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Brexit matters

21C101

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And what exactly was stopping us exporting to 6.5 billion people, while we were in the EU?

Perhaps we just had not much to sell , as other EU countries export far more that UK?
We do export rather a lot to the rest of the world. It is the EU we have a trade deficit with.

However as we have to comply with EU rules for domestic products that often makes them too expensive to be competitive in exports to rest of the world.

That will start to change soon.
 
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GusB

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A Scottish shellfish firm has warned it is on the brink of bankruptcy as delays continue at ports following the introduction of post-Brexit red tape.
Lochfyne Langoustines managing director Jamie McMillan said his firm had already lost some consignments after they were found to be rotten by the time they arrived in France.
He also warned EU customers were now going to Denmark to buy langoustines.
Mr McMillan described it as a "very, very serious situation".
His comments came after transport company DFDS announced a further delay in exports of group consignments of seafood to the EU.
It halted groupage exports last week after delays in getting new paperwork for EU border posts in France.
DFDS said it would not resume those exports until Monday.
Mr McMillan told BBC Radio's Good Morning Scotland programme: "We've been screaming for the last six months - eight months - that we have to get our produce to market within 12 to 24 hours.
"Any delays in that process, our shellfish will arrive in France dead.
"We lost two pallets last week. It took five days to arrive in Boulogne from Scotland, so our goods were rotten on arrival."

Transport company DFDS has said it will not resume groupage exports until Monday
He added: "Customers are not buying from us any more - we have become unreliable suppliers.
"Everybody has stopped buying. This has happened for the past two weeks. We can't continue this to happen for another week because we will be out of business.
"We have had no sales to the EU, our biggest market for live shellfish, in the last two weeks.
"If we go another week without that, we are finished."
Mr McMillan said there were "sticking points" in both the UK and France, with transportation hubs in Scotland struggling with increased paperwork and checks by vets.

"There are sticking points down in France as well," he said.
"There are delays at the borders in France for up to 30 hours, I'm hearing, to clear customs by the time they do all their checks."
The UK government's Scotland Office minister David Duguid said he did not underestimate the struggles the industry was facing with paperwork, IT and ports.
He said the UK and Scottish governments, fish exporters and the EU needed to come together to work through the issues, which he estimated would last "weeks" and not months.

'Piece of string'​

He told Good Morning Scotland: "What I can commit to is that the UK government, whether that's through Defra or the Scotland Office, we are working day and night in resolving the issues that we know about and that we can fix directly.
"The other issues that are maybe the responsibility of the Scottish government, or indeed the EU on the other side of the channel, Defra are engaging heavily with those parties as well."
However, when asked directly on the programme how long the problems would last, Mr Duguid responded: "How long is a piece of string?"
But it's okay, because it's only a tiny proportion of UK GDP. Never mind that that tiny proportion is likely to make up a rather large proportion of the local economies which will suffer as a result.
 

21C101

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But it's okay, because it's only a tiny proportion of UK GDP. Never mind that that tiny proportion is likely to make up a rather large proportion of the local economies which will suffer as a result.
Didn't seem to bother the Pro Europeans after 1973 that the fishing industry was wrecked and fiahermen were literally paid to burn their boats as a consequence of joining.

Now they find a little temporary disruption while evreryone gets used to new paperwork to be the end of the world.
 

najaB

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Didn't seem to bother the Pro Europeans after 1973 that the fishing industry was wrecked and fiahermen were literally paid to burn their boats as a consequence of joining.
In the 1800's it was said you could walk to America on the back of the shoals of cod and never get your feet wet. By the 1970s, stock had declined to the point that there was a good chance they would become functionally extinct.

Other species had similar declines.

What do we suppose would have have happened by now if those boats hadn't been removed from the fleet?

It's trendy to blame the EU for the decline in fishing fleets but it's simple maths that you can't take fish faster than the replacement rate indefinitely.
 

Journeyman

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Didn't seem to bother the Pro Europeans after 1973 that the fishing industry was wrecked and fiahermen were literally paid to burn their boats as a consequence of joining.

Now they find a little temporary disruption while evreryone gets used to new paperwork to be the end of the world.
So if you're angry with Remainers for damage caused in 1973, you'll understand why I'm angry at Brexiteers for causing damage in 2021. Damage that is entirely self-inflicted and entirely unnecessary.
 

class ep-09

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We do export rather a lot to the rest of the world. It is the EU we have a trade deficit with.

And how are you proposing to address that deficit ?
Cutting “red tape” perhaps?

