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Businesses in England that will still restrict entry (via face masks) after July 19th

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VauxhallandI

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This is something for which I've had considerable concern too, and I commend you for being open about it. The government have effectively outsourced their responsibility to businesses and individuals for little reason other than to ease pressure on themselves and there are people who will be caught in the cross-fire.

As much as I wish to see masks gone sooner rather than later, I'm honestly glad that I'll not be in England for the next few weeks, and that I hope the derestriction process up here is more clear and orderly.



But they don't need to, that's the point of contention with the government divesting themselves of responsibility. You can desire it from businesses, but your only option in the event of them not delivering is to withdraw your custom.
I know but it doesn't stop one asking in order to highlight to them in a logical fashion how completely mental the situation is. They won't be able to answer and that is where I would leave the discussion with a raised eyebrow.

I know but it doesn't stop one asking in order to highlight to them in a logical fashion how completely mental the situation is. They won't be able to answer and that is where I would leave the discussion with a raised eyebrow.
My workplace has just announced as of Monday that all measures including signage will be removed. This is because we are professionally run and they know they can't answer the questions I listed therefore they know that they haven't got a leg to stand on otherwise.

Its just private companies with half wits running them that look to play God without having the intelligence to think it through.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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I have got a email from Costa - they will not me mandating masks / social distancing anymore. But ask for people to respect people that do want to. That is going to create some interesting discussions inside.
Sounds like the one I have just come across whilst looking in my inbox...

"From Monday 19th July, customers and team members will no longer be asked to wear a face covering or to leave contact details for NHS contact tracing services"
 

nlogax

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I have got a email from Costa - they will not me mandating masks / social distancing anymore. But ask for people to respect people that do want to.

Which is fair enough I think. I'd like to think that a company the size of Costa would lead a decent way forward for other high street businesses to follow.
 
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People are encouraged to use public transport, particularly at quieter times, but to help each other safe using the Metrolink network, bus stations or transport interchanges in Greater Manchester, where they must still wear a face covering unless exempt. In addition, passengers travelling on buses and trains in Greater Manchester are expected to wear a face covering unless exempt.

Under the current legal restrictions, there has been no requirement to wear a face covering in TfGM bus stations or transport interchanges, so I'm not sure they are likely to change it now. The recorded announcements say it's required "on public transport" but nothing about while waiting for public transport, while picking up a Metro newspaper or while using it as a shortcut to get to somewhere else if it's raining. Given that smoking and riding a bike are also banned inside TfGM bus stations, but the staff (usually contract cleaners upgraded to trying to do customer service in my local one) do nothing to stop that, I doubt they are suddenly going to crack down on mask wearing.

What I would expect is for some organisations with overly enthusiastic HR departments if they haven't already, to send out emails to all their staff asking them to wear face coverings whenever they are wearing company uniform/ID badges in a public place even if not on duty in order to "set a good example". There will be plenty of people armed and ready to send a message of complaint to a company or any angry letter to a newspaper's letters page because they saw someone in a Sainsburys uniform not wearing a mask on their way to work or someone in an Avanti West Coast uniform not wearing a mask while they were buying their lunch.
 

Freightmaster

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Every business that does this has to be able to demonstrate:

1 - What is the source/data set they are monitoring?
Customers posting on their Twitter feed, threatening to take their business elsewhere as they don't "feel safe" without masks :rolleyes:


4 - Who is making the decisions and what are their qualifications to do so?
As per the above, businesses themselves are not actually "making decisions" as such,
as they are totally in thrall of their most vocal/paranoid customers on social media...





MARK
 

seagull

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Avanti West Coast are saying that staff will no longer be required to wear face coverings (in England) but any who wish to can. Customers are also no longer required to (in England), but in line with government guidance may be encouraged to (not enforced) when in busy situations.

Obviously Scotland and Wales still compulsory unless exempt.

A sensible approach. Although one wonders how in practice this will be managed when crossing borders.
 

VauxhallandI

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Customers posting on their Twitter feed, threatening to take their business elsewhere as they don't "feel safe" without masks :rolleyes:



As per the above, businesses themselves are not actually "making decisions" as such,
as they are totally in thrall of their most vocal/paranoid customers on social media...





