Buffet trolleys - time they started taking cash again.

[plugwash]

the rapid disappearance of free cash machines

When I look at Link's ATM locator I still see more free cash machines than paid ones. You can also get cash out from most banks for free at the post office (Barclays threatened to stop doing it but later backpedaled) and you can also get "cashback" when paying with your debit card in many food shops.

I think I've paid an ATM fee in the UK about once in my entire lifetime, and that was because I was in an extreme hurry.

Some things do strike me as odd though, at the convenience store round the corner from my parents house there is a fee-charging ATM, but said store is also a post office, and they also do (or at least did last time I asked) debit card cashback. So the fee-charging ATM is essentially an idiot-tax.

 

[Spamcan81]

I pay by card in my corner shop now. I tend to use it for bread, milk, eggs, butter type shops. It was always cash before the pandemic. He hated cards! The pandemic drove different behaviours which haven't gone back and I suspect drove "adapt or die" type responses from small business. Pretty quickly he had signs up in the window welcoming cards and he changed his stock lines to carry more rice and pasta and staples, even fresh veg. From chatting I know his cash sales have not gone back to pre pandemic levels although his overall sales are still vastly up. He loves cards now!


Do things like just eat drive different behaviours? I cant recall the last time I went IN a takeaway!

Can't really comment as I'm not involved with anything like just eat as their commission charges are not to my liking.

 

[Mikey C]

Rather that I'm guilty of making my life as easy as possible. Going to a cash point to take out a note to then go to a shop to break down the note into coins so that I can use a 20p toilet is not convenient or easy. It's the exact same reason that I rarely use the local bus company, as they're cash only, and I can't be bothered to deal with change vouchers when they inevitably don't have the right change.

Certainly in my case I used contactless a long time before it was required to pay for certain things. I remember phoning up HSBC to get them to reissue my card so that it was contactless. Now I use my phone instead, even more convenient as I don't have to worry about carrying my wallet everywhere.

Is that still the case?

Indeed not having to find the exact or near enough change to buy bus tickets when away from home is a massive benefit. Certainly all the big grounps have been accepting contactless for several years

 

[antharro]

I have sympathy for @yorksrob here. I think cash very much still has its place. As someone who runs his own business, I get 100% of the transaction when someone pays cash. I'm happy to take cards (including Amex which a lot of places won't take), but I will lose a couple of percent to the card processing company. It's also useful to have some cash to hand when getting a takeaway delivered - delivery drivers don't tend to have a card machine to hand just for tips. If I order through UberEats I can tip the restaurant as part of the order, but not the delivery driver. And there are still takeaways that will only accept cash. For a while I was a delivery driver and I can attest to how valuable that £1 / £2 cash tip is.

I would say a great majority of my purchases are made with card (mostly because I'm collecting Amex points!) but cash does still have its place. It has nothing to do with "everything was better in the past"; it is simply being pragmatic - sometimes cards are the most appropriate, sometimes cash is.

 

[Edgeley]

Someone tweeted the other day that they went into a 'No cash, card only' cocktail bar in Leeds. They ordered 2 cocktails (£18), 2 madri (£12) and 2 tequilas (£9), offered cash, then walked out.

Anyway, sounds as if most on here will lap up the idea of programmable digital money: you know the one where the Government stipulates what you can spend your money on.

 

[Mikey C]

I have sympathy for @yorksrob here. I think cash very much still has its place. As someone who runs his own business, I get 100% of the transaction when someone pays cash. I'm happy to take cards (including Amex which a lot of places won't take), but I will lose a couple of percent to the card processing company. It's also useful to have some cash to hand when getting a takeaway delivered - delivery drivers don't tend to have a card machine to hand just for tips. If I order through UberEats I can tip the restaurant as part of the order, but not the delivery driver. And there are still takeaways that will only accept cash. For a while I was a delivery driver and I can attest to how valuable that £1 / £2 cash tip is.