BoJo with his “deal” just introduced tonnes of new red tape , plus EU won’t accept products of lower standards.
EU simply would put tariffs up , and that what the deal BoJo signed.

However as we have to comply with EU rules for domestic products that often makes them too expensive to be competitive in exports to rest of the world.

And how are you going to make us more competitive with China , Indie etc?

If you remove workers regulations, which according to the press today is a plan, EU will slap tariffs .

You know full well, you brexiters screwed the country for the “sunny uplands” you are just afraid to lose your face and admit it.

That will start to change soon.

We do export rather a lot to the rest of the world. It is the EU we have a trade deficit with.

However as we have to comply with EU rules for domestic products that often makes them too expensive to be competitive in exports to rest of the world.

That will start to change soon.


And how are you proposing to address that deficit ?
Cutting “red tape” perhaps?

BoJo with his “deal” just introduced tonnes of new red tape , plus EU won’t accept products of lower standards.
EU simply would put tariffs up , and that what the deal BoJo signed.

However as we have to comply with EU rules for domestic products that often makes them too expensive to be competitive in exports to rest of the world.

And how are you going to make us more competitive with China , Indie etc?

If you remove workers regulations, which according to the press today is a plan, EU will slap tariffs .

You know full well, you brexiters screwed the country for the “sunny uplands” you are just afraid to lose your face and admit it.
 
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21C101

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Maybe we should start a thread on the restoration of the Jacobean pretender to the throne, this thread seems be heading off down that rabbit hole. Long Live the King across the water......

Anyway I'm off, you can only bang your head against the wall for so long. It is done, it won't be undone and thats that.
 

edwin_m

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It seems even EU-made goods passing distributed via the UK to another EU country may be liable to tariffs.

Rules of origin: Why are Percy Pigs a headache for M&S? - BBC News
The sweets are manufactured and packaged in Germany and then shipped to the UK - no tariffs are payable because of the trade deal.

They are then taken from the M&S warehouses and exported to stores in the Republic of Ireland, which is part of the EU.
...
Because they have left the EU and not been processed enough to count as being made in the UK, it may be that a tariff needs to be paid to get them back into the EU, despite them having been made in the EU in the first place.
If they had been unpacked and put on a cupcake, for example, there would be no tariff because they would have been transformed, but just storing them in the UK is not enough.
It's hard to see why this situation has emerged because it is not obviously in the interests of either the UK or the EU.
...
Anna Jerzewska, founder of the Trade and Borders consultancy, said: "This is a wonderful example of why you would want longer to negotiate a trade deal."
...
A government spokesman said: "Rules of origin are a standard feature in trade agreements globally and were developed in close consultation with trade associations, businesses and sector experts."
 

RT4038

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I agree it's done, but I hope that I live long enough to see the general population want it undone. Only time will tell.
On the basis of 'once in a generation' you may well do so. I've lived and voted in both European referendums, and the political and social landscape changed quite considerably (for good and bad) in the intermediate period. No doubt it will do so again.
 

Tester

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I came across this.....


.....which is a list (subject to updating) of the upsides and downsides of brexit. It uses the format of a sentence or two to describe each item, with a link in each case to supporting evidence.

Clearly such lists are subjective, and this one shows brexit in a negative light - so I wonder what a similar list would look like if produced in the same way to show brexit in a positive light.

Has anyone seen such a thing, or might someone supportive of brexit fancy producing one?

It would be very helpful to have a clear understanding of what the upsides and downsides of brexit really are.
 

nlogax

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It would be very helpful to have a clear understanding of what the upsides and downsides of brexit really are.

I had to laugh at the link. Out of three upsides, one was pretty tentative and another was ensuring a piece of British territory was more aligned to the EU and not less. Chuckle aside the downsides were well represented there. Meanwhile we've been looking for an exhaustive list of Brexit upsides for years. Not expecting that search to bear fruit any time soon.
 

Typhoon

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I came across this.....


.....which is a list (subject to updating) of the upsides and downsides of brexit. It uses the format of a sentence or two to describe each item, with a link in each case to supporting evidence.

Clearly such lists are subjective, and this one shows brexit in a negative light - so I wonder what a similar list would look like if produced in the same way to show brexit in a positive light.

Has anyone seen such a thing, or might someone supportive of brexit fancy producing one?

It would be very helpful to have a clear understanding of what the upsides and downsides of brexit really are.
For a start I think that there are a fair few Brexit voters who would put 28 in the other (pro) column.
28. EU family members of British citizens no longer have the automatic right to join them to live in the UK and now have to comply with entry criteria including income requirements.

