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Brexit matters

Sm5

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I never liked or agreed with the free movement of labour and have always been sceptical about it,
it works well in the US.
They have professional, commercial and economic inequalities across their country to.
Free movement has worked well in the EU, as has the single currency. Europeans do not want to give it up.

The issue as I see it, isnt one of “foreigners coming here and taking our jobs”, but of those here not wanting to go abroad to look for opportunities over there... whats worse is society acted jealously of those from here who did seek oppourtunity elsewhere. There is no excuse either, nothing held anyone back here from seeking it, and those buses bring poles, could just as easily take back unemployed brits.
As English speakers we had command of the continent, its the one language used in every country besides its native speakers own.

Well quite. And a lot of low waged people felt rather fed up by middle class professionals telling them “it was for your own good” while their wages stagnated and our productivity did the same.
But was that the fault of Europe, or our management ?

Low wages keep costs down, interest rates down.

What good is earning £10 an hour when a can of coke costs £1, if post Brexit your earning £15 an hour and your can of coke costs £1.50 ?

Trouble is with inflation, is to keep the money markets happy, as those debts need servicing, and inflating it away doesnt make them happy… so interest rate rises will surely follow, maybe before Christmas.

The only upside I see on Brexit is food trade, the EU was highly protectionist on this. Now outside the EU, Africa, South America especially South Africa, Brazil & Argentina will be able to provide far more than the losing the EU trade takes away, and it will be at a price lower than Europes. We may also benefit from fertile countries like Ukraine and Turkey.
Trouble is, its a one way trade, weve nothing to sell then at comparable price & volumes, Europe could at least afford our products.
 
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class ep-09

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it works well in the US.
They have professional, commercial and economic inequalities across their country to.
Free movement has worked well in the EU, as has the single currency. Europeans do not want to give it up.

The issue as I see it, isnt one of “foreigners coming here and taking our jobs”, but of those here not wanting to go abroad to look for opportunities over there... whats worse is society acted jealously of those from here who did seek oppourtunity elsewhere. There is no excuse either, nothing held anyone back here from seeking it, and those buses bring poles, could just as easily take back unemployed brits.
As English speakers we had command of the continent, its the one language used in every country besides its native speakers own.


But was that the fault of Europe, or our management ?

Low wages keep costs down, interest rates down.

What good is earning £10 an hour when a can of coke costs £1, if post Brexit your earning £15 an hour and your can of coke costs £1.50 ?

Trouble is with inflation, is to keep the money markets happy, as those debts need servicing, and inflating it away doesnt make them happy… so interest rate rises will surely follow, maybe before Christmas.

The only upside I see on Brexit is food trade, the EU was highly protectionist on this. Now outside the EU, Africa, South America especially South Africa, Brazil & Argentina will be able to provide far more than the losing the EU trade takes away, and it will be at a price lower than Europes. We may also benefit from fertile countries like Ukraine and Turkey.
Trouble is, its a one way trade, weve nothing to sell then at comparable price & volumes, Europe could at least afford our products.

EU has FTA with South America countries , that could benefit us as well , were we part of EU.

But we lost access to their markets ( even if only small ) completely by leaving EU.
At best Lizz Truss may roll over EU’s agreement to be UK’s “own”


Whether we like it or not FoM is back :


For HGV drivers for now .

Unlimited number of pick-ups and drop-offs in 14 days .
Then couple of days on the Continent and back to UK for another 14 days ( if pay is good ).
Btw taxes will be paid in the EU for earnings made here.
 
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edwin_m

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I am really puzzled by this assertion, as if improving wages and conditions is somehow going to happen without increasing prices, fuelling inflation and not have other knock on effects throughout the economy. The country has consistently since 1979 voted for parties that would not do this!
Isn't that exactly what this government is promoting as a benefit of Brexit?

If wages stay low then you either have to accept immigrants or face labour shortages.
 

jon0844

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The people who will actually benefit from Brexit certainly aren't thinking of higher wages. They're hoping that being free of the EU will allow a reduction of worker protections and benefits.
 

Sm5

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For HGV drivers for now .

Unlimited number of pick-ups and drop-offs in 14 days .
Then couple of days on the Continent and back to UK for another 14 days ( if pay is good ).
Btw taxes will be paid in the EU for earnings made here.
are HGV drivers exempt from immigration requirements ?
(in otherwords.. upto 180 days annually ?).

if not, theres a natural break there, as European companies will need to double their driver pool to make a year round delivery service.

