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Bus Stops - Not Good Enough?

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Rhydgaled

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Story here: Shabby, neglected bus stops will never help get more people on to public transport. Talks about the investment that is being seen in railway stations (presumably NSIP and NSIP+, but it doesn't say so) and complains about the standard of bus stops.
Shabby or minimalist bus stops are undermining official attempts to entice more people onto public transport, say transport managers

Personally, I think alot of railway stations (almost all the unstaffed ones) are just as bad, if not worse. Even some of the 'improvement' projects are actually a step backwards: eg. Shrewsbury where the waiting room on the plans was smaller than the existing one!

Really though, I think what is really needed to entice more people onto public transport, in terms of train stations and bus stops, is to ensure stops are fit-for-purpose. If you know the timetable you should in most cases be able to just turn up 3-5 minutes before your service is due and then all that is needed is a shelter from the rain. However, at interchange points (particularly between bus and rail) a much higher level of facilities is needed since you may be waiting 20 minutes or so for onward travel. At a minimum, I think full shelter from the wind, as well as rain, is then required. That means a fully-enclosed structure with closeable doors, walls that extend right to the floor etc. (heating might not be essential though). Ideally should have public toilets nearby too.

What does anyone else think?
 
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freetoview33

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I can't talk for Wales but from my experience a lot of new bus stops are better than most railway stations and unstaffed stations are even worse!
 

Tim R-T-C

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I'd rather have buses that accept card, or at least drivers who will take a payment in anything other than exact change without complaining.

Drivers who not complain if you don't know the exact name of the stop you want.

A working timetable board to show when the next bus is due instead of relying on arbitrary printed timetable.

A timetable designed for commuters and not just the elderly.
 

telstarbox

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If it's a rural stop served by 1 bus per hour (or less) then it is hard to justify more than a basic shelter, possibly with its own lighting.
 

radamfi

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In Britain, it is assumed that no one ever changes between buses, and in the unlikely event that they do, it is only ever at main town centre bus stations.

In the Netherlands, they build out of town bus stations that are intended primarily for changing between routes. They aren't usually very elaborate structures, and are sometimes just an array of bus shelters, but they are usually fine for keeping you dry. It often doesn't matter, though, because it is very common for buses to arrive and depart together, and as they commonly all wait for each other, you can usually stay on the bus until your connecting bus arrives.

Here are a few examples:

http://cdn3.vtourist.com/0/797791-bus_station-Den_Oever.jpg

http://www.rtvdrenthe.nl/nieuws/ov-knooppunt-gieten-officieel-geopend

http://www.fransmensonides.nl/foto13/busstatheinenoord.jpg
 
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Greenback

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The bus stops, and the shelters, in Llanelli and Swansea are far better than those I remember from my childhood up to the 1990's.

Most of the ones I used to use back in the day were vandalised, used as toilets and generally pretty unwelcoming.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Bus stops, blinking nuisance, how can I bump my 4x4 onto the pavement to park it when there's a great big lump of metal in the way. And some peasant hanging around to boot:D

Seriously, bus infrastructure is a disgrace nowadays (generally speaking). A full list of faults would be quite long but would include:

Many areas do not even have poles and flags so you do not know where to wait if you are not a regular user and, with the lack of route maps, you may not even be on the correct street. A sign saying 'bus stop' is re-assuring to the causal user.

Few stops now have up-to-date timetables, instead requiring you to phone / text, at premium rates, a call centre. Fine if you can afford it, and there is a mobile signal, and the info at the other end is accurate.

Fewer shelters are being provided - essential (as you say) in the wind and rain.

A few years ago, a new interchange was built at Grassington in the Yorkshire Dales, not an area well served by buses. It was to a pleasing design with an interesting, circular, glass and stone waiting building - far bigger than a shelter. Unfortunately, by the time of my last visit the doors had disappeared. Far better than the 'skinny people only and all stand up' shelters at the much more recently rebuilt Skipton bus station though.

