Brexit matters

[WelshBluebird]

I trust we will hear no further quibble from staunch Remainers about Union Flags on government buildings or projects, which has served only to irredeemably damage the cause of Remain.

Two things on that.

Firstly the complaints I've seen about union flags on buildings hasn't been a brexit or remain thing, it's been a Welsh / Scottish nationalist thing.

Secondly, don't you think either flying a relatively small flag or having a relatively small EU logo somewhere is a bit different to having a 4 floor union jack on the side of a building?

Basically - there's a bit of a difference in impact, size and intent between the two scenarios.

 

[najaB]

I trust we will hear no further quibble from staunch Remainers about Union Flags on government buildings or projects, which has served only to irredeemably damage the cause of Remain.

I'm not saying this has never happened, but I am at a loss trying to remember examples of complaints from anti-Brexit campaigners over small plaques or standard size Union Flags being displayed on government buildings. Perhaps you would be kind enough to supply a link or two?

 

[AlterEgo]

Two things on that.

Firstly the complaints I've seen about union flags on buildings hasn't been a brexit or remain thing, it's been a Welsh / Scottish nationalist thing.

Secondly, don't you think either flying a relatively small flag or having a relatively small EU logo somewhere is a bit different to having a 4 floor union jack on the side of a building?

Basically - there's a bit of a difference in impact, size and intent between the two scenarios.

I'm not talking about the giant UJ on a building, I'm talking about proposals to simply have government buildings fly the flag of the country they're in, which caused quite a stir among the FBPE/3.5% brigade online.

I'm not saying this has never happened, but I am at a loss trying to remember examples of complaints from anti-Brexit campaigners over small plaques or standard size Union Flags being displayed on government buildings. Perhaps you would be kind enough to supply a link or two?

You should have been on Twitter to see the furore that was caused by the idea that government buildings fly the flag. It was like catnip to the FBPE lot, an impending warning of far right fascism, yada yada yada. In any case, I note not a whimper of support in favour of the idea of Union Jacks on government buildings from the arch-Remain crew.

The most catastrophic damage to the Remain campaign was its image of relentless doom-mongering and self-loathing. Not enough was done to show people who voted to Leave that actually, it was possible to love Britain and our membership of the EU at the same time without ideological conflict. National symbols are important, and this is one of the only developed countries where it's popular to cringe at the national flag for status. The Union Jack is fine.

 

[najaB]

In any case, I note not a whimper of support in favour of the idea of Union Jacks on government buildings from the arch-Remain crew.

I was opposed to Brexit but see no problem with Union Flags being flow on UK Government facilities.

 

[Annetts key]

AlterEgo. No, I disagree. We as a country have let far right fascism use the flag as a symbol. I have no problem with the flag being flown or displayed. Although if flags are always flown on a building or at a location, it diminishes the impact when the flag is flown to commemorate certain special occasions. As happens at some locations at present.

BTW I’m a remainer. I believe as a human being, we should help one another and cooperative, regardless of which country we were born in. Man made borders are there to restrict freedom.

 

[AlterEgo]

I was opposed to Brexit but see no problem with Union Flags being flow on UK Government facilities.

That’s great! Me too. I’m really talking about the general perception which can be dictated by the 3.5% types. Loudest voices are most usually heard of course. I wasn’t accusing anyone in the thread of such a mistake.

AlterEgo. No, I disagree. We as a country have let far right fascism use the flag as a symbol.

Do you think this is in no small part because…we let them?

Look at Ireland. For decades, terrorists - actual murderers - appropriated the Irish tricolor for their cause. Draping their dead in the flag, flying the flag at funerals, using it in sectarian murals.

Why do you think it is that when we now see the Irish flag, we don’t associate it with that kind of behaviour? Isn’t it because the symbol was comprehensively rehabilitated? Irish people don’t cringe at their flag and go “och that’s awful; so many flags, that’s the terrorist one isn’t it?”.

The liberal soft middle and left abandoned the Union Flag long ago and decided it was a far right symbol, nobody else.

 

[najaB]

I’m really talking about the general perception which can be dictated by the 3.5% types. Loudest voices are most usually heard of course. I wasn’t accusing anyone in the thread of such a mistake.

The thing is, people like that are going to be offended by everything. All the time. They are no more "staunch remainers" than they are "devout Christians" or whatever it is they have decided to get their knickers in a knot about this week. They should be ignored at worst and ridiculed at best.

 

[class ep-09]

Well quite; there is no problem.

I trust we will hear no further quibble from staunch Remainers about Union Flags on government buildings or projects, which has served only to irredeemably damage the cause of Remain.

