Brexit matters

[dosxuk]

For me it still wasn't that the parties (and they were parties, let's call a spade a spade) happened - it was that Boris and his associates continually lied about them happening, and when each lie got disproved, they made up a new lie to adapt to the situation.

Him admitting, that yes, he was presented with a birthday cake at the start of a cabinet meeting and they had a drink to celebrate before getting down to business, or admitting that yes, he did attend the last day of a senior civil service staff member and raise a toast to him, would both have been damaging but far less than everything him saying being contradicted by a subsequent leak a day or two later.

People needed humility from the leader of the country, instead they got excuses, bluster and bluffing - and that is what eventually destroyed his credibility. A good leader is not just someone who makes the right decisions, they're someone who can admit when they got them wrong and mean it when they apologise.

We saw the exact same thing with Dom - lie about things, when found out, invent bigger lie, when found out, invent ridiculous lie, hope everything blows over. What was different for Dom is that the public had no ability to kick him out of office, so instead of outrage at his behaviour his story became a subject of ridicule.

 

[AM9]

For me it still wasn't that the parties (and they were parties, let's call a spade a spade) happened - it was that Boris and his associates continually lied about them happening, and when each lie got disproved, they made up a new lie to adapt to the situation.

Him admitting, that yes, he was presented with a birthday cake at the start of a cabinet meeting and they had a drink to celebrate before getting down to business, or admitting that yes, he did attend the last day of a senior civil service staff member and raise a toast to him, would both have been damaging but far less than everything him saying being contradicted by a subsequent leak a day or two later.

People needed humility from the leader of the country, instead they got excuses, bluster and bluffing - and that is what eventually destroyed his credibility. A good leader is not just someone who makes the right decisions, they're someone who can admit when they got them wrong and mean it when they apologise.

We saw the exact same thing with Dom - lie about things, when found out, invent bigger lie, when found out, invent ridiculous lie, hope everything blows over. What was different for Dom is that the public had no ability to kick him out of office, so instead of outrage at his behaviour his story became a subject of ridicule.

Then Cummings he wasn't any use to Johnson, he was disposed of, - unfortunately, forgetting that Cummings was recruited as a scheming plotter, and used his knowledge of where all the dead bodies were to wreak his revenge to get rid of Johnson. Live by the sword ...

 

[Enthusiast]

And, again, it's not about the effin' cake! It's about the culture in his administration where people thought that was perfectly fine to have a birthday party - while people weren't able to be with loved ones as they died.

I absolutely agree.

It isn’t about what was actually done (which seems, in the scheme of things, fairly innocuous and was only “illegal” by virtue of the ridiculous and pointless legislation that was in force). At various times whilst all these “parties”, “leaving dos” and “work related events” were going on, the population was subject to some of the most Draconian laws this country has ever seen. People could not visit each other’s houses, they had to have a “reasonable excuse” to leave their home, they could not even stand and chat in the open air. “Gatherings” for events such as funerals and weddings were severely restricted, pubs, restaurants and many other businesses were forcibly closed. People could not visit their loved ones in hospital. In short, human social interaction was seen not as an essential part of our being, but a luxury which could effectively be outlawed as and when required. Most people complied because they did not have the benefit of the hindsight we now enjoy, which is indicating with an increasing degree of certainty that many of the measures were unnecessary and pointless. Coupled with that, they were subject to the government’s strategy which, essentially, was to scare the population witless into compliance.

And then we see this lot. It is quite evident that senior politicians and civil servants decided that the rules did not apply to them. Their work was far too important to be hindered by petty regulations. No, “saving lives” and “protecting the NHS” was not for them. That was arrogant enough. But on top of that, they had to carry on their social lives similarly untrammelled. There was no need for them to celebrate birthdays in their workplaces; no need to hold parties to mark a staff member leaving. After all, nobody else could, so why should they? They treated the population with contempt and it is quite clear that they had no regard for the measures that were imposed upon everybody else. This begs the question as to how necessary they believed they were. If they had to attend their workplaces they should have carried out their work, clocked off and returned home. Many people regard socialising as an important part of their employment. But they had to stop it. I’m afraid any politicians who have been sanctioned because of their behaviour deserved all they got.