I would say railway stations, even the remotest, are invariably better than bus stops and even many bus stations nowadays. I cannot think of a rail station without a shelter, lighting, timetables and (being rolled out) real-time displays and help points (free to use - none of that premium rate nonsense).

Yes, fully enclosed and heated would be better. Waiting in the stone building at Dent (highest mainline station in England) soaked after a long walk in the rain was far more preferable than hanging around at a rural roadside location with no shelter. More certainty that the train would turn up than the bus too.
 
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Busaholic

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An up-to-date relevant timetable is the minimum requirement for any bus stop anywhere.
 

radamfi

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You might also want to think about having bike racks at bus stops. They are very common in the Netherlands of course.
 

Strathclyder

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My closest stop has been consistently vandalised (timetables ripped out, the backing sheet burnt etc). The only investment it has seen in the past two years is a raised section of pavement to allow disabled passengers to board buses. It also has no shelter to protect passengers from the elements, despite there being ample space for one.

I'll see if I can upload some pics of it soon.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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This is something that does annoy me.

Bus companies should provide bus timetable information at key stops at the very least. Both Roger French and FBB have posted recently about how the industry fails to do this - they should be advertising their own business.

As for bus shelters, this is the responsibility of local authorities. They should provide shelters at key stops (though the expense probably precludes every stop - even in lauded European countries, not every stop has a shelter). However, the budget cuts make me think that we're going to struggle though perhaps the advertising route (using adshel or de laval is the way forward)?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The bus stops, and the shelters, in Llanelli and Swansea are far better than those I remember from my childhood up to the 1990's.

Most of the ones I used to use back in the day were vandalised, used as toilets and generally pretty unwelcoming.

I do think things have improved in general (though I appreciate that it's mixed across the country). My home county is much improved in bus shelter provision!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In Britain, it is assumed that no one ever changes between buses, and in the unlikely event that they do, it is only ever at main town centre bus stations.

In the Netherlands, they build out of town bus stations that are intended primarily for changing between routes. They aren't usually very elaborate structures, and are sometimes just an array of bus shelters, but they are usually fine for keeping you dry. It often doesn't matter, though, because it is very common for buses to arrive and depart together, and as they commonly all wait for each other, you can usually stay on the bus until your connecting bus arrives.

Here are a few examples:

http://cdn3.vtourist.com/0/797791-bus_station-Den_Oever.jpg

http://www.rtvdrenthe.nl/nieuws/ov-knooppunt-gieten-officieel-geopend

http://www.fransmensonides.nl/foto13/busstatheinenoord.jpg

That's not necessarily true. There are some quite celebrated ones such as Cymmer in the Afan Valley, or Talbot Green near Pontypridd.

In Greater Bristol, aside from the Centre/Bus Station, there are a number of points where interchanging is perfectly achievable (e.g. Cribbs Causeway, South Bristol Hospital, Yate) but the fact is that often route networks tend to hub and spoke with fewer radial routes (but I don't want to explore the whys and wherefores of that).

However, there are some truly terrible places to attempt to catch a bus. I consider myself well travelled but Weston super Mare is awful.

I'd also say that bus stations are now generally better than of old. I can remember standing in some of the grimiest places waiting for a bus (e.g. Eldon Square Concourse in Newcastle, Doncaster, Darlington, Leeds Central) that have mostly since been replaced by new structures. However, that's only part of the issue. Whether a local authority or bus company is involved or not, often you see a facility designed with insufficient capacity and manoeuvring space. Plymouth is the latest council who are doing this - Bretonside is awful but their "solution" is anything but the answer
 

GrimsbyPacer

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Grimsby now has the worst bus stops. The council knocked the bus station down and replaced it with bus stops scattered around 3 streets. The roads were resurfaced with porus blocks which quickly become broken and flithy. People and cars share these streets as no road markings can be put on the paving causing accidents. Theres not enough room for buses and traffic is often held up. And to make matters worse all bus stops so the wrong numbers!
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Grimsby now has the worst bus stops. The council knocked the bus station down and replaced it with bus stops scattered around 3 streets. The roads were resurfaced with porus blocks which quickly become broken and flithy. People and cars share these streets as no road markings can be put on the paving causing accidents. Theres not enough room for buses and traffic is often held up. And to make matters worse all bus stops so the wrong numbers!