I would say a great majority of my purchases are made with card (mostly because I'm collecting Amex points!) but cash does still have its place. It has nothing to do with "everything was better in the past"; it is simply being pragmatic - sometimes cards are the most appropriate, sometimes cash is.

In the case of train trolleys though, it's not customers forcing the train companies to use cards and suck up the card processing fee, but the other way round so clearly they feel that the card handing fee is worth the savings from not having to handle and bank cash.

Plus by speeding up the process, the trolley can move faster through the carriage and thus serve more people. And you avoid those holdups where there isn't enough change...

 

[Dave W]

As someone who runs his own business, I get 100% of the transaction when someone pays cash.

Is that the case though, once you’ve taken into account the cost of training staff to handle it, travelling to bank it, paid any fees for depositing cash, ensuring it’s secure on premises, etc?

I suspect those factors are driving businesses to drop cash (or, more often, for new businesses to establish as cashless) more than anything else.

 

[43066]

In the case of train trolleys though, it's not customers forcing the train companies to use cards and suck up the card processing fee, but the other way round so clearly they feel that the card handing fee is worth the savings from not having to handle and bank cash.

I’m sure that’s driven at least in part by the fact that many people are simply out of the habit of carrying cash and no longer do it.

Also by the economic reality that, whether they accept cash or not, a buffet trolley not taking card payments would lose a great deal of business, so will have to suck up the card payment charges in order to be viable. A trolley taking card but not cash payment will lose a tiny bit of business, but that loss will be offset by the removal of the cash handling charge, so might actually represent a net gain.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I can’t remember the last time I used to actively carry cash, but it was certainly before I passed my GCSEs, and I’m currently at Uni. In fact, for several years I haven’t carried a card either, relying solely on Apple Pay - although I have learned not to do this, as sometimes this stops working until a transaction is made with chip and pin.

Cash has long since been dying out, and COVID was a final nail in a very soon to be buried coffin.

 

[Dave W]

I’m sure that’s driven at least in part by the fact that many people are simply out of the habit of carrying cash and no longer do it.

Also by the economic reality that, whether they accept cash or not, a buffet trolley not taking card payments would lose a great deal of business, so will have to suck up the card payment charges in order to be viable. A trolley taking card but not cash will lose a tiny bit of business that will probably be cheaper than the cash handling charge, so a net gain.

I was about to edit my post but you’ve pretty much summed up what I was going to say, plus:

From a business perspective, what number of people are seeking to purchase from a railway catering trolley who:

• Don’t have a usable debit or credit card
• Do but refuse on principle to use it

I’d say both are exceptionally low numbers. Admittedly not zero. But a private business doesn’t have to cater for every eventuality and may decide the numbers don’t justify the fixed costs of handling cash - especially with the additional issues in this case of remote employees carrying floats, etc.

For those businesses where cash payments are more prevalent such as @Spamcan81’s, that business decision might be entirely different (and justifiably so)

 

[43066]

I’d say both are exceptionally low numbers. Admittedly not zero. But a private business doesn’t have to cater for every eventuality and may decide the numbers don’t justify the fixed costs of handling cash - especially with the additional issues in this case of remote employees carrying floats, etc.

Precisely.

Arguably retaining the choice to appease an awkward minority constitutes a disbenefit to those who don’t wish to use cash, if the cost is passed on.

For those businesses where cash payments are more prevalent such as @Spamcan81’s, that business decision might be entirely different (and justifiably so)

The railway increasingly isn’t one of them, and quite rightly so. Our TMs find everything to do with cash handling an absolute pain in the backside and feel it makes them a target.

People have a couple of quid in their pocket. They like to spend it on a can of coke or a piece of cake.

This statement is also fundamentally wrong these days, at least for most.

I (along with many, many others) don’t habitually go around with “a couple of quid in my pocket” and haven’t done for several years. As a rule I have zero cash on me.

So if you don’t take card payments you won’t be getting any of my money!