That said, now we are out of the EU the decision to tighten it is just as easy as the decision to relax it… it doesnt need to be permanent.

That in itself is a risk for a European haulier. It might make a minor difference but doubt it will change the industry.
 
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AlterEgo

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What we need is not just an increase in wages in jobs that have been cheap labour, but serious investment in training capacity and campaigns to get shortages filled by home workers where immigration isn't going to be relied upon. While the Government have for over a decade repeatedly said they'll cut immigration, in reality they like it, because there's more profit in exploiting cheap labour and not spending public money on domestic education.

This is in part why our points based immigration system is setup the way it is: there is no limit on immigration for workers above the minimum score, which if anything is worse for British workers, as essentially it's "high skilled for foreign workers, low skilled for British workers".
I think that rings partly true. However, for a Skilled Worker visa for example, you need to be working in an approved job where there is a skills shortage. Chartered accountants are one, for example.

It's up to the government of course whether we have enough home-grown skilled workers, and if we don't, perhaps it is better to ask...why not? Why are the major accountancy companies filled with excellent CAs from India, New Zealand, South Africa and Canada?
 

bspahh

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Whether we like it or not FoM is back :


For HGV drivers for now .

Unlimited number of pick-ups and drop-offs in 14 days .
Then couple of days on the Continent and back to UK for another 14 days ( if pay is good ).
Btw taxes will be paid in the EU for earnings made here.

EU HGV drivers have more freedom to move and work in the UK. There is no change for the freedom of movement of UK HGV drivers in the EU.

Similarly we have a Free Trade Agreement, but that means extra paperwork. The UK can waive that paperwork for incoming goods, but UK companies have to sort it out for exports to the UK. This insulates UK consumers from shortages and delays, but does nothing for UK exporters.

Piecemeal tweaks to UK regulations adds more red tape, and means that UK companies have to spend time and money lobbying the government for their specific issues.
 

Sm5

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I think that rings partly true. However, for a Skilled Worker visa for example, you need to be working in an approved job where there is a skills shortage. Chartered accountants are one, for example.

It's up to the government of course whether we have enough home-grown skilled workers, and if we don't, perhaps it is better to ask...why not? Why are the major accountancy companies filled with excellent CAs from India, New Zealand, South Africa and Canada?
Of course companies are free to hire wherever..

our company is desperately short of skilled Cloud IT.
Many left because of Brexit, and Covid didnt bring them back.

Visa’s arent really going to help, if the employee doesnt want to be here in the first place any longer.

instead, the company just started hiring people in their home countries instead and accepted reduced headcount here. Its now grown recruitment in several overseas regions in the last year as skills attract further skills to work in communities.

long term it means the skillset / oppourtunity is lost for UK employees as the centre of excellance is nolonger on shore, so no need to hire local and you cant train them anyway as the current team have gone. Although a British born company from birth, i’m reckoning it’ll relocate its HQ out soon too, it seems to be the trend in IT currently to exit the UK.
 
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RT4038

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it works well in the US.
They have professional, commercial and economic inequalities across their country to.
Free movement has worked well in the EU, as has the single currency. Europeans do not want to give it up.

The issue as I see it, isnt one of “foreigners coming here and taking our jobs”, but of those here not wanting to go abroad to look for opportunities over there... whats worse is society acted jealously of those from here who did seek oppourtunity elsewhere. There is no excuse either, nothing held anyone back here from seeking it, and those buses bring poles, could just as easily take back unemployed brits.
As English speakers we had command of the continent, its the one language used in every country besides its native speakers own.
What exactly are these opportunities for British folk in the EU? The 30 year old plumber undercut by a flood of Eastern Europeans must be happy in the knowledge they have right to retire in Marbella? The resident of an East Anglian or Midlands town where the large number of EU immigrants have changed the society of the town must be happy in the knowledge that well heeled UK professionals have exercised their right to colonise the Loire Valley and the Dordogne? These people did not want to be seeking opportunities away from their home towns.

What would be the point of a 'people-go-round' of Poles to the UK, with the displaced Brits then going to an 'opportunity' on the Continent? Where there were opportunities for Brits elsewhere in the EU you can be sure that they were taken up - problem is that opportunities were often not there for those to whom the free movement of EU nationals into the UK were a disbenefit.

Many UK people had no desire to use FoM (other than very peripherally for their holiday) and did not want to be adversely affected by EU nationals exercising their right to come here. This is not jealousy.