I would also add to 40 the lorry park customs check facility being built at Guston, near Dover (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...rry-park-1-200-trucks-White-Cliffs-Dover.html. The headline (from the Daily Mail!) is
Diggers get to work on another Kent lorry park as they carve up farmland above White Cliffs of Dover for new facility that will hold 1,200 trucks and carry out post-Brexit customs checks
The MP, echoing the DfT regards it as a plus as it will bring employment to the area! About half a dozen, plus police officers to direct the traffic.
 

Dave1987

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First thing the BoJo Govt is considering doing is extending the working week to 48hrs a week. Also, entitlements to rest breaks, overtime and holiday pay are all under review. The race to the bottom for British workers has officially started! Did anyone expect anything less?? Apparently the Government has stated these reforms are not about "attacking workers rights" but about the UK doing things "differently". If the 48hr working week was to come in you would have to work 9.5 hrs per day to get two days off per week or work 6 days a week at 8hrs per day. Leisure and family time would definitely be a luxury.
 

class ep-09

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First thing the BoJo Govt is considering doing is extending the working week to 48hrs a week. Also, entitlements to rest breaks, overtime and holiday pay are all under review. The race to the bottom for British workers has officially started! Did anyone expect anything less?? Apparently the Government has stated these reforms are not about "attacking workers rights" but about the UK doing things "differently". If the 48hr working week was to come in you would have to work 9.5 hrs per day to get two days off per week or work 6 days a week at 8hrs per day. Leisure and family time would definitely be a luxury.


Hopefully , that will make people to unionise and fight tooth and nail .

That would be an ultimate karma for BoJo.
 

Dent

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First thing the BoJo Govt is considering doing is extending the working week to 48hrs a week. Also, entitlements to rest breaks, overtime and holiday pay are all under review. The race to the bottom for British workers has officially started! Did anyone expect anything less?? Apparently the Government has stated these reforms are not about "attacking workers rights" but about the UK doing things "differently". If the 48hr working week was to come in you would have to work 9.5 hrs per day to get two days off per week or work 6 days a week at 8hrs per day. Leisure and family time would definitely be a luxury.

What is the current working week limit? I thought it was already 48 hours, unless the employee opts out in which case they can work more?
 

Journeyman

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What is the current working week limit? I thought it was already 48 hours, unless the employee opts out in which case they can work more?
The norm, of course, is somewhere in the region of 37 to 40. It sounds to me like they're trying to extend the norm rather than the maximum.
 

Dent

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The norm, of course, is somewhere in the region of 37 to 40. It sounds to me like they're trying to extend the norm rather than the maximum.
The "norm" isn't up to the government anyway, it's up to employers and their negotiation with their employees.
 

edwin_m

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The "norm" isn't up to the government anyway, it's up to employers and their negotiation with their employees.
But removing the maximum will make it easier for some employers to push for more. It also means that there will be no requirement to record time worked. This opens up abuses such as paying an amount that would be less than the minimum wage per hour actually worked, and means that there would be no record to use in evidence if there was a fatigue-related accident.
 

Dent

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But removing the maximum will make it easier for some employers to push for more. It also means that there will be no requirement to record time worked. This opens up abuses such as paying an amount that would be less than the minimum wage per hour actually worked, and means that there would be no record to use in evidence if there was a fatigue-related accident.

Where did you get "removing the maximum" and "no requirement to record time worked" from? The statement related to "extending the working week to 48hrs a week", which I pointed out wouldn't be extending it as the maximum already is 48 hours.
 

edwin_m

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Where did you get "removing the maximum" and "no requirement to record time worked" from? The statement related to "extending the working week to 48hrs a week", which I pointed out wouldn't be extending it as the maximum already is 48 hours.
I think that's a misquote in #1395. Employers can extend the working week to 48hrs currently without the need for workers to opt out of the Working Time Directive, and can extend even longer in some weeks as long as they are offset by shorter weeks so the average stays within the limit. Removal of protection means that employers would have a right to extend average hours above 48.
 