 

[AlbertBeale]

Is cash somehow free of the influence of government and business?

It's not trackable like electronic payments are. Cash payments can't be used by either corporations or governments to amass information about people who might want to go about their lives without being spied on.

In the case of train trolleys though, it's not customers forcing the train companies to use cards and suck up the card processing fee, but the other way round so clearly they feel that the card handing fee is worth the savings from not having to handle and bank cash.

Plus by speeding up the process, the trolley can move faster through the carriage and thus serve more people. And you avoid those holdups where there isn't enough change...

Cards aren't necessarily faster - I recently tried to buy an ice cream from a stall in an entertainment venue and found they no longer accepted cash. Getting a card to work on their system took far longer than handing over the pound coins I had ready would have taken. The queue moved much more slowly than it used to when they took coins.

I was about to edit my post but you’ve pretty much summed up what I was going to say, plus:

From a business perspective, what number of people are seeking to purchase from a railway catering trolley who:

• Don’t have a usable debit or credit card
• Do but refuse on principle to use it

I’d say both are exceptionally low numbers. Admittedly not zero. But a private business doesn’t have to cater for every eventuality and may decide the numbers don’t justify the fixed costs of handling cash - especially with the additional issues in this case of remote employees carrying floats, etc.

For those businesses where cash payments are more prevalent such as @Spamcan81’s, that business decision might be entirely different (and justifiably so)

The people not in a position to pay for things electronically are not only those who prefer to pay by cash for whatever reason (and why shouldn't they?), but are disproportionately the poorest and most vulnerable members of society. Some people are very hard up and need to keep close track of the money they spend, and seeing it in front of you is for many the easiest way to do this*. Others have disabilities which make the use of any normal electronic payment system very difficult - to the extent of being humiliating. Hence I think that not letting people pay by cash for normal day-to-day transaction is unnecessarily discriminatory; I'm surprised it's even legal!

*I personally have never in my life been rich enough to be able to spend money - often, even quite small amounts - without stopping to think and keep track. Just waving a card or phone to get what you want and not knowing exactly how much money you've got left afterwards is fine for well-off people (or those who don't care if they get into debt). Although I'm not on the breadline currently, I still need to budget carefully and at times need to keep a pretty precise track of all my spending. Sometimes, using cash is the best way of doing this.

 

[Dave W]

The people not in a position to pay for things electronically are not only those who prefer to pay by cash for whatever reason (and why shouldn't they?), but are disproportionately the poorest and most vulnerable members of society. Some people are very hard up and need to keep close track of the money they spend, and seeing it in front of you is for many the easiest way to do this*.

I was expecting this. How many of these people are regularly using railway catering trolleys? As a private business, surely the trolley operator should be able to gauge this.

Others have disabilities which make the use of any normal electronic payment system very difficult - to the extent of being humiliating. Hence I think that not letting people pay by cash for normal day-to-day transaction is unnecessarily discriminatory; I'm surprised it's even legal!

This is a well meaning argument but I fail to see how it differs from a business which refuses to accept card.

I still need to budget carefully and at times need to keep a pretty precise track of all my spending. Sometimes, using cash is the best way of doing this.

Again, this is all well and good but it has no bearing on whether a catering trolley operator offers to take cash. And it’s a personal choice. I budget best the other way round as I can see what I’m spending and where. Such isolated personal choice can’t influence a business model.

 

[43066]

It's not trackable like electronic payments are. Cash payments can't be used by either corporations or governments to amass information about people who might want to go about their lives without being spied on.

I have some sympathy with that view, but I’m typing this on an iPhone manufactured in China, so I’ve kind of given in to the inevitable! We’re so far down the road of big brother surveillance these days that I’m not sure there’s any point in making your own life more difficult by continuing to insist on using cash. Indeed that strikes me as a a somewhat irrational attitude to privacy if you own a mobile phone, use the internet, or even walk around in public, given how widespread CCTV is.