It doesn't matter who you want to blame for this state of affairs - FoM had an unintended consequence in the UK following the expansion of the EU with the Eastern European states.
 

johncrossley

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The British working class had no problem with freedom of movement when it was one of the poorest countries in the bloc and had high unemployment, famously dramatised in the Auf Wiedersehen Pet comedy drama in the 80s.

I don't really see an alternative to allowing the former communist countries to join the EU. If they weren't allowed you can bet they would be back in Russia's sphere of influence. These countries have fast growing economies so they are far less likely to feel the need to flee to western Europe compared to the past.
 

jon0844

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I'm pretty sure that Putin hasn't helped fund politicians/think tanks and the likes of Cambridge Analytica etc in the US and UK without wishing to weaken both the United States and a (United) Europe. Getting Trump on side, and then destabilising Europe is great for trying to expand Russia westwards with less risk of resistance.

I am no expert on what the longer term motives might be, but having gained a lot of control of our energy supplies (especially with Putin trying to take over Ukraine, which arguably has already happened more or less) I think we're going to have to consider what Russia and China have planned in the coming years. I think it's quite clear they want to become global powers and China in particular is brilliantly positioned for this.

It's very interesting/terrifying to see it all play out. Relevance to Brexit? Well, it was meant to start a chain reaction.

Sadly, or thankfully, it hasn't. And Trump has gone (for another 3 years or so at least) so we have to hope that we can use that time wisely to try and fix things.
 

class ep-09

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What exactly are these opportunities for British folk in the EU? The 30 year old plumber undercut by a flood of Eastern Europeans must be happy in the knowledge they have right to retire in Marbella? The resident of an East Anglian or Midlands town where the large number of EU immigrants have changed the society of the town must be happy in the knowledge that well heeled UK professionals have exercised their right to colonise the Loire Valley and the Dordogne? These people did not want to be seeking opportunities away from their home towns.

What would be the point of a 'people-go-round' of Poles to the UK, with the displaced Brits then going to an 'opportunity' on the Continent? Where there were opportunities for Brits elsewhere in the EU you can be sure that they were taken up - problem is that opportunities were often not there for those to whom the free movement of EU nationals into the UK were a disbenefit.

Many UK people had no desire to use FoM (other than very peripherally for their holiday) and did not want to be adversely affected by EU nationals exercising their right to come here. This is not jealousy.

It doesn't matter who you want to blame for this state of affairs - FoM had an unintended consequence in the UK following the expansion of the EU with the Eastern European states.
Approx 1.2-1.5mil Britsh immigrants live or used to, in the EU ( at least officially ).
Many more unofficially , especially in Southern Countries .
Cash in hand jobs and all that .
Not paying taxes there nor here, taking jobs from the locals snd undercutting prices .
At the end of the day lets call them, what they are : illegal immigrants .



You mssed the fact that the cities and towns with the biggest influx of immigrants voted to overwhelmingly to remain .
The ones with lowest immigrants percentage voted for brexit the most .

Your plumber from the Middlands or other folk from East Anglia forgot , perhaps they may not be interested in moving to the Continent but their children and grandchildren may .
Now they can’t .

Btw- your Eastern Europeans
in Central Europe .
East Europe is between Moscow

are HGV drivers exempt from immigration requirements ?
(in otherwords.. upto 180 days annually ?).

if not, theres a natural break there, as European companies will need to double their driver pool to make a year round delivery service.

That said, now we are out of the EU the decision to tighten it is just as easy as the decision to relax it… it doesnt need to be permanent.

That in itself is a risk for a European haulier. It might make a minor difference but doubt it will change the industry.

I think they are exempt as they are not settling down in the country nor take benefits and all that .
Very much doubt any EU company needs to double pool of drives just because they can do more cabotage in the UK .
 
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Sm5

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I think they are exempt as they are not settling down in the country nor take benefits and all that .
Very much doubt any EU company needs to double pool of drives just because they can do more cabotage in the UK .
it would be interesting to know, as unless the EU citizen has settled or pre-settled status, or a visa, they are time limited… they no longer have right to remain Or freedom to move.
So unless there is a HGV exemption, they are no different to any other EU citizen.. 180 days in a year… which if they have to leave every 14 days suggests they dont… which means they cannot live here, and hence the transport company will need additional staff to serve this option.

Either way, its a tap the government can turn on / off and you know the RHA will be all over it.

