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Bridge strike at Plymouth (30/08)

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507020

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It will never be justified to maintain the line above the speed of the local train, given this type of event happens less than 2 times a year on average. A slow trundle over a bridge takes a total of 3-5 minutes. Going via okehampton would add on a minimum of 15-20 minutes just in reversals, let alone the additional time for going the long way round.
But if the speed of this train is 75 or 90mph with several stops, a train on diversion could run at that speed non-stop.
Smart motorways also include Variable Speed Limit-only and Dynamic Hard Shoulder, not just All Lane Running Sections. The VSL in particular is very effective at mitigating congestion and preventing stationary queues. DHS is of variable quality but by and large works well. I agree ALR is a false economy.
Stationary queues are the main characteristic of motorway running. Without them, can you even still call it a motorway? How much has all this “smart” equipment cost the taxpayer compared to just widening to 4 lanes + hard shoulder throughout?
Where (and how) would a more complicated junction layout have permitted a better service to be offered in this incident?
Cowley Bridge, Coleford, Bere Alston, St Budeaux.
 
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Horizon22

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No it doesn't - the space for coaches at Totnes is extremely limited and it's not much better at Exeter St Davids. Exeter is also harder to manage for rail replacement because it is so much busier.

Tiverton is a much better proposition as it's immediately next to the M5 and provides the best overall journey time - having to battle your way through the Exeter traffic can add up to an hour in journey time and adding journey time reduces the number of coaches available and thus capacity.

But you'd be inconveniencing all the Exeter SD, Newton Abbot and Totnes passengers unnecessarily. Besides 1tph can now run down towards Plymouth, which are normally the xx04 departures from Paddington, so platform occupancy is not as bad as first feared. Plus there's a turning circle at Totnes, so its not that bad.
 

richw

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Slightly different scenario here though - there was no standby around. I'm almost certain that yesterday if it was the same situation as yesterday you'd have been sent to Plymouth.
It’s exactly the same scenario. No trains able to run
 

zwk500

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But if the speed of this train is 75 or 90mph with several stops, a train on diversion could run at that speed non-stop.
Only if the stopper isn't in front of it.
Stationary queues are the main characteristic of motorway running. Without them, can you even still call it a motorway? How much has all this “smart” equipment cost the taxpayer compared to just widening to 4 lanes + hard shoulder throughout?
No the main characteristic of motorway running is unobstructed flow on the main carriageway. This is not the thread to go into Smart motorways, but suffice to say putting up gantries is far, far cheaper (and better value) to the taxpayer than buying the additional land, moving the required earth and rebuilding the bridges to widen the road.
Cowley Bridge, Coleford, Bere Alston, St Budeaux.
Can you answer the 2nd part of the question?
 

northernbelle

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But you'd be inconveniencing all the Exeter SD, Newton Abbot and Totnes passengers unnecessarily. Besides 1tph can now run down towards Plymouth, which are normally the xx04 departures from Paddington, so platform occupancy is not as bad as first feared.
I'm not suggesting terminating trains at Tiverton - it makes sense to run through where possible. But if a coach has to be provided to 'bridge the gap' it's better for the coach to run from Tiverton to Plymouth as it's quicker and can be more easily provided for the masses. This keeps Exeter, Newton Abbot and Totnes as un-pressured as possible and gives passengers using those stations a far better chance of making their journey.

It sounds like the GWR Paddington services will be running through, with XC terminating short for onward coaches or trains where available.
 

Horizon22

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I'm not suggesting terminating trains at Tiverton - it makes sense to run through where possible. But if a coach has to be provided to 'bridge the gap' it's better for the coach to run from Tiverton to Plymouth as it's quicker and can be more easily provided for the masses. This keeps Exeter, Newton Abbot and Totnes as un-pressured as possible and gives passengers using those stations a far better chance of making their journey.

It sounds like the GWR Paddington services will be running through, with XC terminating short for onward coaches or trains where available.

You were earlier suggesting that - at that point it was unknown whether anything was going to be run at all for several days. As it is, one line is now open so it isn't required.

These aren't small stations that you'd be considering terminating short at plus you'd need additional coaches to transport passengers to those extra stations. As I said, Totnes isn't absolutely dire for replacement transport anbd I think it's preferable to keep people on the train as far as practical.
How much Rail replacement contract management experience do you have?