The people not in a position to pay for things electronically are not only those who prefer to pay by cash for whatever reason (and why shouldn't they?), but are disproportionately the poorest and most vulnerable members of society. Some people are very hard up and need to keep close track of the money they spend, and seeing it in front of you is for many the easiest way to do this*.

Even the poorest people can acquire a prepaid charge card and such things could potentially help with budgeting.

Others have disabilities which make the use of any normal electronic payment system very difficult - to the extent of being humiliating. Hence I think that not letting people pay by cash for normal day-to-day transaction is unnecessarily discriminatory; I'm surprised it's even legal!

I must say I struggle to imagine what disability would render someone able to pay in cash but unable to tap a contactless card onto a reader, while also remaining compos mentis and able to deal with their own affairs.

Of course, if someone is incapable of understanding financial transactions altogether, they shouldn’t be making payments of any kind unsupervised - cash or otherwise.

 

[LordCreed]

Is that still the case?

Indeed not having to find the exact or near enough change to buy bus tickets when away from home is a massive benefit. Certainly all the big grounps have been accepting contactless for several years

The big companies here do, but the smaller local operator is still cash only. Luckily their 12 trip flexi ticket is £19.50 so change out of a £20 isn't too bad. But the single being £2.30 is a bit of a pain...

Anyway, sounds as if most on here will lap up the idea of programmable digital money: you know the one where the Government stipulates what you can spend your money on.

Can't say the government has ever stipulated what I must purchase (with exception of the various taxes which unless you're a big corporation you generally pay...).

Sometimes, using cash is the best way of doing this.

Cash or card, it comes down to your ability to manage your money. And unless you're keeping a record of exactly what you spend in cash, it's far easier to see where money on a card is spent and make savings based on this.

Others have disabilities which make the use of any normal electronic payment system very difficult - to the extent of being humiliating. Hence I think that not letting people pay by cash for normal day-to-day transaction is unnecessarily discriminatory; I'm surprised it's even legal!

I struggle to identify any disability which would make using a plastic card harder than using cash. Cash requires counting (and trust that the person they're paying won't shortchange them etc).

 

[AlbertBeale]

Cash or card, it comes down to your ability to manage your money. And unless you're keeping a record of exactly what you spend in cash, it's far easier to see where money on a card is spent and make savings based on this.

It's not a matter of managing your money in retrospect (and anyway, some people have mental problems which make "managing" money in that sense difficult) - if you're really poor it's a matter of not trying to spend money in the first place if you haven't got enough. If you can only afford to spend £X on shopping, and you have £x in cash with you, then you know where you are. Maybe most people commenting here come from the sort of background where none of their friends or relations has ever been in that situation - lucky you.

 

[Mainline421]

In my experience GA and Avanti are taking cash thankfully, GWR and LNER weren't (yet?). Not sure what's going on with CrossCountry as they sometimes take cash and sometimes don't, on one occasion they anounced cash payments were available but then wouldn't take it, on another the reverse they took cash payment then anounced shortly afterwards it was card only.

 

[Dave W]

It's not a matter of managing your money in retrospect (and anyway, some people have mental problems which make "managing" money in that sense difficult) - if you're really poor it's a matter of not trying to spend money in the first place if you haven't got enough. If you can only afford to spend £X on shopping, and you have £x in cash with you, then you know where you are. Maybe most people commenting here come from the sort of background where none of their friends or relations has ever been in that situation - lucky you.

A vapid generalisation which assumes the only way one can manage their money is to carry it round with them. ”The sort of background” I come from is precisely the sort of background you are attempting to describe. None of my friends or relatives in that situation have issues using cards. Perhaps you might reassess such general remarks.

In any case, back to the topic at hand, their careful spending would probably see them avoid a railway catering trolley in favour of cheaper alternatives up front.

And thus, even if we take your generalisation as gospel, we come back to the choice of a private company not to provide a method of payment mostly used by those who don’t buy from them.