Not been to Grimsby for a long time but recall it was hardly good before.

Other personal faves in how not to get it right....

Sunderland Interchange - it could've been an excellent multi-modal interchange but Nexus decided on a design that's open to the elements....in Northern England..... they could've gone to Middlesbrough to see how it should be done!

Oxford - too small with a handful of interurban bus services (with most not calling) as the site was redeveloped. The use of end on parking (rather than saw tooth) makes it dangerous too. Perhaps the mooted development at the rail station might be better?

Swindon - due for demolition before the credit crunch came. Depressing, dark, unwelcoming...


However, for me it's the county town of North Yorkshire, Northallerton, that gets the plaudits. I think it's now gained a shelter (but a one sided affair so only any good if the rain is absolutely vertical) but otherwise just a bit of parking for three buses. Pitiful
 

Strathclyder

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My closest stop has been consistently vandalised (timetables ripped out, the backing sheet burnt etc). The only investment it has seen in the past two years is a raised section of pavement to allow disabled passengers to board buses. It also has no shelter to protect passengers from the elements, despite there being ample space for one.

I'll see if I can upload some pics of it soon.
My closest stop. The aforementioned burnt backing sheet has been torn out, exposing the bare plastic to the elements:
 

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ECML180

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Agreed, the information and facilities at stops and interchanges is, on the whole, poor. Having said that, in Doncaster (where I live!) bus stops are generally on the up, with improvements happening and reasonable maintenance. The bus station is a considerable improvement on the previous two, but still needed much more input from operators and passengers.

The attempts to integrate with the rail station were poor, for those who don't know the end of the bus station meets the end of the rail station...via a fairly dark pelican crossing, where the shopping centre continues over the crossing and connects to the station. Ideally the walking route would just go over the road, the existing situation is fairly dangerous. Equally, extending the shopping centre on to an over-bridge to the station platforms would be ideal.

It is getting better, but if only the council would listen to the people who use it!
 

Rhydgaled

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Agreed, the information and facilities at stops and interchanges is, on the whole, poor. Having said that, in Doncaster (where I live!) bus stops are generally on the up, with improvements happening and reasonable maintenance. The bus station is a considerable improvement on the previous two, but still needed much more input from operators and passengers.

The attempts to integrate with the rail station were poor, for those who don't know the end of the bus station meets the end of the rail station...via a fairly dark pelican crossing, where the shopping centre continues over the crossing and connects to the station. Ideally the walking route would just go over the road, the existing situation is fairly dangerous. Equally, extending the shopping centre on to an over-bridge to the station platforms would be ideal.

It is getting better, but if only the council would listen to the people who use it!
In Aberystwyth, the bus station has also been revamped without an entirely safe suitation for passengers. Most of the bus station (stands 1-6) is well located next to the railway station (which hopefully is going to get a waiting room as part of the current refurbishment, which will partially compensate for the damage to the architecture and for the lack of anything more than bus shelters on the bus station). However, stand 7 of the bus station is the wrong side of the road. There's a zebra crossing, but it is at the opposite end of the bus station from the railway station, so its tempting to rush straight accross the road for the train or other buses. Stand 1 (nearest to the station) has the service up to university. The other day, after arriving at stand 7 I legged it down to the zebra, accross it and back up, missing the bus to uni by about 12 meters. If I'd run to stand 1 directly I might have made it, or got run over. Personally, I think if they didn't use stands 5&6 for parking buses between runs there'd be enough stand capacity on 1-6 that they didn't need to operate scheduled services to stand 7 (maybe park the buses there instead!)
 

