CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Bletchleyite]

I agree, but even more incredible is the rumour that 197001 was low loadered from South Wales to Donnington, railed, then loco hauled to Crewe. I am really struggling to believe that a new self powered train would need to be loco hauled, so please tell me 197001 ran under it's own power to Crewe.

It's usual to loco haul new trains until testing has been completed.

 

[craigybagel]

I agree with you in every way, I feel your frustration over this subject.
I've never seen this as such an issue, the modern toilets are very reliable.
People complain about lack of capacity constantly but once a solution is found it's the wrong solution.

The TFW franchise doesn't get the funds that others do unfortunately, plus the franchise has over 15 years no investment. So it's a huge catch up program, which takes lots of funding.

I know that TFW desperately needs more trains asap, this weekend has been a taste of how things are going to be this summer in the N Wales coast.

Can't wait to see the 197's in service asap & ideally the 175's would also be retained for certain longer routes but can't see that happening.

Thanks. But then what do we know, we only work the existing stock on the same routes day in day out

I agree, but even more incredible is the rumour that 197001 was low loadered from South Wales to Donnington, railed, then loco hauled to Crewe. I am really struggling to believe that a new self powered train would need to be loco hauled, so please tell me 197001 ran under it's own power to Crewe.

It's usual to loco haul new trains until testing has been completed.

Exactly. There's all kinds of things that need testing before you move a new train on the network, you can't just drive it straight out of the factory - and especially when it's the first of a new fleet. As it is 197001 only moved for the first time around Crewe last week, and was only due to begin mainline testing this week.

 

[Envoy]

Wonder what the Victorians would make of all this about moving new trains by road miles across the country for testing? They built their locomotive works alongside the railway so they could drive their new engines straight out for testing. At Llanwern, surely they could do a few runs up and down the line into the steel mill before being let loose on the mainline? Even the nearby mainline has 4 tracks so surely ideal for some test runs?

CAF site as shown on Google Maps:> https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5808339,-2.9090614,1163m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

 

[craigybagel]

With all due respect to the many things the Victorians were good at, safety wasn't one of them. And the signalling systems (and how trains interact and interfere with them) are a lot more different now.

 

[Wolfie]

Trains with only one toilet are not suitable for anything other than short commuter type routes where most stations have toilet facilities.

Really? Being in the South East you should know well enough that a fair proportion of commuter trains have no toilets, even when most stations don't either.

 

[XAM2175]

It does seem incredible that a new factory, purpose built for assembling trains, is not connected to the national network. If you look on Google Earth you can see for yourselves.

Exactly. There's all kinds of things that need testing before you move a new train on the network, you can't just drive it straight out of the factory - and especially when it's the first of a new fleet.

I understand that there are several good reasons why new trains can't be delivered under their own power (without at least a bit of testing beforehand), but on the movement-by-road front it does look a bit poor in light of the fact that the Class 777 units are being delivered entirely loco-hauled from Switzerland to Merseyside.

(I'm also remembering the possibly-apocryphal story of many original Class 66 deliveries involving them being transferred from ship to rail, then unwrapped and driven away under their own power - but I accept that's a bit of different situation)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really? Being in the South East you should know well enough that a fair proportion of commuter trains have no toilets, even when most stations don't either.

The South East use case is a bit different. You don't need a toilet on the way out because you used it at home before you left. On the way back travel is almost certainly from a London terminus, all of which have toilets. Merseyrail would be similar. 3-4 hour journeys in Wales are not.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

(I'm also remembering the possibly-apocryphal story of many original Class 66 deliveries involving them being transferred from ship to rail, then unwrapped and driven away under their own power - but I accept that's a bit of different situation)

This was at Newport docks, too.

Class 196/197s are hardly "new" models either, when 70-odd near-identical CAF trains (gauge, bogies, couplings etc) are already in service with Northern.
They were delivered from Spain by road to Edge Hill depot for railing.
It will no doubt be down to a particular TOC/Rosco's safety case, but still...
At least it gives Donnington freight terminal something useful to do, having hardly seen a train since it was built.

 

[Envoy]

So, large numbers of similar CAF trains are already in service but still it is deemed that they cannot be railed & tested at Llanwern leading to long road journeys to the Midlands. Why can't a locomotive be sent to simply tow them to Donnington? I thought that the whole reason for the CAF plant being at Llanwern was to have direct rail access.

 

[craigybagel]

So, large numbers of similar CAF trains are already in service but still it is deemed that they cannot be railed & tested at Llanwern leading to long road journeys to the Midlands. Why can't a locomotive be sent to simply tow them to Donnington? I thought that the whole reason for the CAF plant being at Llanwern was to have direct rail access.

Similar, but not the same.

I suspect the reason the plant has not been connected is one of those classic cases where the price quoted is astronomical, and it would take too many years to claw the money back through the deliveries being cheaper.

 

[Envoy]

Similar, but not the same.

I suspect the reason the plant has not been connected is one of those classic cases where the price quoted is astronomical, and it would take too many years to claw the money back through Tatum deliveries being cheaper.

Wonder why they don’t just lift the carriages onto the track being as they have a way of getting them onto a road vehicle?

 

[Domh245]

Wonder why they don’t just lift the carriages onto the track being as they have a way of getting them onto a road vehicle?

The lorries winch the vehicles onto themselves - no cranes or other lifting devices necessary, just a bit of straight track with rails level with the surface (and road access)

 

[PHILIPE]

Wonder why they don’t just lift the carriages onto the track being as they have a way of getting them onto a road vehicle?

You have received multiple possible reasons from railway people and others as to why the CAF Depot is not rail connected and as to why. I think we have just about exhausted everything now and anything else is just a case of going round in circles. The only thing I can suggest now is that you perhaps submit a Freedom of Information Request.