 

[Howardh]

Shortage of dentists and general NHS staff, Steve Barclay says

I have been working at pace over recent weeks to accelerate our contingency plans, to look at specific levers such as increasing significantly our international recruitment ...

A big part of my focus has been giving a lot more ministerial time to looking at the issues on delayed discharge, on social care recruitment. If there’s pressure on the system and that requires more beds in the community, those beds need the workforce to go with them.

Wonder what went wrong? At least the Telegraph seems to admit that we need to

employ more nurses from countries that train more nurses than they need, including India, Sri Lanka and the Philippines.

If we've lost the EU/EEA's at least we can get them in...but how quickly?

No 10’s refusal of emergency budget shows Tories have lost control of economy, says Labour – as it happened

Opposition criticises decision not to make big fiscal interventions in final weeks of Boris Johnson’s premiership

www.theguardian.com

 

[najaB]

Shortage of dentists and general NHS staff, Steve Barclay says... Wonder what went wrong?

Indeed. I thought there were legions of UK-native dentists and general NHS staff who were being undercut by EU/EEA nationals who would work for less?

Or something like that.

 

[SteveP29]

Meanwhile millions of people were visiting supermarkets everyday.

Yeah, they were shopping for food so that they and those unable to go shopping could eat and survive, they were socially distancing at the time, many were afraid to go anywhere near others just in case, how bad of them to do that, lock them all up, throw away the keys. I suppose you just survived on thin air and rainwater, did you?

You can't correlate people shopping to survive with people deliberately meeting in a garden to get pissed FFS.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Yeah, they were shopping for food so that they and those unable to go shopping could eat and survive, they were socially distancing at the time, many were afraid to go anywhere near others just in case, how bad of them to do that, lock them all up, throw away the keys. I suppose you just survived on thin air and rainwater, did you?

You can't correlate people shopping to survive with people deliberately meeting in a garden to get pissed FFS.

And I suppose they were running around like supermarket sweep.....oh no they weren't were they. "FFS"

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yeah, they were shopping for food so that they and those unable to go shopping could eat and survive, they were socially distancing at the time, many were afraid to go anywhere near others just in case, how bad of them to do that, lock them all up, throw away the keys. I suppose you just survived on thin air and rainwater, did you?

I think the key phrase in the post you were replying to is 'every day'. The point being that we were supposed to go to the supermarket only when we needed to, but (allegedly) lots of people were bending the rules by visiting the supermarket a lot more often than they actually needed to. I don't know to what extent that happened, but I do recall at the time, I regularly went out cycling, and it was very noticeable that most supermarket car parks I cycled past were a lot more crowded than they would've been pre-Covid, so I suspect there was some truth in the idea that a fair few people were deliberately going shopping when they didn't need to, presumably people who wanted to get out of the house but didn't want to exercise (at a time when 'exercise' and 'buying food' were pretty much the only legitimate non-work reasons you could legally go out).

 

[Enthusiast]

The point being that we were supposed to go to the supermarket only when we needed to..

Were we? I don't recall any such restriction in the legislation:

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020

These Regulations require the closure of businesses selling food or drink for consumption on the premises, and businesses listed in Part 2 of Schedule 2, to protect against the risks to public health arising from coronavirus, except for limited permitted uses. Restrictions are imposed on...

www.legislation.gov.uk

Restrictions on movement​

6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave [F1or be outside of] the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—

(a)to obtain basic necessities, including food and medical supplies for those in the same household (including any pets or animals in the household) or for vulnerable persons and supplies for the essential upkeep, maintenance and functioning of the household, or the household of a vulnerable person, F2... including from any business listed in Part 3 of Schedule 2;

Says nothing about only when we needed to. If legislators wanted to make even more onerous the most ridiculous measures this country has ever seen, they needed to spell it out. Same with the fabled "only once a day" exercise restriction. There was no such stipulation. You could go out for as long as you liked as many times as you liked. The restrictions on movement legislation was ridiculous because it meant you could go out and about almost as much as you liked, so long as you took advantage of one of the "reasonable excuses". Far better if the government had simply said "try not to go out too much."

 

[najaB]

to obtain basic necessities, including food and medical supplies for those in the same household (including any pets or animals in the household) or for vulnerable persons and supplies for the essential upkeep, maintenance and functioning of the household, or the household of a vulnerable person, F2... including from any business listed in Part 3 of Schedule 2;

Says nothing about only when we needed to.