MARK
Exactly
 

Dave91131

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Avanti West Coast are saying that staff will no longer be required to wear face coverings (in England) but any who wish to can. Customers are also no longer required to (in England), but in line with government guidance may be encouraged to (not enforced) when in busy situations.
Excellent. Well done Avanti.

All other businesses, take note.
 

Dent

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I have got a email from Costa - they will not me mandating masks / social distancing anymore. But ask for people to respect people that do want to.

Just out of interest, when did you receive that one? I'm signed up to their loyalty app and get fairly frequent promotional emails, but not seen that one.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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I caught COVID earlier this week and it has not been fun. While I'm getting better now, it's left me a little nervous of being in busy spaces again because the thought of getting it again is horrendous, so I'll probably air on the side of caution and stick to social distancing and masks for now. But that's just a personal preference and I won't be judging anyone who decides to ditch the masks when it's legal
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I caught COVID earlier this week and it has not been fun. While I'm getting better now, it's left me a little nervous of being in busy spaces again because the thought of getting it again is horrendous, so I'll probably air on the side of caution and stick to social distancing and masks for now. But that's just a personal preference and I won't be judging anyone who decides to ditch the masks when it's legal
Indeed, once being in the situation of actually suffering from the effects of that virus, ones views can change dramatically on that particular subject.
 

102 fan

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What are
I caught COVID earlier this week and it has not been fun. While I'm getting better now, it's left me a little nervous of being in busy spaces again because the thought of getting it again is horrendous, so I'll probably air on the side of caution and stick to social distancing and masks for now. But that's just a personal preference and I won't be judging anyone who decides to ditch the masks when it's legal


What are your symptoms?
 

Failed Unit

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Just out of interest, when did you receive that one? I'm signed up to their loyalty app and get fairly frequent promotional emails, but not seen that one.
This morning, I know others that got it in the afternoon so they appear to be batching them.
 

VauxhallandI

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I caught COVID earlier this week and it has not been fun. While I'm getting better now, it's left me a little nervous of being in busy spaces again because the thought of getting it again is horrendous, so I'll probably air on the side of caution and stick to social distancing and masks for now. But that's just a personal preference and I won't be judging anyone who decides to ditch the masks when it's legal
Sorry to hear you are not well.

At lest now you have had it then your susceptibility to being ill agin will have lowered so you should have more confidence if anything.
 

Failed Unit

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At lest now you have had it then your susceptibility to being ill agin will have lowered so you should have more confidence if anything.
I must admit I had a colleague who got it, he was mega stressed before hand. It was almost like the Zombie apocalypse. His sister got it first and was hospitalized, then he got it (described it as a very bad flu). Now he has had it, he seems to have gone the other way as is possibly a little too relaxed about it. I guess the positive to take from it for anyone that has had it, is that they are less likely to get it a 2nd time. (Not seen any real statistics to if the 2nd time is more mild or severe)
 

bengley

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Indeed, once being in the situation of actually suffering from the effects of that virus, ones views can change dramatically on that particular subject.
I caught glanuldar fever in 2018 because I presumably had sexy times with someone who was carrying it. I think I know who it was. It was single handedly the worst thing I've ever suffered from, I was hospitalised and was bed bound for nearly 10 days. I felt like I was going to die.

Thankfully I didn't. I haven't stopped meeting up with random boys off the internet and still kiss passionately regardless.

Well, that is, until about 2 months ago when I became partnered ;)
 

yorkie

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At lest now you have had it then your susceptibility to being ill agin will have lowered so you should have more confidence if anything.
I agree, though I'd also be sure to get a second vaccine dose in about 8-12 weeks time.
I caught COVID earlier this week and it has not been fun.
This is unusual, as I know many young people who were asymptomatic or had mild symptoms. Sorry to hear youi've been unlucky, but let's try to stay on topic!

While I'm getting better now, it's left me a little nervous of being in busy spaces again because the thought of getting it again is horrendous
This makes no sense. The reason this virus affects some people in the way it affected you is due to lack of prior immunity. It was the same with OC43 and similar viruses. Now that you have some immunity, the chances are that your next infection will be much milder. But in order to genuinely...

[err] on the side of caution
...you should get vaccinated (I understand you've already had your first dose, but unfortunately not sufficiently log ago to be of much use against this infection), again it's all discussed in other threads.


and stick to social distancing and masks for now.
If you wish to keep apart from people that is your choice but I bet you can't keep it up for long! And you cannot stop people going near you. As for masks, if you want to avoid virus exposure you need to obtain an FFP3 mask (as discussed in other threads) not a flimsy loose fitting mask that does not filter out virus particles. Again, see other threads.