Dave1987

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Apologies I did miss read the article, the Government is proposing to be able to extend the working week (there is only one reason they would want to do that!!) along with reviewing holiday pay, overtime and rest break entitlements. There is only one reason they would be doing this, so they can be cut and made worse. It’s most definitely a race to the bottom culture starting already. No doubt they will next start reviewing union rules and memberships so as to stop collective bargaining.
 

ainsworth74

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I'd be more suspicious of easing the requirements around rest breaks. You have a legal entitlement to a twenty minute break at work if you work for more than six hours and it has to be somewhere in the middle of the day not at the beginning or end and include being allowed to spend it away from your workstation/desk. You have to have eleven hours between working days and have to have twenty-four hours uninterrupted period without work each week or forty-eight hours every two weeks. Those are the sorts of things I'd be worried about them coming after. Small things that are more likely to get lost in the noise of daily life. Ditching the Working Time Directive wholesale or substantially increasing the maximum working week or say reducing holiday allowance from twenty-eight days are the sorts of things that would generate a lot of push back. Making it so that your employer can make you take your twenty minute break at the start or end of you shift? Less so.
 

najaB

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Does anyone else remember this thread where we were told that the very idea that the Government would touch worker's rights once we were out of the transition period was laughable?
 

Typhoon

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Unfortunately, this has come at exactly the right time for HMG. Distractions and fallback from Covid for some time to come, (I suspect) not a great deal of opposition from the government back benches, rising unemployment (next release: 26 Jan, break 5%?), general malaise and world-weariness. I suspect it will include aspects that previous posters (as well as workers up and down the land) deem unacceptable. They might roll back on the most controversial, citing 'we have listened' but keep other damaging proposals. I expect Johnson and Gove to be at their convincing best claiming that 'nasty' employers are promising to move elsewhere unless there are reforms to workers rights (with no evidence), we will have some rubbish about all pulling together to help the UK at its time of greatest need invoking 'the Dunkirk Spirit', that people want to work during their 'holiday' to help out to save their company. When the EU start saying that it might affect trade deals we will get a stack of anti-EU rhetoric about how the EU is 'interfering' with UK law. Sadly, too many will be taken in.

This is a once in a generation chance to revoke some of the rights workers have built up over the years. It might be slipped in to coincide with something like an upgrade to Minimum Wage (I know it isn't called that anymore but that is what it is).
Hopefully , that will make people to unionise and fight tooth and nail .
As someone who has maintained their union membership in retirement, I wish I thought that were true. Too many are in theory self-employed but in practice employed, and, I suspect. the number will increase with HMGs blessing.
I'd be more suspicious of easing the requirements around rest breaks. You have a legal entitlement to a twenty minute break at work if you work for more than six hours and it has to be somewhere in the middle of the day not at the beginning or end and include being allowed to spend it away from your workstation/desk. You have to have eleven hours between working days and have to have twenty-four hours uninterrupted period without work each week or forty-eight hours every two weeks. Those are the sorts of things I'd be worried about them coming after. Small things that are more likely to get lost in the noise of daily life. Ditching the Working Time Directive wholesale or substantially increasing the maximum working week or say reducing holiday allowance from twenty-eight days are the sorts of things that would generate a lot of push back. Making it so that your employer can make you take your twenty minute break at the start or end of you shift? Less so.
I'm surprised they haven't done anything about the time away from the workstation/ desk under the guise of preventing the virus spreading. Asking a worker to resume work in 'exceptional circumstances' follows. The 'work free' time I can see them trying to sell as what the British Worker wants. The high cost of housing (mortgage or rent) is pressing people to take second/ third job, HMG could sell the reduction of time away from the workplace as being a convenient alternative ('more and more people are opting out of the 48 hour week that we now feel it is redundant' or similar).

I don't trust them for a minute.
 

edwin_m

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I expect Johnson and Gove to be at their convincing best claiming that 'nasty' employers are promising to move elsewhere unless there are reforms to workers rights (with no evidence), we will have some rubbish about all pulling together to help the UK at its time of greatest need invoking 'the Dunkirk Spirit', that people want to work during their 'holiday' to help out to save their company. When the EU start saying that it might affect trade deals we will get a stack of anti-EU rhetoric about how the EU is 'interfering' with UK law. Sadly, too many will be taken in.
Probably into the EU because of Brexit-related loss of competitiveness in the UK.
 

Dave1987

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What I find be interesting is that there is no sudden ardent defence of these workers rights reviews from the ardent Brexiteers on here. Maybe there were a few porkies told by the Brexiteers regarding workers rights post Brexit.
 

Spamcan81

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Didn't seem to bother the Pro Europeans after 1973 that the fishing industry was wrecked and fiahermen were literally paid to burn their boats as a consequence of joining.

Now they find a little temporary disruption while evreryone gets used to new paperwork to be the end of the world.

You know very little about our fishing industry if you think that joining the EEC/EU was the main reason for the problems faced by the UK fishing industry. I suggest you need to research the effect the Cod Wars had on our fleet.
 

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