 

[abn444]

I have sympathy for @yorksrob here. I think cash very much still has its place. As someone who runs his own business, I get 100% of the transaction when someone pays cash. I'm happy to take cards (including Amex which a lot of places won't take), but I will lose a couple of percent to the card processing company. It's also useful to have some cash to hand when getting a takeaway delivered - delivery drivers don't tend to have a card machine to hand just for tips. If I order through UberEats I can tip the restaurant as part of the order, but not the delivery driver. And there are still takeaways that will only accept cash. For a while I was a delivery driver and I can attest to how valuable that £1 / £2 cash tip is.

I would say a great majority of my purchases are made with card (mostly because I'm collecting Amex points!) but cash does still have its place. It has nothing to do with "everything was better in the past"; it is simply being pragmatic - sometimes cards are the most appropriate, sometimes cash is.

I agree

Anyway, sounds as if most on here will lap up the idea of programmable digital money: you know the one where the Government stipulates what you can spend your money on.

It's not trackable like electronic payments are. Cash payments can't be used by either corporations or governments to amass information about people who might want to go about their lives without being spied on.

I agree. That's what I was getting at earlier, people supporting a cashless society is pretty much the same as a turkey supporting Christmas

 

[43066]

I agree. That's what I was getting at earlier, people supporting a cashless society is pretty much the same as a turkey supporting Christmas

Is all your money held in physical notes stuffed under your mattress, then?

 

[dk1]

Do things like just eat drive different behaviours? I cant recall the last time I went IN a takeaway!

Now that is something I don’t understand. I use my local Chinese & Fish & Chip shop once or twice a week. I couldn’t even contemplate having them delivered.

 

[Neo9320]

Just a point that no one seems to have mentioned here. The ‘costs’ of handling cash and card transactions are entirely tax deductible, in effect costing businesses nothing.

 

[Scott1]

The only downside from a staff perspective is the loss of tips and 'keep the change'. Which whilst only pocket money is still a nice perk, especially on Rail Gourmet wages.

 

[dk1]

In my experience GA and Avanti are taking cash thankfully, GWR and LNER weren't (yet?). Not sure what's going on with CrossCountry as they sometimes take cash and sometimes don't, on one occasion they anounced cash payments were available but then wouldn't take it, on another the reverse they took cash payment then anounced shortly afterwards it was card only.

There was always that sense of dread on LNER when travelling on the southern half of the route and your change included Scottish notes.

 

[yorksrob]

You can. Via your contactless card. It is the same money spent in the same way. Like I said it isn't 1953 anymore, no matter how much you wish it was. The world has changed and you are being left behind. That said as I think you are getting tired and emotional and it is time for bed.

I'm now refreshed and awake, and I still think the anti-cash brigade are loonies.

 

[district]

Like I'm made out to be the loony for wanting to use cash to buy a kitkat. It's this century that's gone bonkers.

It’s more the way you are articulating your point that is making you come across like that.

Small traders often like cash.

Often for money laundering or tax evasion purposes

 

[yorksrob]

In the case of train trolleys though, it's not customers forcing the train companies to use cards and suck up the card processing fee, but the other way round so clearly they feel that the card handing fee is worth the savings from not having to handle and bank cash.

Plus by speeding up the process, the trolley can move faster through the carriage and thus serve more people. And you avoid those holdups where there isn't enough change...

It doesn't appear quicker when they're stood around waiting for the cash machine to work (Cue lots of tutting and head shaking from the trolley attendant).

 

[dk1]

Often for money laundering or tax evasion purposes

I am always weary of outlets that have a crudely written sign stating ‘Cash Only’ behind the counter.

 

[yorksrob]

It’s more the way you are articulating your point that is making you come across like that.

That's off-topic from the subject of the thread in any case.

 

[district]

That's off-topic from the subject of the thread in any case.

Perhaps, but it was you who brought up being a loony!