But that's just a personal preference and I won't be judging anyone who decides to ditch the masks when it's legal
It's your choice but if your preference isn't FFP3 then you are still going to be exposed to virus particles. But those particles are not going to be of any threat to you once you've built up good immunity. 2 doses of the vaccine + a natural exposure provides excellent protection. See other threads.

I've answered your post briefly but any more discussion would need to take place on a suitable thread not this one please.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I have been a member of the SkyScraper City website since 2011, the same year as I joined this particular website. On that website, there are many threads specific to the Greater Manchester area and on one of these threads, the matter of Manchester Metrolink tram travel on this thread has certainly brought forward a large number of postings. I quote below one of these, word for word, so contributors to this thread can read it.

"The Conditions of Carriage forms part of the by-laws, so they can still say whatever ever they want and still be legally enforceable for those who also buy a ticket. There is not going to be an England-wide law saying "mask wearing is optional", just the absence of a law that says "mask wearing is mandatory", so the by-laws/conditions of carriage can be stricter than what the law says as long as it doesn't bring it into conflict with wider laws.

Similarly, business owners can still ask people to wear masks and refuse to serve those who don't (and don't have a genuine need to not wear) and that's completely within the law. Certainly several pubs are doing this because they know a lot of people will be less likely to go out if they don't think its safe, so they're wanting to maximise safety so more cautious people will still go there"
 

VauxhallandI

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I have been a member of the SkyScraper City website since 2011, the same year as I joined this particular website. On that website, there are many threads specific to the Greater Manchester area and on one of these threads, the matter of Manchester Metrolink tram travel on this thread has certainly brought forward a large number of postings. I quote below one of these, word for word, so contributors to this thread can read it.

"The Conditions of Carriage forms part of the by-laws, so they can still say whatever ever they want and still be legally enforceable for those who also buy a ticket. There is not going to be an England-wide law saying "mask wearing is optional", just the absence of a law that says "mask wearing is mandatory", so the by-laws/conditions of carriage can be stricter than what the law says as long as it doesn't bring it into conflict with wider laws.

Similarly, business owners can still ask people to wear masks and refuse to serve those who don't (and don't have a genuine need to not wear) and that's completely within the law. Certainly several pubs are doing this because they know a lot of people will be less likely to go out if they don't think its safe, so they're wanting to maximise safety so more cautious people will still go there"
If one really is of the mindset that the fact someone wears a mask to walk to the loo in a pub and its by that one fact that you choose to go to the pub or not them I'm afraid all hope for them is lost.
 

westv

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I have been a member of the SkyScraper City website since 2011, the same year as I joined this particular website.
Sorry to go off topic. I used to find that site useful for info for what was happening in Hull but it's now almost a dead part of the forum. :frown:
 

Cdd89

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Does anyone actually remember anyone begging restaurants to require masks prior to September 2020 when they were implemented? I don’t — in fact it seemed like a desperate step in response to inexorably rising cases, and one thought up entirely by the government rather than one in response to building pressure. Though perhaps there are some quotes to disprove the above recollection.

Given this, it’s very peculiar there are such calls against removing even this aspect of the requirements.
 

DelayRepay

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Does anyone actually remember anyone begging restaurants to require masks prior to September 2020 when they were implemented? I don’t — in fact it seemed like a desperate step in response to inexorably rising cases, and one thought up entirely by the government rather than one in response to building pressure. Though perhaps there are some quotes to disprove the above recollection.

Given this, it’s very peculiar there are such calls against removing even this aspect of the requirements.

I remember in June (I think it was) when they suggested masks would be needed in shops. Tesco, Sainsburys and the rest were queueing up to tell the media that they wouldn't expect their staff to enforce the rules!
 

greyman42

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What does the rest of my post say? :rolleyes:
It just seems to be masks for a few more weeks, then another few more weeks, then a few more...... That does not always give the impression of sooner rather than later.
 

TPO

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You would probably consider me to be someone who "gets muddled very easily."