I have some but it is admittedly limited. But given the pressure of the situation and how much GWR and XC were desperately trying to find (and were indeed sharing each other's contacts), anything bigger than a car anywhere in the Devon area on a Bank Holiday Monday, I'm pretty confident in my suggestions that whatever was available would have been moved to help passengers get moving. I can't speak to what happened at other times.
 

Grumpy Git

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I just wonder if the driver saw the height signs, but from his perspective thought the "hole" looked big enough, (i.e. they were not bright enough to realise the incline of the road would see them hit it)?

I also wonder if it might be a good move to completely standardise the height signs in metric? They may have read the first sign as "metres" and thought they had plenty of room, not everyone has a good grasp of measurements? In some respects maybe like the recent level crossing collision where less signage may be better?
 

richw

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How much Rail replacement contract management experience do you have?
It’s clear he has no awareness of procurement policy at GWR. His suggestion is a blanket not allowed. Can’t just go procuring anyone or everyone Willy nilly. It needs to go through Official channels in all circumstances or the provider won’t get paid!
 

zwk500

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I just wonder if the driver saw the height signs, but from his perspective thought the "hole" looked big enough, (i.e. they were not bright enough to realise the incline of the road would see them hit it)?

I also wonder if it might be a good move to completely standardise the height signs in metric? They may have read the first sign as "metres" and thought they had plenty of room, not everyone has a good grasp of measurements? In some respects maybe like the recent level crossing collision where less signage may be better?
It would be a good idea to standardise measurements, but both signs are clearly marked with their respective units. On a related note, having had a look around google maps it does appear that the restriction isn't clearly signed until you can actually see the bridge, maybe somebody more local can comment? It might be an idea to make sure that the restriction is clearly signed on adjacent roads and the diversionary route equally clearly marked.
 

EbbwJunction1

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I can't comment on the wider aspect of this, because i don't have the knowledge to do so.

However, I can comment on what actually happened to me and others, so here goes:
From Mumbai ?
Possibly, I don't know - but he definitely wasn't local.

Thanks. It's always interesting to hear from someone on the spot and directly affected.

I always thought that whilst local staff would arrange onward transport for individual stranded passengers a major incident like this would be managed by Control in Swindon (or wherever they're located).
Whilst it might have been the responsibility of Control, he was definitely trying to help, but couldn't do so because there were no resources that he could call upon.
Blame the fragmentation brought about by privatisation. In BR days there would be one person totally in overall charge
Yes, I remember reading the memoirs of a retired Area Manager at Exeter. In his day his Plymouth colleague would have taken control of the incident, I'm sure.

That's as might be, but you always have to have "boots on the ground" to liaise with the people wanting to be transported. In this case, it was the chap at Totnes, and he did what he could.
Every experience I have had of the GWR helpline has confirmed that it is worse than useless. Such helplines must be staffed by people who know the area and are authorised to make decisions - not just parrot “corporate speak script”

Agreed.
He wouldn’t have been doing this. Station staff have to go through control at Swindon.

There is. That person happens to be at a Control centre not near the incident. Why would you have trained senior colleagues all over the place when you never know where the next severe incident is going to take place? There are still local teams at all locations (with a local Control team at the biggest hubs like Exeter for instance). Local teams will still try and arrange publci transport where they can, but a Control centre will also have the direct line to the replacement transport hub - in this case First Travel Solutions - to make strategic & operational decisions. Unfortunately when you're told availability is severely limited (and indeed the poster who was stuck at Totnes has confirmed it) you cannot magic up replacement vehicles.



He might have been. At this point it was basically trying anyone local to source anything.

Well, I can assure you that he was doing his best to help but, as I say, there wasn't much that he could do for a number of reasons. What would you have had him do ... what he did, or to say "Nothing I can do, mate, it's the responsibility of XXX in Control" ... and when the question "Where is he?" was asked (as it would have been) say "In Swindon"? That would only have made things much worse.
Depends how one looks at it. You still have large numbers of essential workers to get to/from work. Without rail you could get them there by road, but this would become unviable if everyone else was trying to get places as well - which wasn’t happening at times like the March 2020 lockdown. In turn the lockdown was only possible with billions worth of government subsidy in the form of furlough and business grants.

