still supply me goods from Netherlands or Germany with two day delivery instead of one. They sort out the VAT and no doubt the paperwork is done electronically, with HMRC paid without any issue.

The smaller businesses don't have that massive infrastructure, so businesses in the EU are often refusing to ship here AT ALL, and likewise many UK firms are unable or unwilling to send goods to the EU.

NI is shielded because all the goods are now using the new shipping lanes that bypass England altogether. Most people are probably oblivious to this.
 

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