I voted Remain and am more annoyed about the intellectual dishonesty of my own “side” than the other. At least Tory dishonesty and malpractice is being taken apart bit by bit in this thread.

Nothing against of any flags providing they are not for political scoring or pound shop patriotism.

 

[berneyarms]

I'm not talking about the giant UJ on a building, I'm talking about proposals to simply have government buildings fly the flag of the country they're in, which caused quite a stir among the FBPE/3.5% brigade online.

You should have been on Twitter to see the furore that was caused by the idea that government buildings fly the flag. It was like catnip to the FBPE lot, an impending warning of far right fascism, yada yada yada. In any case, I note not a whimper of support in favour of the idea of Union Jacks on government buildings from the arch-Remain crew.

The most catastrophic damage to the Remain campaign was its image of relentless doom-mongering and self-loathing. Not enough was done to show people who voted to Leave that actually, it was possible to love Britain and our membership of the EU at the same time without ideological conflict. National symbols are important, and this is one of the only developed countries where it's popular to cringe at the national flag for status. The Union Jack is fine.

Twitter is really not a very accurate way of judging public opinion.

It’s handy for news and transport updates, but I think it’s not a great place to judge the mood of the nation.

The vast majority of people avoid discussing politics on social media - hence you tend to get the extremes on both sides of the argument as opposed to a more realistic view.

I wouldn’t get too exercised by what you read there.

 

[AlterEgo]

Twitter is really not a very accurate way of judging public opinion.

It’s handy for news and transport updates, but I think it’s not a great place to judge the mood of the nation.

The vast majority of people avoid discussing politics on social media - hence you tend to get the extremes on both sides of the argument as opposed to a more realistic view.

I wouldn’t get too exercised by what you read there.

I think that is normally wise advice that I would give myself, but Brexit, like many other "culture war" issues, was pretty finely balanced, and moderates should try to corral those on the extremes of their position as much as they can to avoid doing damage.

 

[berneyarms]

I think that is normally wise advice that I would give myself, but Brexit, like many other "culture war" issues, was pretty finely balanced, and moderates should try to corral those on the extremes of their position as much as they can to avoid doing damage.

Personally I find ignoring them is the best policy.

Example a rather right wing professor in University College Dublin who is anti-vaccine and anti-every other public health measure put herself forward as a candidate in a recent Irish parliamentary by-election. She wasn't allowed into the election count as she refused to wear a mask. She then proceeded to berate the Garda sergeant on duty at the count, live-streaming the events, and claimed blue bloody murder, whilst at one point claiming that she had more social media followers than all the "mainstream" Irish political parties put together.

She ended up with 169 votes (plus the Garda sergeant (who had the patience of Job and is due a medal for putting up with her) observed that she didn't have as many followers though as David Beckham!).

My point being is that the extremes on Twitter are best left ignored because they aren't the views of the majority of reasonable people. Giving them the oxygen of publicity just eggs them on more.

Incidentally, I do say that as someone who does not like seeing my own national flag, the Irish tricolour, being paraded around by terrorists, former terrorists, or any political party (the extreme right are using it here too) for their own political purposes. It is something to respect.

 

[alex397]

There’s a huge difference between displaying the flag of the country you are in, and then using the flag as part of a culture war which is what the Tories are clearly doing.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

On the matter of diferent flags being flown in countries, some of the southern states in the "good old US of A" still harbour aspirations of pre-1861 times and the Confederate flag is still alive and kicking, having received backing from the top when "The Orange One" was President.

 

[najaB]

On the matter of diferent flags being flown in countries, some of the southern states in the "good old US of A" still harbour aspirations of pre-1861 times and the Confederate flag is still alive and kicking, having received backing from the top when "The Orange One" was President.

Possibly pedantic, but very few people fly the actual Confederate flag. The "Confederate Flag" that most people fly is actually the Confederate Battle Flag - effectively the same as the Royal Navy Ensign is to the United Kingdom.

The Confederacy went through several different flag designs during its short existence. The first official one one lasted slightly longer than the second (the number of stars increased as more states joined):

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

To return back to this side of the pond, I just realised that sections in Ulster still think "The future's bright, the future's Orange", but both the Union flag and that of the Netherlands (home to the House of Orange) have exactly the same three colours of red, white and blue in their design albeit in different layouts.

 

[AlterEgo]

There’s a huge difference between displaying the flag of the country you are in, and then using the flag as part of a culture war which is what the Tories are clearly doing.

Could you give some examples of how the flag is being used as part of a culture war?

