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Brexit matters

21C101

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The referendum was June 2016...

Why not compare to when you could get more than 2 dollars to the £ when UK was in EU?

The rate beforehand had various different factors affecting it. The overall drop since the referendum is attributed to the UK leaving the EU
I said before, not the day before. February 2016 is before the referendum. The current level is only a little over 5 cents below the immediate prereferendum value and rising steadily, ditto against the Euro prereferendum value, it wont be long before it overtakes both.
 
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najaB

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Why do people on this site love to quote a part of a sentence. The morons are firmly on the the EU side. My wife had her second jab early. It was programmed for 11 weeks but she was called up after 9 weeks. I'm sure this post will be selectively quoted.
Don't forget, that originally the second dose was supposed to be at four (?) weeks. But as others have noted, we are doing well with vaccinations the EU isn't. This is of almost zero import to anyone who doesn't want to engage in schadenfreude.
Biden will not be happy if he has to agree with trump.

It seems we paid for the Halix factory in the Netherlands that the EU want to take over.
Quoted to keep you happy.
Pound is also back above the dollar level it was at when the referendum was held and is climbing steadily against the euro.
No it's not,
I said before, not the day before. February 2016 is before the referendum.
It's significantly lower than it was in July 2014 - which was, you would agree, before the referendum.
The current level is only a little over 5 cents below the immediate prereferendum value and rising steadily, ditto against the Euro prereferendum value, it wont be long before it overtakes both.
It might, it might not. I don't suppose you're confident enough in that prediction to risk all of your savings and put a second mortgage on the house to invest in a futures scheme?
 

21C101

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From 1975, prophetic and still a wholly applicable rebuttal of the remainers fear based arguments.


Edit: At Mods Request, here is the text of the extract:

"Therefore, now what do they say? What is the message that comes now? No longer to tell the British people about the goodies that lie there. No longer that. That won’t wash – will it? Because the evidence will no longer support it.

So the message, the message that comes out is fear, fear, fear.

Fear because you won’t have any food.

Fear of unemployment.

Fear that we’ve somehow been so reduced as a country that we can no longer, as it were, totter about in the world independent as a nation.

And a constant attrition of our moral.

A constant attempt to tell us that what we have and what we had as not only our own achievements, but what generations of Englishman has helped us to achieve, is not worth a damn.

The kind of laughter that greeted the early references that I made that what was involved was the transfer of the whole of our democratic system. Not a damn!

Well, I tell you what we now have to face in Britain, what the whole argument is about. Now that the fraud and the promise has been exposed.

What it’s about is basically about the moral and the self-confidence of our people. We can shape our future. We are 55 million people. If you look around the world today, and you listen to Gough Whitlam and his 14 million Australians. He trades heavily with Japan – and I’m very fond of the Australians – but do you think that he’s going to enter into a relationship with Japan, which gives Japan the right to make the laws in Australia?

Do you think Canada, 22 million of them, and to the south a great and friendly nation – yes, they are – but do you think Canada is going to allow its laws to be written by the 200 million people in some union in America? No, no – of course not.

The whole thing is an absurdity! And therefore I urge you, I urge you to reject it. I urge you to say ‘No’ to this motion! And I urge the whole British country to say ‘No’ on Thursday in the referendum!"

The full 20 minute long speech is here:

 
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class ep-09

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From 1975, prophetic and still a wholly applicable rebuttal of the remainers fear based arguments.


Really desperate stuff .
You are obsessed with the EU and it is not very healthy for you .

For remainers , live has moved on , but you are still fighting the battle , that you have already won .
 

21C101

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Really desperate stuff .
You are obsessed with the EU and it is not very healthy for you .

For remainers , live has moved on , but you are still fighting the battle , that you have already won .
Have you read the Guardian, Observer, Independent or Lord Adonis' twitter feed lately?
 

Typhoon

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From 1975, prophetic and still a wholly applicable rebuttal of the remainers fear based arguments.

I am old enough to remember Peter Shore, perhaps the 'Jeremy Corbyn' of his time. Thank you for reminding me of his passionate oratory, he was of a time when there were excellent orators on all sides. He never achieved high office though, probably for good reasons.