ECML180

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That strikes a chord to some extent with a similar allocation problem at Doncaster, with many services dropping off passengers at the first bay in the bus station before moving on to their pick-up stand or to the parking on the offside of the roadway. Unfortunately both stand immediately after the entrance have regular timetabled services...leading to vehicles ending up queueing back across the crossing! I don't know how it seems to you in Aberystwyth but in Doncaster I'd say First clearly has first pickings of stand allocations with passengers nor other operators getting much input.

Also when it comes to running for buses, you should see Loughborough with the bus stop for the uni buses a good 50 yards from the station exit and a taxi rank directly outside. This often causes hordes of runners getting in the way after a train arrives!
 

61653 HTAFC

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When I first moved back up to Yorkshire, a fair bit of investment had been made in bus stops in the HD8 area I'd moved to, with new shelters, flags, etc.

However, in a brilliant example of joined up thinking, a section of raised kerb was installed (presumably by Kirklees Highways) at my nearby stop to go with the new fleet of low floor Plaxton Centros that Centrebus Holdings (as they were then known) had just introduced. A week later, Metro contractors turned up to install a new shelter, putting it in such a way that prevented the raised kerb from being any use at all to those who might need it! :roll:
 
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Rhydgaled

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In Britain, it is assumed that no one ever changes between buses, and in the unlikely event that they do, it is only ever at main town centre bus stations.
Well, I'd say it is hardly supprising that changes are rare given that buses waiting for trains/other buses is rare so you need to allow plenty of time between legs coupled with the lack of shelter from wind that the standard bus shelter things provide. Town centre bus stations are generally where the routes come together, and therefore where there is most likely to be an onward service available and where I would think better facilites than just the draughty things known as bus shelter are needed.

In the Netherlands, they build out of town bus stations that are intended primarily for changing between routes. They aren't usually very elaborate structures, and are sometimes just an array of bus shelters, but they are usually fine for keeping you dry. It often doesn't matter, though, because it is very common for buses to arrive and depart together, and as they commonly all wait for each other, you can usually stay on the bus until your connecting bus arrives.
That's the problem, our buses don't arrive and depart together and the shelters, although (normally) fine for keeping you dry, can't keep you warm for nearly long enough.

Many areas do not even have poles and flags so you do not know where to wait if you are not a regular user and, with the lack of route maps, you may not even be on the correct street. A sign saying 'bus stop' is re-assuring to the causal user.

Few stops now have up-to-date timetables, instead requiring you to phone / text, at premium rates, a call centre. Fine if you can afford it, and there is a mobile signal, and the info at the other end is accurate.
An up-to-date relevant timetable is the minimum requirement for any bus stop anywhere.
Agreed, lack of up-to-date timetables at designated bus stops really is not acceptable.

'skinny people only and all stand up'
That's something I forgot to mention earlier. INSIDE the dry, windproof shelter, properly designed seats (plastic or wooden, not cold metal) you can actually sit on. Not curved things that make you slide off.

I cannot think of a rail station without a shelter, lighting, timetables and (being rolled out) real-time displays and help points (free to use - none of that premium rate nonsense).
True, but leads back to my comment earlier about facillities being appropriate to the station/stop in question. Passengers are unlikely to be hanging arround a remote station on plain line with no buses to interchange with for very long, so the standard bus-shelter-like things (slightly larger than most actual bus shelters, but basically look like the same design scaled up) are to be expected. However, another remote station at a junction of several lines could see passengers from one line having to wait quite a long time for a service down one of the other branches.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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That's the problem, our buses don't arrive and depart together and the shelters, although (normally) fine for keeping you dry, can't keep you warm for nearly long enough.

That's something I forgot to mention earlier. INSIDE the dry, windproof shelter, properly designed seats (plastic or wooden, not cold metal) you can actually sit on. Not curved things that make you slide off.