What exactly are these opportunities for British folk in the EU? The 30 year old plumber undercut by a flood of Eastern Europeans must be happy in the knowledge they have right to retire in Marbella? The resident of an East Anglian or Midlands town where the large number of EU immigrants have changed the society of the town must be happy in the knowledge that well heeled UK professionals have exercised their right to colonise the Loire Valley and the Dordogne? These people did not want to be seeking opportunities away from their home towns.

What would be the point of a 'people-go-round' of Poles to the UK, with the displaced Brits then going to an 'opportunity' on the Continent? Where there were opportunities for Brits elsewhere in the EU you can be sure that they were taken up - problem is that opportunities were often not there for those to whom the free movement of EU nationals into the UK were a disbenefit.

Many UK people had no desire to use FoM (other than very peripherally for their holiday) and did not want to be adversely affected by EU nationals exercising their right to come here. This is not jealousy.

It doesn't matter who you want to blame for this state of affairs - FoM had an unintended consequence in the UK following the expansion of the EU with the Eastern European states.

Europe doesnt exist to serve Britain.

Europe opened up a continent for everyone to go everywhere, without restriction.. and millions have done so… it might be surprising to think, but millions of Europeans have moved between countries that doesnt include the UK and that the UK was never in their plans.

For some reason a subset of British society believed Britain exclusively opened up to Europe solely to let people come here and that there was a barrier for them to go the other way.
The only barrier was a mental one, (cyncics would say lazy or benefits driven), but ultimately it was motivation.

Even the most uneducateds in society may have been aware of auf-wiedersehn pet… there was nothing to stop anyone in the UK going to Europe, and had they done so, they would find themselves at advantage of a welcoming population and an advantage of language..

Its worth noting an Austrian working in Italy, would probably communicate in business in English with a Spanish colleague working in France, as English was a common business language.. and for both parties it needs 4 languages they need to learn.. a British person would find themselves available to communicate with one.

And fyi British plumbers, and builders in general were at very high demand in Europe, as they were considered much qualified than many locals, one of the reasons the 2004 Olympics even happened at all was the ability to contract in British labour willing to work for a deadline…
This was a uniquely British trait, the idea of if you pay more they will absorb risk to run faster is not common on the continent, and was used on high cost deadline driven projects across Europe including High Speed Rail, Stadiums, Tunneling, Hotel construction etc…

The oppourtunity was there, and many took it, of all traits and trades from the UK. but certainly some people have perhaps had it too easy for too long in this country. Brexit will bring around an appreciation for what they lost in the next few years once the money dries up.. most likely when those motivated souls take the UK jobs instead of European jobs and this starve the unmotivated ones who thought Brexit was a one way street for them to get more
 
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class ep-09

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it would be interesting to know, as unless the EU citizen has settled or pre-settled status, or a visa, they are time limited… they no longer have right to remain Or freedom to move.
So unless there is a HGV exemption, they are no different to any other EU citizen.. 180 days in a year… which if they have to leave every 14 days suggests they dont… which means they cannot live here, and hence the transport company will need additional staff to serve this option.

Either way, its a tap the government can turn on / off and you know the RHA will be all over it.
I think cabotage, and that is what UK government is allowing to do in this case, of 14 days unlimited pick ups , drop offs is very rare if not unheard off ( but that may be a sign of UK government desperation ) , as it may UK’s freight forwarders put in disadvantage because of lower prices for lorries from abroad.

Usually it is up to 3 pick ups and drop offs before returning to “home” country ) .

ilI think cabotage is allowed under TIR convention.

Also as I understand , 14 days unlimited cabotage is for each trip a lorry / driver makes to UK before going back “home”


As I understand , 14 days unlimited cabotage is for each trip a lorry / driver makes to UK before going back “home”



Similarly to pilots , the lorry drivers do not need visas, and visas regulations do do apply here ( 180 days in a year ) .

Of course a lorry driver that was banned by any reason ( not necessary related to lorry driving) won’t be allowed in .

I stand to be corrected on all above
 
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RT4038

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Europe doesnt exist to serve Britain.

Europe opened up a continent for everyone to go everywhere, without restriction.. and millions have done so… it might be surprising to think, but millions of Europeans have moved between countries that doesnt include the UK and that the UK was never in their plans.

For some reason a subset of British society believed Britain exclusively opened up to Europe solely to let people come here and that there was a barrier for them to go the other way.
The only barrier was a mental one, (cyncics would say lazy or benefits driven), but ultimately it was motivation.