Have you read the Guardian, Observer, Independent or Lord Adonis' twitter feed lately?
Ah, Lord Adonis! A reasonably efficient minister who would have been in the LibDems if he thought they could gain power. He appears to be a professional politician - we have too many of them. I don't follow Lord Adonis on twitter but looking at the feed, I wonder why he has nothing else to do. A suggestion that the presence of Boris Johnson in Belfast would influence the current disturbances shows someone with little grasp of the current situation, and his repeated responses to himself shows signs of someone desperate for attention. As to why he thinks pinning a video clip in which he compares the Brexit agreement with that of Munich without any form of evidence as though it is some masterstroke helps his cause - he really is out of touch. I would be looking for a more relevant bogey-man if I was you.
 

alex397

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Fear based arguments? Because of course Brexit campaigners never were involved in anything like that.... :rolleyes:
 

21C101

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I am old enough to remember Peter Shore, perhaps the 'Jeremy Corbyn' of his time. Thank you for reminding me of his passionate oratory, he was of a time when there were excellent orators on all sides. He never achieved high office though, probably for good reasons.


Ah, Lord Adonis! A reasonably efficient minister who would have been in the LibDems if he thought they could gain power. He appears to be a professional politician - we have too many of them. I don't follow Lord Adonis on twitter but looking at the feed, I wonder why he has nothing else to do. A suggestion that the presence of Boris Johnson in Belfast would influence the current disturbances shows someone with little grasp of the current situation, and his repeated responses to himself shows signs of someone desperate for attention. As to why he thinks pinning a video clip in which he compares the Brexit agreement with that of Munich without any form of evidence as though it is some masterstroke helps his cause - he really is out of touch. I would be looking for a more relevant bogey-man if I was you.
We do have him to thank for pushing through HS2. He was a good transport minister (a ministry where few shine). It is just a shame he dissapeared down a rabbit hole.

I agree on the oratory. We lack deep thinking and resulant oratory on both sides of the houst these days.
 

najaB

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From 1975, prophetic and still a wholly applicable rebuttal of the remainers fear based arguments.
Tell Scottish fishermen or those involved in catching shellfish in Category B waters that they're just experiencing a fear based loss of business.
 

REVUpminster

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From 1975, prophetic and still a wholly applicable rebuttal of the remainers fear based arguments.


Edit: At Mods Request, here is the text of the extract:



The full 20 minute long speech is here:

I presume Peter Shore's speech was for the remain or leave referendum of the day after Ted Heath and the Tories finally got us in with no referendum. I cannot remember if it was part of the Tory 1970 manifesto to seek entry to the EEC at the time and if a referendum was part of the 1974 Labour manifesto.

The early 1970's Britain had many cities like London still with WWll bombsites just starting to be redeveloped, 25 years after the end of the war. All through the 60's Harold Wilson's mantra was "export, export, export". The mantra even entered into TV drama programmes such as Danger Man. There was no internet, more newspapers and only three TV channels with some notable programmes such as the still going BBC Panorama and ITV had This Week and World in Action.
 

Beemax

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Interesting to hear Peter Shore's own version of 'Project Fear' when he talks about the UK having to accept laws made in other countries. 45 years later, the UK still had sovereignty in the following areas:

The constitution (still got the HoL and royal family)
Economic/monetary policy (still got the £)
Health
Crime/policing
Foreign Policy
Defence
Education
Housing
National transport
Planning
Social policy
Most environmental aspects
Culture

And even in areas where the EU had competency (such as certain aspects of H&S) we still had opt- outs.

Which doesn't really leave much, does it?
 

21C101

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I presume Peter Shore's speech was for the remain or leave referendum of the day after Ted Heath and the Tories finally got us in with no referendum. I cannot remember if it was part of the Tory 1970 manifesto to seek entry to the EEC at the time and if a referendum was part of the 1974 Labour manifesto.

The early 1970's Britain had many cities like London still with WWll bombsites just starting to be redeveloped, 25 years after the end of the war. All through the 60's Harold Wilson's mantra was "export, export, export". The mantra even entered into TV drama programmes such as Danger Man. There was no internet, more newspapers and only three TV channels with some notable programmes such as the still going BBC Panorama and ITV had This Week and World in Action.
It was an Oxford Union debate between him and Heath that (coincidentally according to Shore at the beginning of his full speech) was arranged before the referendum was called.

What would be interesting is how many of the current or previous cabinets were among the Oxford University students in attendance.
 

21C101

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Probably no one from the current cabinet, most of them were in nursery or primary school in 1975.
You know how to make a chap feel old

It's bad enough when policemen start looking too young to be in the job, never mind cabinet ministers.....
:)
 

VauxhallandI

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Waiting to see how this is the EU’s fault?

A trial of the Oxford-AstraZeneca Covid vaccine on children has stopped giving out jabs while the UK's medicines regulator investigates a possible link with rare blood clots in adults.
Prof Andrew Pollard from the University of Oxford told the BBC there were no safety concerns with the trial itself, but its scientists were waiting for further information.