One would have a difficulty arguing that you were going out regularly to obtain "basic necessities" if you had a well-stocked larder.

 

[TwoYellas]

Former Brexit minister Frost has claimed that there is no evidence that we are in a climate emergency. I'd rather believe the scientists than Frost.

 

[Enthusiast]

One would have a difficulty arguing that you were going out regularly to obtain "basic necessities" if you had a well-stocked larder.

But the legislation did not require you to keep a well stocked larder. And some people like to buy fresh produce every day. Short of examining your larder and your eating/shopping habits, nobody has any idea why you might be out shopping. The legislation was hastily and badly framed and almost impossible to enforce. Far better to have advised people simply to keep their shopping expeditions and general mixing to a minimum.

 

[Howardh]

One would have a difficulty arguing that you were going out regularly to obtain "basic necessities" if you had a well-stocked larder.

Was having a stock of 1000 toilet rolls a necessity?!

 

[Gloster]

Was having a stock of 1000 toilet rolls a necessity?!

Hoard immunity.

 

[Enthusiast]

Was having a stock of 1000 toilet rolls a necessity?!

Nobody had 1,000. I only had about 850, max.

Hoard immunity.

 

[najaB]

The legislation was hastily and badly framed and almost impossible to enforce. Far better to have advised people simply to keep their shopping expeditions and general mixing to a minimum.

That I don't disagree with at all.

 

[317 forever]

Was having a stock of 1000 toilet rolls a necessity?!

It is now necessary for some railway stations to have them, to issue tickets on

 

[REVUpminster]

It is now necessary for some railway stations to have them, to issue tickets on

At least they would be bio degradable.

 

[brad465]

Looks like Gove ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time:

Michael Gove confronted by angry woman delayed for 30 hours at airport

A former Labour councillor spent 15 minutes challenging Michael Gove about Brexit

www.independent.co.uk

Michael Gove was confronted by an anti-Brexit holidaymaker over after being caught up in huge queues at a Greek airport.

Candida Jones, a former Labour councillor who works for a Labour peer, challenged the former cabinet minister while facing a 30-hour delay which she said was “compounded” by Brexit.

A “tanned” Mr Gove was pictured standing alone in the same queue, but it is thought he was not on the same flight to Gatwick.

Ms Jones, from South London, was due to return to Gatwick on Saturday, but easyJet postponed her flight to 10.35pm on Sunday due to disruption at airports.

Ms Jones tweeted yesterday: “Almost 30hr delay to our easyJet flight now. I’m told the problem’s a lack of staff due to the pandemic compounded, in the case of the UK, by #Brexit.

“So it’s at least some consolation to find arch Brexiteer Michael Gove caught up in the same sh**show #BrexitChaos #BrexitShambles.”

If history is anything to go by maybe the queue was so long because they had to search extra hard for potential white powder in Gove's possessions.

 

[Berliner]

Looks like Gove ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time:

Michael Gove confronted by angry woman delayed for 30 hours at airport

A former Labour councillor spent 15 minutes challenging Michael Gove about Brexit

www.independent.co.uk

If history is anything to go by maybe the queue was so long because they had to search extra hard for potential white powder in Gove's possessions.

I don't think she has much reason to complain to Gove when her party wholeheartedly supports brexit, doesn't want to change anything and indeed wants to just make do with what we have. Her leader doesn't even see a need to return to the EU. Not only that but her party in Scotland also supports us remaining part of this brexiting mess of a union.

If I had been there I'd have asked why she was berating Gove when she's still working for a party who seems to quite like his accomplishments.

 

[duncanp]

Looks like Gove ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time:

Michael Gove confronted by angry woman delayed for 30 hours at airport

A former Labour councillor spent 15 minutes challenging Michael Gove about Brexit

www.independent.co.uk

If history is anything to go by maybe the queue was so long because they had to search extra hard for potential white powder in Gove's possessions.

I think some people are using Brexit as a convenient excuse for everything that goes wrong, just like they are doing with COVID.

Airport delays have been happening all over the world as the industry recovers from COVID, and the delays at some EU airports such as Amsterdam and Dublin have been as bad if not worse than at Heathrow and Gatwick.