Even the most uneducateds in society may have been aware of auf-wiedersehn pet… there was nothing to stop anyone in the UK going to Europe, and had they done so, they would find themselves at advantage of a welcoming population and an advantage of language..

Its worth noting an Austrian working in Italy, would probably communicate in business in English with a Spanish colleague working in France, as English was a common business language.. and for both parties it needs 4 languages they need to learn.. a British person would find themselves available to communicate with one.

And fyi British plumbers, and builders in general were at very high demand in Europe, as they were considered much qualified than many locals, one of the reasons the 2004 Olympics even happened at all was the ability to contract in British labour willing to work for a deadline…
This was a uniquely British trait, the idea of if you pay more they will absorb risk to run faster is not common on the continent, and was used on high cost deadline driven projects across Europe including High Speed Rail, Stadiums, Tunneling, Hotel construction etc…

The oppourtunity was there, and many took it, of all traits and trades from the UK. but certainly some people have perhaps had it too easy for too long in this country. Brexit will bring around an appreciation for what they lost in the next few years once the money dries up.. most likely when those motivated souls take the UK jobs instead of European jobs and this starve the unmotivated ones who thought Brexit was a one way street for them to get more
I am not doubting what you are saying, but I cannot think of anywhere in the EU where UK immigrants, with their families, have arrived in such quantities as Eastern Europeans to the UK, to live and take part in the local labour market?

At the end of the day, blaming people is not helpful. The circumstances were as they were, and this contributed to the Brexit vote.
 

alex397

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I am not doubting what you are saying, but I cannot think of anywhere in the EU where UK immigrants, with their families, have arrived in such quantities as Eastern Europeans to the UK, to live and take part in the local labour market?
Southern Spain is a very good example where British expats immigrants have moved in large numbers. Enough for English shops, cafes and bars to dominate in some areas.
 

RT4038

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Southern Spain is a very good example where British expats immigrants have moved in large numbers. Enough for English shops, cafes and bars to dominate in some areas.
Sorry, but it is not a good example really - the English shops , cafes and bars are catering for British holidaymakers and retirees (mainly). British immigrants are not generally taking part in the local labour market - posties, rail staff, bus drivers, administration, businesses catering for Spaniards etc
 

AlterEgo

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Southern Spain is a very good example where British expats immigrants have moved in large numbers. Enough for English shops, cafes and bars to dominate in some areas.
They aren't working there though or seriously impacting the job market. It's mostly retirees and semi-retirees.

Watching British people flock to Spain and retire - having never lived there before or participated in any of its institutions or society, having no interest in being remotely Spanish, or ever paid tax to the state before as they were in Britain, to leech off its health service as they age and live in retirement bubbles by the sea - was always extremely cringe.
 

Sm5

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I am not doubting what you are saying, but I cannot think of anywhere in the EU where UK immigrants, with their families, have arrived in such quantities as Eastern Europeans to the UK, to live and take part in the local labour market?
Germany, Austria, Netherlands all have large volumes of non-nationals working in their wider community.

France has mass immigration into its society, but admittedly much of it is colonial, rather than European.

Aside of Spain, there are / were a lot of Brits working in the Netherlands in more professional occupations… some dutch / belgium banks were dependant in British IT & Electrical Power management skills, aside of Banking… but unless you go there and work amongst them, most wont notice.

its not just a British immigration thing, though the media would have you believe it is.
 

AlterEgo

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Germany, Austria, Netherlands all have large volumes of non-nationals working in their wider community.
The question was framed as to whether those were British nationals.

The point the poster was making was, okay, FoM of labour is a reciprocal right, but is there anywhere that Brits have settled into the local labour market in large droves akin to what we experienced with Central and Eastern Europeans in the UK?
 

alex397

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Sorry, but it is not a good example really - the English shops , cafes and bars are catering for British holidaymakers and retirees (mainly). British immigrants are not generally taking part in the local labour market - posties, rail staff, bus drivers, administration, businesses catering for Spaniards etc
It is a good example. Not all of them are retirees. They impact on the local infrastructure, healthcare and society.
There are better examples though.

But so what if nationals from other countries maybe benefitted more from FoM than the average Brit. Not everything is equal. We benefitted in other ways. Like another poster has said, not everything revolves around the UK.
 

Sm5

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The question was framed as to whether those were British nationals.