I really struggled when face-coverings were announced and introduced. I'm a very rule-bound person and the fear of getting the rules, both written and unwritten, wrong with everything that changed really messed with me. I'm not exaggerating; it culminated in me breaking down in an Aldi carpark as although I had no food in the house, already lost a significant amount of weight, and was regularly being kept awake by hunger, I still couldn't force myself to enter. It was the catalyst that got me to seek answers and get diagnosed with autism.

The legal standing may be clear, but the lack of clarity in expectations and policies is not clear. All the unwritten rules of the world are hard enough to navigate for someone like me without a whole host of new ones being added as well. I was already nervous about how I would react when the rules on face-coverings changed but I didn't expect it to be as piecemeal as what we have now. For all the talk of how mandating face coverings negatively impacts people with disabilities, no one is talking about how the way in which the rules are being changed could impact the same people.

For all the stress that face-coverings brought me, and the fact that I don't find them pleasant or comfortable to wear, I'm still not convinced that relaxing the rules on them being required is a wise idea right now. Even if we hypothesise that they have absolutely zero transmission reduction benefits at all (I think they do to some degree, but that's a debate I know I'm not going to win here and has already been done to death), I do think that they still serve as a reminder that things are not normal. And I don't think that's a bad thing. Cases are rising, the number of people in hospital is rising, the number of people on ventilators is rising. Maybe it's not risen that high yet, but having everyone go hell for leather with no hesitation strikes me as a really good way to end up with those cases rising.

I'm not someone who thinks that lockdown should continue indefinitely, or that we will ever get entirely rid of COVID. I do however think that letting it spread like wildfire is a bad idea—that's how you get mutations—and that some sense and self-restraint still needs to be employed. Seeing face coverings around will be a subconscious reminder to do so if nothing else.
Sorry to hear that.

It sounds like with the extreme anxiety that mask wearing causes, you have a really good reason to not wear a mask at all so could claim an exemption. As an autistic person I struggle with hypersensitive skin and I get extremely anxious with a mask. (Also I get a nasty rash, probably not unrelated as anxiety can do strange things). Anxiety/deep fear is a really powerful thing and not to be underestimated in how rotten it makes one feel and how ill one can be with it.

So far as the transmission benefits go, I suggest you need to do a bit of research around the whole thing of Respiratory Protective Equipment (RPE). The HSE (health & safety executive) website has some good guides- thing is, RPE is a very specific category of safety equipment and when you start to understand what must be done to make a mask (RPE) effective at preventing small particles passing through then you start to realise how pointless the "face coverings" are. The HSE has done loads of detailed research and trials at their Health & Safety Laboratory over the past 20 years or so, this is what the guidance is based on. It's important for jobs like asbestos removal and anything with silica dust (all much bigger particles than a virus even one in small droplets). Understanding RPE use is part of what I've done for a living for a few years so can PM you some references if you would like. (Probably why "face coverings" are actually NOT classified as PPE a if they were we'd be into RPE standards needing to be applied ;) ).

Then a bit of a digression into the minutes from SP-IM and in parallel recognising that most scientists are neurotypicals with the social-status orientation and liquid truth that most neurotypicals exhibit.

Followed by a bit of statistical learning, and how the different things we do are likely to make us die (or not).

That's a suggested trot through underlying facts; with a bit of autistic "special interest" focus you can slowly assemble the picture from the bottom up and suddenly the world is a bit easier to understand and the fear levels subside.

Finally, being diagnosed autistic later in life is a real challenge, indeed a life-changing event for many of us. It often arises due to a "crisis" of some sort in life when previously-adequate "coping routines" break down. Been there, done that, eventually come out the other end a much more complete and content person. If you want a bit of a reading list or even a private chat-in-writing which might help the coming to terms stage which follows diagnosis (yes, there is a fairly predictable path and help along it can help get to a position of acceptance and confidence where you are liberated by- rather than defined by- the diagnosis) then please feel free to drop me a PM.

TPO
 

Jimini

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Sorry to hear that.
It sounds like with the extreme anxiety that mask wearing causes, you have a really good reason to not wear a mask at all so could claim an exemption. As an autistic person I struggle with hypersensitive skin and I get extremely anxious with a mask. (Also I get a nasty rash, probably not unrelated as anxiety can do strange things). Anxiety/deep fear is a really powerful thing and not to be underestimated in how rotten it makes one feel and how ill one can be with it.