If Brexit was the main factor behind airport delays, you wouldn't see any disruption outside the UK, and yet this is patently not the case.

 

[najaB]

I think some people are using Brexit as a convenient excuse for everything that goes wrong, just like they are doing with COVID.

Airport delays have been happening all over the world as the industry recovers from COVID, and the delays at some EU airports such as Amsterdam and Dublin have been as bad if not worse than at Heathrow and Gatwick.

If Brexit was the main factor behind airport delays, you wouldn't see any disruption outside the UK, and yet this is patently not the case.

As many people have already said, but we'll have to continue saying until it gets through: Yes, there are economic problems globally, but the UK is unique (other than Russia) in that we have enacted and are committed to continuing with policies which are designed to make the problems worse and slow our recovery from them.

We are the only G7 member that was forecast to have negative growth even before Russia invaded Ukraine, and we're the only one who is forecast to have an extended recession. Interestingly, the only part of the UK that is not suffering these issues is Northern Ireland which, purely coincidentally I'm sure, is the only part of the UK that's still in the EU single market.

 

[duncanp]

As many people have already said, but we'll have to continue saying until it gets through: Yes, there are economic problems globally, but the UK is unique (other than Russia) in that we have enacted and are committed to continuing with policies which are designed to make the problems worse and slow our recovery from them.

We are the only G7 member that was forecast to have negative growth even before Russia invaded Ukraine, and we're the only one who is forecast to have an extended recession. Interestingly, the only part of the UK that is not suffering these issues is Northern Ireland which, purely coincidentally I'm sure, is the only part of the UK that's still in the EU single market.

The article in The Independent being referred to here was about a Labour councillor who was berating Michael Gove for a 30 hour airport delay, and trying to blame Brexit, whereas in fact there were other reasons for the hold up.

Rather like those who tried to blame Brexit for the queues at Dover:-

Tourist has an approx: 10 minutes to go through French Border Control. Freight is running normally. All approach roads to the port are running clear.

....is a Tweet from the Port of Dover at 08:05 today.

If Brexit was the primary cause of delays at Dover, then there would still be delays even now, as I don't recall the UK rejoining the EU on the quiet in the past few weeks.

Similarly when I passed through St Pancras station the other week - there were no excessive queues for Eurostar, and everything was running smoothly.

 

[RT4038]

There will be those who voted for Brexit and knew full well that there will be pain for a period, but felt it worth going through in order to free the UK to go its own way. No gain without pain.

 

[ainsworth74]

There will be those who voted for Brexit and knew full well that there will be pain for a period, but felt it worth going through in order to free the UK to go its own way. No gain without pain.

I don't recall it being sold that way though...

 

[najaB]

If Brexit was the primary cause of delays at Dover, then there would still be delays even now, as I don't recall the UK rejoining the EU on the quiet in the past few weeks.

That's early in the morning on a Wednesday in mid August. Hardly peak time for tourists, and much of European industry is on their summer holidays.

What the media has been studiously ignoring is that the real delays aren't at the port. They are at the truck parks, where they have been averaging 13 hours of late - and this is during the summer slowdown. On some days in the recent past they have been up as high as 39 hours!

 

[nlogax]

There will be those who voted for Brexit and knew full well that there will be pain for a period, but felt it worth going through in order to free the UK to go its own way. No gain without pain.

Could we please stop retrofitting these false narratives to the situation? Thanks.

 

[edwin_m]

I don't recall it being sold that way though...

And I'm pretty sure that 52% of those who voted weren't in favour of that sort of pain.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Could we please stop retrofitting these false narratives to the situation? Thanks.

How is that a false a narrative? As far as I can see, it's completely correct: It was always very obvious (at least, to me), if we did Brexit, there would be significant temporary difficulties as the UK transitioned to its new status. There always are difficulties at the start when you make some huge change. (I do think however @ainsworth74 is also correct to the extent that the Leave Campaign didn't really adequately point that out).

 

[najaB]

Could we please stop retrofitting these false narratives to the situation? Thanks.

To be fair, there will be some people who feel that way. I suspect they are very much in the minority though. Certainly, my friends who were pro-Brexit have either come to say that it was a mistake, or that what we have "isn't the Brexit they voted for".