The point the poster was making was, okay, FoM of labour is a reciprocal right, but is there anywhere that Brits have settled into the local labour market in large droves akin to what we experienced with Central and Eastern Europeans in the UK?
Netherlands is a close runner .. lots of Brits relocated out there and integrated into society.

ultimately no, but thats through British citizens chosing not exercising their rights, not through any barrier to entry… in other words they chose not to, thats hardly Europes fault.

But Whats the motive behind the question ?

Britains benefitted hugely from services sold into Europe, much more than any European country. Hundreds of non-European countries set up their European HQs in the UK. Hundreds of thousands of Brits have enjoyed professional roles that covered European business, travel supporting millions of jobs such as Admin, Technical, IT, Catering, Retail, logistics, supply, travel etc.

Now we are out, those HQs are relocating from the UK to the continent, downsizing and scaling their UK operatives and roles…
The UK was the hub for European services business more than anyone else.

One good example I was very close to, spent £1bn on its European HQ in Staines for 5000 jobs…new construction etc… post Brexit, its now 1000 staff, the HQ in Holland and those roles are all domestic UK, 4 floors of the building are to-let. To be fair at least 2000 were European.. they were flying in on expenses, supporting local hotels and restaurants..but now they are not… that money is gone. The other 2000.. supporting roles.. were contractors, no longer required.. there £650 a day is gone.

So show me where Europe benefitted of European hubs being set up in Europe for worldwide businesses on a scale seen in the UK… ireland might be closest, but its a mere fraction of that trade, and those offices more about Admin for tax, than actual huge employment hubs for delivering goods & services…like the M4 corridor etc..

Sure Brexit has generated mcJobs, but the sacrifice is the higher paid ones, which support them.. what happens once their money runs out as I’m not seeing these fabled Global opportunities designed to attract money into the country… only lower paid UK only roles, subsidiaries of EU ones.
 
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AlterEgo

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Netherlands is a close runner .. lots of Brits relocated out there and integrated into society.
A close runner? Not a chance.

There are 55,000 first generation British nationals in the Netherlands, compared to 17.5 million people living there, that's...0.3% of the population.

In the UK, there are
850,000 Polish people living here, which is 1.3% of the population
404,000 Romanians, 0.6%
120,000 Bulgarians, 0.2%

And so on and so on.

Just 3% of our population works in the EU.

By comparison, 35% of Bulgarians live abroad, mostly in the EU. Thirty five per cent! Their population is declining.


ultimately no, but thats through British citizens chosing not exercising their rights, not through any barrier to entry… in other words they chose not to, thats hardly Europes fault.
But the vast majority of people in the UK don't want to work in the EU. Just two million people do that. It's a niche pursuit. I don't think you can criticise people who have literally no intention of exercising a right for deciding to vote to end that right, especially when that right was conditional on people coming here to enter our labour market and provide what the libertarians would call "competition" but what most voters would consider lowering the going rate for work.
But Whats the motive behind the question ?

Britains benefitted hugely from services sold into Europe, much more than any European country. Hundreds of non-European countries set up their European HQs in the UK. Hundreds of thousands of Brits have enjoyed professional roles that covered European business, travel supporting millions of jobs such as Admin, Technical, IT, Catering, Retail, logistics, supply, travel etc.

Now we are out, those HQs are relocating from the UK to the continent, downsizing and scaling their UK operatives and roles…
The UK was the hub for European services business more than anyone else.

One good example I was very close to, spent £1bn on its European HQ in Staines for 5000 jobs…new construction etc… post Brexit, its now 1000 staff, the HQ in Holland and those roles are all domestic UK, 4 floors of the building are to-let. To be fair at least 2000 were European.. they were flying in on expenses, supporting local hotels and restaurants..but now they are not… that money is gone. The other 2000.. supporting roles.. were contractors, no longer required.. there £650 a day is gone.

So show me where Europe benefitted of European hubs being set up in Europe for worldwide businesses on a scale seen in the UK… ireland might be closest, but its a mere fraction of that trade, and those offices more about Admin for tax, than actual huge employment hubs for delivering goods & services…like the M4 corridor etc..

Sure Brexit has generated mcJobs, but the sacrifice is the higher paid ones, which support them.. what happens once the money runs out….
Only time will tell, but framing FoM as some sort of golden goose upon which every aspect of British society and its economy depends has been a losing strategy since 2016.

If you ever want to know why the Tories keep winning, a large part of the secret is simply that for as long as the centre and left alliance keeps going on about how the absolute lynchpin of everything that matters to Britain ever is membership of the EU...then...what exactly is the Labour Party for?