In short I’m not sure things could tick over without the railway, especially in the London area.

Well, even though I was on holiday yesterday, I had to get back to work this morning. This is because I'm now off for another couple of days (pre-arranged), and I had to make sure that everything was up to date before I left at lunch time. Had I had to stay in Totnes last night, goodness knows what time I'd have got home this morning, as I couldn't forecast what the situation would be today.
He might have been doing taxis. Definitely not doing coaches.

No definitely not, taxis is what I meant.

He could have been, he probably had instructions to do what he could, and if his uncle John has a PCV then get on with it mate.

Well, all I can say is what he told me that he was doing - and had been doing since 4.00pm. For what it's worth, he was right.
They don’t have authority even at the worst times. I was on standby for a branch line the day the IETs were completely pulled (April?). No trains for 6 hours yet he didn’t have authority to use me on the main line as I was hired for the branch. I didn’t move an inch for the entire 12 hour standby shift

I can't comment on this.

No it doesn't - the space for coaches at Totnes is extremely limited and it's not much better at Exeter St Davids. Exeter is also harder to manage for rail replacement because it is so much busier.

Tiverton is a much better proposition as it's immediately next to the M5 and provides the best overall journey time - having to battle your way through the Exeter traffic can add up to an hour in journey time and adding journey time reduces the number of coaches available and thus capacity.

Yes, even as a non-driver (but someone who's had quite a bit of experience in moving coaches round in car parks), I can see that it's rather difficult to do that in either of the two car parks at Totnes.



No. He really couldn't.

But he did - and was right to do so
 

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Does anyone know what is shown on Satnav? (N.B. I have never used a Satnav, or even seen one used, so I don’t know what information they give.)
 

zwk500

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Does anyone know what is shown on Satnav? (N.B. I have never used a Satnav, or even seen one used, so I don’t know what information they give.)
It will vary from system to system depending on the algorithm and settings. I can easily see Google maps sending people this route as it will often direct people to ratruns if it's faster, even by a minute. However the driver should a) Be looking at the road and exercising his judgement regardless and b) be using a system appropriate to his vehicle (many systems now will account for vehicle height and width).
 

Horizon22

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It’s clear he has no awareness of procurement policy at GWR. His suggestion is a blanket not allowed. Can’t just go procuring anyone or everyone Willy nilly. It needs to go through Official channels in all circumstances or the provider won’t get paid!

I didn't suggest that. What I did say is that people would be trying as many approaches as possible, some of which may be borderline but frankly when you've got hundreds of passengers stranded, you look for any options you can. GWR has an agreed alternative replacement (First Travel Solutions) however in busy times where the people who normally arrange are doing other things, then local teams can help out. Taxis can definitely be arranged via local teams (through the agreed supplier). The agreed supplier in this case had limited to no availability, so it didn't really matter anyway.

When I say locals staff helping it might be simply suggesting that they can try and get whatever taxis available to the station. Many TOCs allow people to claim back the cost, but I will agree that is in no way guaranteed and staff shouldn't give guarantees to any passengers that might wish to do this.
 
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Grumpy Git

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Having had a look at the same approach on Google maps streetview, I really cannot fathom how the driver, even for one millisecond, thought he could get that bleeding great truck under there?
 

DelW

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They've managed to move the lorry.

View attachment 101987


Quite impressive damage to the bridge.
Fortunately, it looks as though the main arch barrel is probably undamaged, the spandrel wall and its supporting arch course have been pushed away from it sideways.

I suspect that no rail traffic will be allowed on the track adjacent to that parapet until it has been rebuilt. I'd also suspect that the rebuilding will require the other track to be closed during the works.

It's not dissimilar to the damage at the Nine Elms viaduct a few months ago, although obviously a different cause. At least this is over a more limited length.
 

richw

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I didn't suggest that. What I did say is that people would be trying as many approaches as possible, some of which may be borderline but frankly when you've got hundreds of passengers stranded, you look for any options you can. GWR has an agreed alternative replacement (First Travel Solutions) however in busy times where the people who normally arrange are doing other things, then local teams can help out. Taxis can definitely be arranged via local teams (through the agreed supplier). The agreed supplier in this case had limited to no availability, so it didn't really matter anyway.
All the station staff can do is repeatedly pester FTS. He could enquire if company X has availability but if that company isn’t on the FTS approved system FTS will almost certainly decline it.
 