 

[bspahh]

Could you give some examples of how the flag is being used as part of a culture war?

https://metro.co.uk/2021/03/23/tory...-union-jacks-in-their-annual-report-14292472/ has the title

Tory MP asked BBC chief why there were no union jacks in their annual report​

Number of union flags in the 64 page Conservative party manifesto for the 2019 election: 0

Our Plan

This is our plan for a stronger Britain.

www.conservatives.com

 

[AlterEgo]

https://metro.co.uk/2021/03/23/tory...-union-jacks-in-their-annual-report-14292472/ has the title


Number of union flags in the 64 page Conservative party manifesto for the 2019 election: 0

Our Plan

This is our plan for a stronger Britain.

www.conservatives.com

If the best we can do is one backbench MP asking a stupid question I’m not especially convinced.

 

[najaB]

Could you give some examples of how the flag is being used as part of a culture war?

Well, the whole "last night of the Proms" fiasco of a few years back probably counts as well. Traditional to sing Rule Britannia while waving the Union Flag is it not?

 

[jon0844]

Well quite; there is no problem.

I trust we will hear no further quibble from staunch Remainers about Union Flags on government buildings or projects, which has served only to irredeemably damage the cause of Remain.

I voted Remain and am more annoyed about the intellectual dishonesty of my own “side” than the other. At least Tory dishonesty and malpractice is being taken apart bit by bit in this thread.

Government buildings and projects are ideal places to fly the Union flag.. I doubt many people would have any issue with it.

It's more the relatively recent decision by people in power to drape themselves in union flags, have loads of them behind them in video calls, and suggesting those who don't fly one are not patriots and should leave the country.

If you look on social media, chances are people with very right-wing views will be including the union jack flag, England flag and very possibly also some link to MAGA and/or Trump.

I don't have a union flag in my profiles, but I'm very proud to be English, British and European. I show my loyalty and respect through my actions, not an emoji.

 

[bspahh]

If the best we can do is one backbench MP asking a stupid question I’m not especially convinced.

Do you want more? How about James Wild https://twitter.com/jamesowild/status/1374052717841223683
Lia Nici https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...-and-queen-or-move-to-another-country-259313/ Oliver Dowden https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...g-bbc-presenters-union-jack-flag-b926718.html Jamie Wallis https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...llis-fumes-lack-union-flags-welsh-parliament/

 

[Annetts key]

The liberal soft middle and left abandoned the Union Flag long ago and decided it was a far right symbol, nobody else.

Again, I don’t think that is representative. There are plenty of people on the left that are proud of our country and who don’t have a problem with the union flag. I suspect it’s the same with some in the centre ground as well.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Again, I don’t think that is representative. There are plenty of people on the left that are proud of our country and who don’t have a problem with the union flag. I suspect it’s the same with some in the centre ground as well.

Glad to see this posting from you, which does reflect the same view of many people that I know.

 

[REVUpminster]

A change in flag use caused by Scottish and Welsh governments is at Football. When England played in 1966 the fans waved Union flags, they now wave English flags.

 

[Geezertronic]

Nothing against of any flags providing they are not for political scoring or pound shop patriotism.

"Pound shop patriotism" as you put it seems to happen every year or two with the England flag being flown particularly when there is a football tournament on. I am sure other countries flags are sold & flown depending on the tournament or even depending on the political appetite at the time. People seem to make a lot more than a pound as a result of it, particularly with those stupid flags that get flown from car windows (I say that having had my car been hit by a few that have come loose). They are not made to last either

 

[nlogax]

A change in flag use caused by Scottish and Welsh governments is at Football. When England played in 1966 the fans waved Union flags, they now wave English flags.

Er, no.

 

[REVUpminster]

Er, no.

No they didn't wave Union flags then, no they don't wave English flags now? Ambiguous reply does not help.

 

[nlogax]

No they didn't wave Union flags then, no they don't wave English flags now? Ambiguous reply does not help.

I appreciate it doesn't help your nonsensical comment so I'll elaborate.

Devolved governments have not lead to different flags being waved at football matches. If anything you've got it completely backwards.

 

[najaB]

A change in flag use caused by Scottish and Welsh governments is at Football. When England played in 1966 the fans waved Union flags, they now wave English flags.

That has not been "caused by Scottish and Welsh governments". When last I checked neither the Scottish nor the Welsh government had any say over what flags were displayed by Scottish or Welsh fans, never mind over what flag England supporters choose to display!

 

[REVUpminster]

That has not been "caused by Scottish and Welsh governments". When last I checked neither the Scottish nor the Welsh government had any say over what flags were displayed by Scottish or Welsh fans, never mind over what flag England supporters choose to display!

Can you deny England supporters wave the English flag whereas they used to wave the Union flag. Is it because Scottish and Welsh nationalism is pushed at the English more than ever?