 

najaB

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The denial is strong on the pro-Brexit side. Lance Forman via Twitter:
Lance Forman said:
I don't believe there will be a negative economic impact; but I also don't think we can measure the impact of 40 years of being in the EU with 3 months of being out. I have not taken away your rights. The EU have. I believe in free movement and free trade.
Source: https://twitter.com/LanceForman/status/1378405588158316551?s=20

So UK citizens lost freedom of movement and UK businesses lost free trade when we left the EU, yet somehow it's the EU's fault, not those who campaigned to leave?
 

jon0844

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I have to assume that people thought Brexit was about giving us the right to send foreigners home, but it never even crossed their minds that the EU would do that to us (I mean, we only voted for what we wanted the UK to do, not the EU). After all, foreigners in the UK are probably taking our jobs (and claiming benefits, because for some reason they always seem to be able to do both) but Brits living abroad are fine, upstanding citizens contributing to a foreign economy. They should be worshipped like Gods.

As such, how could a foreign country (like Spain) dare to get rid of us when they need us so much?

It's like they thought the agreement with the EU was so flexible that we could dictate different rules for us than them.
 

RT4038

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So UK citizens lost freedom of movement and UK businesses lost free trade when we left the EU, yet somehow it's the EU's fault, not those who campaigned to leave?
I have to assume that people thought Brexit was about giving us the right to send foreigners home, but it never even crossed their minds that the EU would do that to us (I mean, we only voted for what we wanted the UK to do, not the EU). After all, foreigners in the UK are probably taking our jobs (and claiming benefits, because for some reason they always seem to be able to do both) but Brits living abroad are fine, upstanding citizens contributing to a foreign economy. They should be worshipped like Gods.
Therefore, if the EU don't see it this way, it is their fault, obviously.
 

jon0844

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The irony is all we ever needed to do was change our own laws on how we allowed people in to work or claim benefits. No need to leave the EU, and therefore no need to rock the boat that is now seeing people in Spain, France, Italy etc have to move home.
 

najaB

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The irony is all we ever needed to do was change our own laws on how we allowed people in to work or claim benefits.
What?! That can't be so. EU law required us to give preferential treatment to EU migrants - guaranteed social housing for life the moment the set foot in the UK, and automatic benefits without having to take time off any of their three jobs to claim.

No?
 

RT4038

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The irony is all we ever needed to do was change our own laws on how we allowed people in to work or claim benefits. No need to leave the EU, and therefore no need to rock the boat that is now seeing people in Spain, France, Italy etc have to move home.
It is ironic, but in a way sums up the very essence of the issue - we could have changed our laws and practices to being more 'European', which may have alleviated some of the perceived issues, but likely exacerbated others. In terms of our Politics, some of the changes required would have been well nigh impossible to achieve.
 

Master Cutler

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It's interesting to see the continuing conjecture regarding the Brexit/No Brexit situation.
I voted to stay in, but totally support the result of the vote to leave.
However, the problems we now face are mainly of our own making.
An example is the customs requirements for shipping goods into and out of the EU.
Many years ago I used to ship EU goods into and out of Switzerland by road through Germany from the U.K.
Some of the goods I carried were for trials only with zero commercial value for return in my vehicle to the U.K. while others were to be exported for full value into Switzerland.
On the face of it what seems like a complicated arrangement, but not so, as I used the resources of the Chamer of Commerce to ensure all of the correct paperwork accompanied the goods before I departed for the trip.
We now face the same type of shipping problems but with the whole of the EU.
Prior to January 2021 UK business was constantly reminded to address the new paperwork requirements to avoid any border delays.
All of the information was in place to do this, but for some reason this didn't' always happen, resulting in many delays and shipment rejections.
Brexit will only work if we have a complete change of mind set and start treating the EU as a different country instead of an ex trading partner.
 

jon0844

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It is ironic, but in a way sums up the very essence of the issue - we could have changed our laws and practices to being more 'European', which may have alleviated some of the perceived issues, but likely exacerbated others. In terms of our Politics, some of the changes required would have been well nigh impossible to achieve.

I am pretty sure we have always been in control of our benefits system, irrespective of the fact that most people coming were actually getting jobs and paying taxes. Now we can see that most of them weren't taking away a job from a UK citizen, as they don't want those jobs that are now vacant and going to cause us all sorts of problems going forward.