True, but leads back to my comment earlier about facillities being appropriate to the station/stop in question. Passengers are unlikely to be hanging arround a remote station on plain line with no buses to interchange with for very long, so the standard bus-shelter-like things (slightly larger than most actual bus shelters, but basically look like the same design scaled up) are to be expected. However, another remote station at a junction of several lines could see passengers from one line having to wait quite a long time for a service down one of the other branches.

There is always the issue of how long a window do you employ for connecting services? Too long, people get annoyed. Too short and there's no margin for delays. It's a balance.

The seats that are angled are specifically designed to stop rough sleepers.

Funny that you've not mentioned Aberystwyth bus station. It's situated right next to the train station. It could be really smart but no, just a collection of bus shelters.

Should principal stops be better? Well yes, though I think that councils have generally done a decent job with shelters. Information is sadly lacking, and many councils have stopped bothering at all. Some larger operators (and some smaller ones) do provide roadside publicity but so many don't.

However, there are 2,600 train stations (roughly) in the UK. How many separate bus stops are there? Perhaps an unfair comparison but certainly the main stop in a village or small town should be accorded the same status?
 

Greenback

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I do agree that up to date timetables are a minimum requirement for a bus stop. I do feel annoyed when they aren't there, but the stops I use locally generally have them.

Another feature that is useful, especially where timetables aren't displayed, is a list of routes that the stop serves. We were in Falmouth a few years ago and it was quite difficult to spot which stop we needed for our bus to Helston. It was frustrating to have such a lack of information, and the people we asked had no idea either.

In the end we hovered between stops and kept a sharp eye out for the bus! I wasn't very impressed that day!
 

radamfi

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There is always the issue of how long a window do you employ for connecting services? Too long, people get annoyed. Too short and there's no margin for delays. It's a balance.

You do have to have good punctuality to implement decent connections. It also often means you have to introduce lengthy layover times at termini to ensure that buses meet at connecting points at the right time. That might mean increased PVR on a particular route. These things generally mean that UK operators don't think this is worth the effort or the extra cost.

I studied the Cymmer example last night and it looks like a good effort given that the timetables are co-ordinated, although I was a bit concerned that they are only prepared to wait for 5 minutes for delayed connections. I had a look at the turning circle in Google Street View and I'm not sure I would want to wait there until the next bus.

In the Netherlands, you are supposed to tell the driver when you get on if you want a connection, although people normally only bother if there is a delay. In the event of a delay, the bus driver will inform control that someone wants a connection and the connection will usually wait unless the delay is particularly long. In some cases, they might lay on an extra bus to allow the connecting bus to leave on time.
 

theshillito

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I'll just be here wondering if I'll ever get a bus stop sign, let alone a shelter or timetable info. I guess with a bus every 3 hours, there's no need for one, right?
 

W-on-Sea

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I find it astounding that, not only is current timetable information often not provided at bus stops (and when it is, is often not in the most helpful format - e.g. a list of departure times for a stop earlier on the route is something commonly found on Oxford Bus Co material at stops), but that outdated information is not removed. I was astounded recently to find a bus stop in Buckinghamshire that had timetables on display which were from the early 1990s, concerning routes that no longer run....and nothing at all about the regular services that use the stop today.
 

starrymarkb

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One thing I liked about Geneva was at interchanges where two routes were on different roads (ie at a cross roads) there was a little arrow and distance to the other stop shown on the sign ie [8] -> 50m
 

Tom B

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That strikes a chord to some extent with a similar allocation problem at Doncaster, with many services dropping off passengers at the first bay in the bus station before moving on to their pick-up stand or to the parking on the offside of the roadway. Unfortunately both stand immediately after the entrance have regular timetabled services...leading to vehicles ending up queueing back across the crossing! I don't know how it seems to you in Aberystwyth but in Doncaster I'd say First clearly has first pickings of stand allocations with passengers nor other operators getting much input.