This is a classic, and rather gentle example of how I think people who'd consider themselves moderates have simply lost their way. A more significant one is the relentless repeating of conspiracy theories about Putin, fear of China, and so on. To be honest, if you feared Putin and wanted to moderate China...being in the EU ain't a good way to do that with its track record on both.

We are heading towards a multipolar world.
 

Sm5

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But the vast majority of people in the UK don't want to work in the EU.

If you ever want to know why the Tories keep winning, a large part of the secret is simply that for as long as the centre and left alliance keeps going on about how the absolute lynchpin of everything that matters to Britain ever is membership of the EU...then...what exactly is the Labour Party for?

..dont care for any of the parties myself…because
We are heading towards a multipolar world.
And Britain isnt one of the poles in it.
We are being driven by bigger events than our country, no matter what the politicians say, we are at mercy of China, Russia, America and Europe, we can only try to influence that framework, but we cannot change it to our advantage.

The world exists on trade, trades need trade offs.. FoM was a trade off for inward investment making the UK a European hub for the world. Lose one, lose the other… so we are declining in services to Europe in return for giving up FoM.. so how do you resolve the deficit and grow ?

if the UK is to be big,bold and brave post EU, its going to need to invent “something“ that isnt just what Europe wants, but the whole world wants, and resist temptation to sell the idea to the Americans, but be willing to invest in it like the Americans, produce it like the Chinese, style it in a European sense and price it so even Africa can afford…
Ive not seen anything like that come out of the UK since the railways were invented.

like it or not, we are going to need to be friends to our neighbours, because the Chinese dont care, the Russians will copy it and the Americans only want to sell us stuff or buy our IP not our product. The rest of the world simply isnt on the same revenue scale in any practical manner as Europe is.

Unfortunately for at least the next 40 years Britain is out of Europe, and that takes us to a longer period than Europes ever known continued military stability, so much can happen. However, thats really our best hope, that the UK can divide and conquer Europe One country at a time… but in the meantime we are going to be a minor subsidiary of European operations, paid less, with less influence and less investment…

We will see whats left after the post covid rush is sated, and when inflation, interest rates have had their bites…but wages & demand levels off. That might mean more to voters than any Brexit loyalty, which will be long forgotten, maybe just about in time for the next election…

as to who will win.. ive no idea, as our leaders don't have any ideas either, my best hope is a revolution right now.
 
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RT4038

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But the vast majority of people in the UK don't want to work in the EU. Just two million people do that. It's a niche pursuit. I don't think you can criticise people who have literally no intention of exercising a right for deciding to vote to end that right, especially when that right was conditional on people coming here to enter our labour market and provide what the libertarians would call "competition" but what most voters would consider lowering the going rate for work.
For the 25 years or so from our entry into the EEC to the turn of the century FoM worked fine. The accession of the former Eastern Bloc countries, relatively under developed and a huge reservoir of under employed citizens, completely changed that. The UK was very welcoming to these people and certainly did its bit to assimilate them into the EU. However, 15 years later this was causing political and social problems which the EU turned a deaf ear to. Probably they saw the numbers of professional and retired UK citizens that had emigrated to Europe and thought that the UK couldn't have its cake and eat it, without much of a thought that, to an individual voter, this was not seen as a quid pro quo.

In the referendum, UK citizens living outside the UK who had taken advantage of FoM living outside the UK couldn't vote. Those who felt that FoM had disadvantaged them on their home turf could.

ultimately no, but thats through British citizens chosing not exercising their rights, not through any barrier to entry… in other words they chose not to, thats hardly Europes fault.

But Whats the motive behind the question ?

Britains benefitted hugely from services sold into Europe, much more than any European country. Hundreds of non-European countries set up their European HQs in the UK. Hundreds of thousands of Brits have enjoyed professional roles that covered European business, travel supporting millions of jobs such as Admin, Technical, IT, Catering, Retail, logistics, supply, travel etc.
There was a pretty serious barrier to entry for many people - there were no opportunities for them. Not talking about professional roles - how many UK citizens worked in European local labour market jobs? Posties, rail staff, bus drivers, administration etc. Very, very few. It is disingenious to say they 'chose not to' - there were no opportunities. If there were, why didn't the Eastern European labour go directly to them? What is the point of Eastern European labour coming to the UK to displace British labour to move to another EU country?

It is pretty obvious what the problem was and the EU chose to ignore it.