So far as the transmission benefits go, I suggest you need to do a bit of research around the whole thing of Respiratory Protective Equipment (RPE). The HSE (health & safety executive) website has some good guides- thing is, RPE is a very specific category of safety equipment and when you start to understand what must be done to make a mask (RPE) effective at preventing small particles passing through then you start to realise how pointless the "face coverings" are. The HSE has done loads of detailed research and trials at their Health & Safety Laboratory over the past 20 years or so, this is what the guidance is based on. It's important for jobs like asbestos removal and anything with silica dust (all much bigger particles than a virus even one in small droplets). Understanding RPE use is part of what I've done for a living for a few years so can PM you some references if you would like. (Probably why "face coverings" are actually NOT classified as PPE a if they were we'd be into RPE standards needing to be applied ;) ).

Then a bit of a digression into the minutes from SP-IM and in parallel recognising that most scientists are neurotypicals with the social-status orientation and liquid truth that most neurotypicals exhibit.

Followed by a bit of statistical learning, and how the different things we do are likely to make us die (or not).

That's a suggested trot through underlying facts; with a bit of autistic "special interest" focus you can slowly assemble the picture from the bottom up and suddenly the world is a bit easier to understand and the fear levels subside.

Finally, being diagnosed autistic later in life is a real challenge, indeed a life-changing event for many of us. It often arises due to a "crisis" of some sort in life when previously-adequate "coping routines" break down. Been there, done that, eventually come out the other end a much more complete and content person. If you want a bit of a reading list or even a private chat-in-writing which might help the coming to terms stage which follows diagnosis (yes, there is a fairly predictable path and help along it can help get to a position of acceptance and confidence where you are liberated by- rather than defined by- the diagnosis) then please feel free to drop me a PM.

TPO

I’m not autistic, but just wanted to say what a lovely, supportive and informative post that was. Thank you for sharing.
 

XAM2175

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It just seems to be masks for a few more weeks, then another few more weeks, then a few more...... That does not always give the impression of sooner rather than later.
At no point have I suggested any such thing. My objection is to the government's abdication of responsibility and to the conflicting messages that are unnecessarily complicating the issue.
 

43066

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Sorry to hear that.

It sounds like with the extreme anxiety that mask wearing causes, you have a really good reason to not wear a mask at all so could claim an exemption. As an autistic person I struggle with hypersensitive skin and I get extremely anxious with a mask. (Also I get a nasty rash, probably not unrelated as anxiety can do strange things). Anxiety/deep fear is a really powerful thing and not to be underestimated in how rotten it makes one feel and how ill one can be with it.

So far as the transmission benefits go, I suggest you need to do a bit of research around the whole thing of Respiratory Protective Equipment (RPE). The HSE (health & safety executive) website has some good guides- thing is, RPE is a very specific category of safety equipment and when you start to understand what must be done to make a mask (RPE) effective at preventing small particles passing through then you start to realise how pointless the "face coverings" are. The HSE has done loads of detailed research and trials at their Health & Safety Laboratory over the past 20 years or so, this is what the guidance is based on. It's important for jobs like asbestos removal and anything with silica dust (all much bigger particles than a virus even one in small droplets). Understanding RPE use is part of what I've done for a living for a few years so can PM you some references if you would like. (Probably why "face coverings" are actually NOT classified as PPE a if they were we'd be into RPE standards needing to be applied ;) ).

Then a bit of a digression into the minutes from SP-IM and in parallel recognising that most scientists are neurotypicals with the social-status orientation and liquid truth that most neurotypicals exhibit.

Followed by a bit of statistical learning, and how the different things we do are likely to make us die (or not).

That's a suggested trot through underlying facts; with a bit of autistic "special interest" focus you can slowly assemble the picture from the bottom up and suddenly the world is a bit easier to understand and the fear levels subside.

Finally, being diagnosed autistic later in life is a real challenge, indeed a life-changing event for many of us. It often arises due to a "crisis" of some sort in life when previously-adequate "coping routines" break down. Been there, done that, eventually come out the other end a much more complete and content person. If you want a bit of a reading list or even a private chat-in-writing which might help the coming to terms stage which follows diagnosis (yes, there is a fairly predictable path and help along it can help get to a position of acceptance and confidence where you are liberated by- rather than defined by- the diagnosis) then please feel free to drop me a PM.

TPO

Absolutely great post, this place really does need a like button!
 
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