Also when it comes to running for buses, you should see Loughborough with the bus stop for the uni buses a good 50 yards from the station exit and a taxi rank directly outside. This often causes hordes of runners getting in the way after a train arrives!

As I recall the allocations were done by grouping into areas e.g. everything that goes out past the Dome was on stands next to each other, everything that goes past the DRI grouped together etc... however sometimes this caused problems, e.g. for a while the 205s and 59s were on the same stand and for a while they both departed at xx:15, whilst the 58s departed at xx:10 and xx:40 - result, one bus for most of the hour and then three vying for the space for about ten minutes, pensioners running out onto the roadways etc!

Really the bus station needs a) real-time information, which it seems to be slowly getting and b) staff from Mainline. The PTE-supplied staff's answer to any question ("There hasn't been a bus for 40 minutes, what's happening") is "I dunno, you need to speak to the company".

Back to the topic, in general, stops are a poor advertisement for buses. Imagine somebody who doesn't use the bus very often going to a bus stop. He knows it's there because he drives past it every day and sees the bus stopping there, but his car is in for service. He finds a piece of paper with some times on, but it's not very clear exactly where the bus goes and whether it'll actually come any time soon. There's no indication of the fare he should expect to pay. If the bus is delayed nobody will tell him unless he phones a number (invariably premium-rate) to ascertain what's going on. Not really a good impression to make on a potential customer.
 

ECML180

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As I recall the allocations were done by grouping into areas e.g. everything that goes out past the Dome was on stands next to each other, everything that goes past the DRI grouped together etc... however sometimes this caused problems, e.g. for a while the 205s and 59s were on the same stand and for a while they both departed at xx:15, whilst the 58s departed at xx:10 and xx:40 - result, one bus for most of the hour and then three vying for the space for about ten minutes, pensioners running out onto the roadways etc!

Really the bus station needs a) real-time information, which it seems to be slowly getting and b) staff from Mainline. The PTE-supplied staff's answer to any question ("There hasn't been a bus for 40 minutes, what's happening") is "I dunno, you need to speak to the company".

It was done fairly well like that at one point, but like you say some of it didn't make sense. One of the worst things if you ask me is that services via the hospital were shifted to C Concourse when they represent a large proportion of passengers, sending them for a long walk and crucially often holding up traffic on the zebra crossing.

But as far as I recall the only integration was within First services, Stagecoach's routes via Bawtry Road were shoved out of the way to B1 and have remained there since, no matter where the 55 (the main service along Bawtry Road) departed from. Also, the fairly frequent changing of stands, and also the fact that each change was a large scale upheaval has led to a number of people avoiding the bus station(me included) as they simply have no idea where the bus leaves from now! Each time stand allocations changed barely any effort was made to inform passengers too.
 

Martin2012

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I am rather surprised the bus stops outside Tyntesfield House(on the X6 route) do not have shelters or a seat, bearing in mind that many passengers traveling from here are tourists, this is the least that they should have.

Also, in the area of Yate where I live, the withdrawal of the X27 has meant that two stops(one of which has a shelter) are disused for most of the week(save for the N50 service on weekends) whilst passengers now have to wait at a shelter-less stop. I also feel that some of the bus stops on Greenways road could be better positioned.
 
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A city where there are well maintained shelters and information at most city centre stops. Where major interchanges are very well thought out. Real time information at most locations. Good standard outside the core city. Good tram /bus integration. P&R services that double as high quality service buses for less experienced bus users. Where on earth could that be? (Hint Nottingham)
 

Busaholic

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A city where there are well maintained shelters and information at most city centre stops. Where major interchanges are very well thought out. Real time information at most locations. Good standard outside the core city. Good tram /bus integration. P&R services that double as high quality service buses for less experienced bus users. Where on earth could that be? (Hint Nottingham)

An enviable location - are you sure you are in the U.K.?:lol:
 
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