It is a good example. Not all of them are retirees. They impact on the local infrastructure, healthcare and society.
There are better examples though.
They may not all be retirees, but they were mostly servicing British expatriates and/or holidaymakers. No doubt they did impact on the local infrastructure, healthcare and society. But only in a relatively small area of Spain / France / Italy. Most of the those countries were essentially unaffected, so a national referendum would not have been swung by those dissatisfied.
But so what if nationals from other countries maybe benefitted more from FoM than the average Brit. Not everything is equal. We benefitted in other ways. Like another poster has said, not everything revolves around the UK.
Of course we benefitted in other ways, but was that quantified and communicated in a convincing way to the referendum voters? No. Indirect benefits are all very well, but if they are not visible.....
 
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AlterEgo

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For the 25 years or so from our entry into the EEC to the turn of the century FoM worked fine. The accession of the former Eastern Bloc countries, relatively under developed and a huge reservoir of under employed citizens, completely changed that. The UK was very welcoming to these people and certainly did its bit to assimilate them into the EU. However, 15 years later this was causing political and social problems which the EU turned a deaf ear to. Probably they saw the numbers of professional and retired UK citizens that had emigrated to Europe and thought that the UK couldn't have its cake and eat it, without much of a thought that, to an individual voter, this was not seen as a quid pro quo.

In the referendum, UK citizens living outside the UK who had taken advantage of FoM living outside the UK couldn't vote. Those who felt that FoM had disadvantaged them on their home turf could.
I think this is the nub of the matter.

Strangely, EU immigration from the East has become much less transactional. At the outset, the trend was: young people came, often without family, to work for a couple of years and put in serious graft to save money to send home. While they were taxed here, they mostly lived austere lives in house shares and sent money out of the country rather than spending it here.

Now, with the increase in living standards (esp in Poland), and the declining pound against the Euro, this is not attractive, and a lot of the Eastern Europeans you see here now are very well-established and strongly integrated in the local community, often marrying locally and raising their children as British nationals. I think it's all very unfortunate and Blair has a lot to answer for. It was a Pandora's box of unintended consequences and I feel sorry for the Poles, Romanians and Bulgarians who feel Brexit was a slight against them.
 

Sm5

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There was a pretty serious barrier to entry for many people - there were no opportunities for them. Not talking about professional roles - how many UK citizens worked in European local labour market jobs? Posties, rail staff, bus drivers, administration etc. Very, very few. It is disingenious to say they 'chose not to' - there were no opportunities. What is the point of Eastern European labour coming to the UK to displace British labour to move to another EU country?
its really hard to read this and not think of laziness.
i’m fortunate to travel, and Cannes is a regular visit.

Any Brit could move to Cannes, turn up at La Poste and ask for a job.
Chances are they would get it too… last time I was there, retailers, restaurants, taxis, despatchers, estate agents .. everywhere were advertising for english speaking staff In their windows (they actually still are, just not British english speakers now), and full time not just summer… those jobs do exist, if you go to where the jobs are.
Additionally cost isnt a barrier, just a few miles from the sea residential is low cost, travel is low cost as is cost of living, so you could make yourself a lifestyle in a place where everyone is encouraged to have English as a language.

Thing is, people chose not to, quite simply its too cushy to sit here, and get a job here. Thats fine, thats their choice.
The same was true in Poland.

The difference was, they went to their local bus station, bought a ticket to Victoria coach station with nothing other than a back pack. They had no idea what to find in arrival and relied on previous friends to assist. On arrival many blew their savings on cheap accomodation, looked for adverts in job windows and applied here. Very few of them had a map or knowledge of this country, or had someone pay them to come here, or had a job on arrival.. they motivated to do it themselves.

no one rolled out a red carpet, hired a private jet and flew them here, yet it seems like British people are expecting Europe to do that for them.

Can I ask if you so against freedom of movement in Europe, whats your thoughts on freedom of movement in the US ? - afterall there are postmen in Miami, so why move from New York ?.. or for that matter in the UK.. afterall there are postmen in Scotland, so why move from England ?

Opportunity is what you make it, not what you expect to be delivered to you.
 
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AlterEgo

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its really hard to read this and not think of laziness.
i’m fortunate to travel, and Cannes is a regular visit.

Any Brit could move to Cannes, turn up at La Poste and ask for a job.
Sorry, it's now "lazy" not to move to France?

What if people who were born in Britain don't want to move to France and live there?

And people still wonder why Remain lost!
 

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