Horizon22

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All the station staff can do is repeatedly pester FTS. He could enquire if company X has availability but if that company isn’t on the FTS approved system FTS will almost certainly decline it.
Indeed. It's quite a extensive reach FTS does have though. But we're talking rather hypothetically here because it seems various staff (whether local station staff or at control in Swindon) were being told "sorry there's nobody available". That's why CSL2 Black (DO NOT TRAVEL) was declared (as unhelpful as that is to people trying to return home after a BH weekend). Even if staff had gone "off the books", I don't think the outcome would have been any different.
 

Revilo

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I just wonder if the driver saw the height signs, but from his perspective thought the "hole" looked big enough, (i.e. they were not bright enough to realise the incline of the road would see them hit it)?

I also wonder if it might be a good move to completely standardise the height signs in metric? They may have read the first sign as "metres" and thought they had plenty of room, not everyone has a good grasp of measurements? In some respects maybe like the recent level crossing collision where less signage may be better?

If anything they should standardise it to imperial, given that most generally measure their own height in feet, and imperial measurements are easier for people to relate to eg 1 foot is similar to an actual foot.
 

Grecian 1998

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The normal rule of thumb when Exeter - Plymouth is closed is to encourage passengers for Plymouth and beyond to change at Tiverton Parkway for a non-stop bus for the reason mentioned upthread - it's right by the M5 and allows the fastest onward journey. This was the standard approach in 2014 when the Dawlish sea wall was being rebuilt.

Passengers for intermediate stations are normally advised to stay onboard until the train terminates at Exeter - it's only Plymouth and Cornwall passengers who are advised to leave at TVP. Passengers for Plymouth and Cornwall are perfectly free to stay onboard until Exeter and pick up a bus to Plymouth there (many of which are also non-stop), but it will take much longer due to the crawl through Exeter's suburbs.

Whilst most folk on here will always prefer a train to a bus, you're going to have to use a bus regardless, and TVP offers a faster journey.
 

Grumpy Git

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If anything they should standardise it to imperial, given that most generally measure their own height in feet, and imperial measurements are easier for people to relate to eg 1 foot is similar to an actual foot.

What if the drivers are European (non-British)?
 

RPI

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What if the drivers are European (non-British)?
Then they should be familiar with the units used before driving. If I was driving in another country its one of the first thing I'd find out, a certain amount of personal responsibility
 

hwl

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Then they should be familiar with the units used before driving. If I was driving in another country its one of the first thing I'd find out, a certain amount of personal responsibility
They will still be intuitively more familiar to metric as well most younger brits
 

Grumpy Git

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Then they should be familiar with the units used before driving. If I was driving in another country its one of the first thing I'd find out, a certain amount of personal responsibility

I disagree and I'm old enough to remember being taught imperial measurements at primary school, but maybe as an engineer I'm biassed?

The only length measurement where I would default to imperial is in a conversation regarding my height.
 
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Horizon22

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The normal rule of thumb when Exeter - Plymouth is closed is to encourage passengers for Plymouth and beyond to change at Tiverton Parkway for a non-stop bus for the reason mentioned upthread - it's right by the M5 and allows the fastest onward journey. This was the standard approach in 2014 when the Dawlish sea wall was being rebuilt.

Passengers for intermediate stations are normally advised to stay onboard until the train terminates at Exeter - it's only Plymouth and Cornwall passengers who are advised to leave at TVP. Passengers for Plymouth and Cornwall are perfectly free to stay onboard until Exeter and pick up a bus to Plymouth there (many of which are also non-stop), but it will take much longer due to the crawl through Exeter's suburbs.

Whilst most folk on here will always prefer a train to a bus, you're going to have to use a bus regardless, and TVP offers a faster journey.

Buses are being arranged for next few days from Tiverton, Exeter SD and Plymouth. Some trains will (at this point) still terminate at Totnes, but I think there will be a general shift towards passengers wanting onwards connections to be encouraged to change at Tiverton Parkway.
 

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And you have to be quite old to have been taught any imperial measurements. Certainly over 50, I think. Or American!
 
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