The illegal immigration a lot of people were really against wasn't anything to do with the EU. We were, and still are, pretty useless at protecting our borders. Now it isn't just the issue of people arriving in dinghies or the back of lorries (often organised by UK citizens) but how we protected our nation during a pandemic.
 

najaB

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Prior to January 2021 UK business was constantly reminded to address the new paperwork requirements to avoid any border delays.
Difficult for them to do when it wasn't made entirely clear what paperwork would be needed until December 24th 2020.
 

Master Cutler

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Difficult for them to do when it wasn't made entirely clear what paperwork would be needed until December 24th 2020.
To some extent I agree with you, but we already have the likes of GOST to guide us on requirements.
All exporters should also be fully familiar with the international Incoterms. .

Which certificate to choose: GOST/EAC/TR CU?

Previously on the territory of CIS acted the GOST system which had been replaced the EAC certification system based on Technical Regulations of the Customs union (starting from 2010). And now more than 90% of goods on the territory of Russia and Custom Union need to be certified or declared according to the Technical Regulations of Eurasian Economic Union (TR EAEU).

However, some of the national GOSTs for certain types of products still remain effective because of the necessity to regulate and control the quality of the products which still have no harmonized requirements.
The Incoterms or International Commercial Terms are a series of pre-defined commercial terms published by the International Chamber of Commerce relating to international commercial law.
 

RT4038

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I am pretty sure we have always been in control of our benefits system, irrespective of the fact that most people coming were actually getting jobs and paying taxes. Now we can see that most of them weren't taking away a job from a UK citizen, as they don't want those jobs that are now vacant and going to cause us all sorts of problems going forward.

The illegal immigration a lot of people were really against wasn't anything to do with the EU. We were, and still are, pretty useless at protecting our borders. Now it isn't just the issue of people arriving in dinghies or the back of lorries (often organised by UK citizens) but how we protected our nation during a pandemic.
We have always been in control of our benefits (and health) system. However, our systems are based on entitlement criteria [which EU law prohibits discrimination between EU nationalities], rather than state backed pseudo insurance systems where credits have to be built up in order to claim, restricting or eliminating new immigrant cover as they haven't built up the necessary credits. The UK could have changed to a 'European' pseudo insurance model, but I suspect that would have been politically well nigh impossible, due to the fear of some that this would be US style private insurance cover being brought in by the back door.

Benefits are not just for unemployment - stories of child benefits being paid for children still resident in their home (EU) country. Would never have happened if there had been a 'European' style pseudo insurance scheme in place.
These jobs you are talking about will either have to be exported to the EU (evidence that some warehouse jobs are moving already), mechanised, activity eliminated, performed by controlled immigrants or paid rates that those in the UK are happy to do the jobs for. The main 'crisis' is that some things are likely going to cost more.

I think it was more complicated than illegal immigrants - there are many places where there are considerable numbers of EU immigrant workers which have changed society there, which did not go down well with many of the existing residents. School system creaking because of large numbers of non-Engish speaking pupils etc. There are arguments that this is a good or bad thing (or both), but is a contributory factor.
 

notlob.divad

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To some extent I agree with you, but we already have the likes of GOST to guide us on requirements.
All exporters should also be fully familiar with the international Incoterms. .
Which is absolutely fine for people and companies who already did business outside the EU. However there are a vast array of SMEs that have set up over the years that have only ever dealt with sales inside the common market.
 

class ep-09

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It's interesting to see the continuing conjecture regarding the Brexit/No Brexit situation.
I voted to stay in, but totally support the result of the vote to leave.
However, the problems we now face are mainly of our own making.
An example is the customs requirements for shipping goods into and out of the EU.
Many years ago I used to ship EU goods into and out of Switzerland by road through Germany from the U.K.
Some of the goods I carried were for trials only with zero commercial value for return in my vehicle to the U.K. while others were to be exported for full value into Switzerland.
On the face of it what seems like a complicated arrangement, but not so, as I used the resources of the Chamer of Commerce to ensure all of the correct paperwork accompanied the goods before I departed for the trip.
We now face the same type of shipping problems but with the whole of the EU.
Prior to January 2021 UK business was constantly reminded to address the new paperwork requirements to avoid any border delays.
All of the information was in place to do this, but for some reason this didn't' always happen, resulting in many delays and shipment rejections.
Brexit will only work if we have a complete change of mind set and start treating the EU as a different country instead of an ex trading partner.


It is wrong to think that there is "one" set of paperwork to export goods to the EU .

We are third country now and if any export is send to a country in the SM from the UK , UK's exporter must fill / get paperwork relevant to THAT country .
Other words if you export to Germany , France ore Italy you need 3 sets of papers relevant to each country as each have different requirements .

Show me any exporter that was " ready" for that .
 

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