 

[Wolfie]

You have received multiple possible reasons from railway people and others as to why the CAF Depot is not rail connected and as to why. I think we have just about exhausted everything now and anything else is just a case of going round in circles. The only thing I can suggest now is that you perhaps submit a Freedom of Information Request.

To who? CAF for one are not obliged to answer, nor are the ROSCO or TOC.

 

[Dai Corner]

To who? CAF for one are not obliged to answer, nor are the ROSCO or TOC.

I think I read somewhere that Tata Steel own the tracks in the Llanwern site and have declined to allow CAF to use them.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

To who? CAF for one are not obliged to answer, nor are the ROSCO or TOC.

Surely Network Rail or the Department for Transport (or devolved equivalent) would be the ones responsible?

 

[py_megapixel]

Surely Network Rail or the Department for Transport would be the ones responsible?

Presumably it would actually be the relevant departments of the Welsh governments instead?
Or possibly not that at all, but instead whoever granted planning permission for it (asking why they didn't make a rail connection a condition of approval of the planning application) though that might be a bit of a stretch

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Presumably it would actually be the relevant departments of the Welsh governments instead?
Or possibly not that at all, but instead whoever granted planning permission for it (asking why they didn't make a rail connection a condition of approval of the planning application) though that might be a bit of a stretch

You got in ahead of my edit!

At the very least it's a bit of a PR own-goal regardless of the reasons. Though as they're diesel units the lorries carrying them aren't really worse from that perspective.

 

[Envoy]

I see that a new train testing facility is planned for Onllwyn. This is a back of beyond former open cast coal site at the top of a valley north of Swansea. In view of the situation at Llanwern, I wonder that if this facility is built at Onllwyn whether they expect new trains for testing to be taken by road along the overloaded M4 to this relatively remote area? That being the case, it seems to be rather a bonkers location to me - especially given the road up the valley. Anyway, I guess we should not discuss that here as this thread is about the 197’s. The thread on Onllwyn is here:> https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/nant-helen-110mph-test-track-rail-technology-centre.216856/

 

[anthony263]

I see that a new train testing facility is planned for Onllwyn. This is a back of beyond former open cast coal site at the top of a valley north of Swansea. In view of the situation at Llanwern, I wonder that if this facility is built at Onllwyn whether they expect new trains for testing to be taken by road along the overloaded M4 to this relatively remote area? That being the case, it seems to be rather a bonkers location to me - especially given the road up the valley. Anyway, I guess we should not discuss that here as this thread is about the 197’s. The thread on Onllwyn is here:> https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/nant-helen-110mph-test-track-rail-technology-centre.216856/

Could always take them by road to swansea burrows yard then haul them to the test centre

 

[craigybagel]

In a rare appearance of actual news on this thread, here's a YouTube link of 197002 being hauled to Crewe today.

 

[krus_aragon]

a rare appearance of actual news on this thread

We rejoice!!!

(On a more serious note, thanks.)

 

[kennythelad]

Not news I’m afraid, but does any one know what the two 197’s are at Crewe LNWR, this afternoon, please?. (197001/002?)

 

[6Gtraincrew]

Not news I’m afraid, but does any one know what the two 197’s are at Crewe LNWR, this afternoon, please?. (197001/002?)

001 and 002. They are the only ones that have made their way to Crewe so far.

 

[kennythelad]

001 and 002. They are the only ones that have made their way to Crewe so far.

Thanks very much.

 

[Philip]

If there are no unexpected delays, when approximately do we think the first 197s will enter service? There are two on the mainline now so I can't see it being too long?

 

[berneyarms]

If there are no unexpected delays, when approximately do we think the first 197s will enter service? There are two on the mainline now so I can't see it being too long?

There are two delivered to Crewe.
They have yet to actually start testing on the mainline yet. First of all the maintenance team need to be trained up on them.

The trains need to achieve fault-free testing over a certain distance as it is a brand new type of unit, that alone will take several months. That will be done using drivers from Rail Operations Group apparently (source is current edition of North Wales Coast Railway News - http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm). The first units always have a longer testing requirement to attain clearance.

Then TfW drivers and guards will need to be trained up as well on them. That's going to take months too.

Take the Class 195 testing process as an example:
First unit delivered to Northern in June 2018; Started mainline testing in September 2018; Entered service in July 2019.

It is going to take time. Maybe not quite as long - but I would think it will be next year (Spring).

 

[craigybagel]

There are two delivered to Crewe.
They have yet to actually start testing on the mainline yet. First of all the maintenance team need to be trained up on them.

The trains need to achieve fault-free testing over a certain distance as it is a brand new type of unit, that alone will take several months. That will be done using drivers from Rail Operations Group apparently (source is current edition of North Wales Coast Railway News - http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm). The first units always have a longer testing requirement to attain clearance.

Then TfW drivers and guards will need to be trained up as well on them. That's going to take months too.

Take the Class 195 testing process as an example:
First unit delivered to Northern in June 2018; Started mainline testing in September 2018; Entered service in July 2019.

It is going to take time. Maybe not quite as long - but I would think it will be next year (Spring).

All correct. Fault free running I'd contracted by CAF rather than TfW, hence using ROG drivers.

I'd be amazed if it's not 2022 at the earliest for an entry into service. In any case, it gives time for all the other training that needs to take place right now (MKIV, 230, 769 and a massive backlog of route learning) on top of the regular day to day things.

 

[Philip]

There are two delivered to Crewe.
They have yet to actually start testing on the mainline yet. First of all the maintenance team need to be trained up on them.

The trains need to achieve fault-free testing over a certain distance as it is a brand new type of unit, that alone will take several months. That will be done using drivers from Rail Operations Group apparently (source is current edition of North Wales Coast Railway News - http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm). The first units always have a longer testing requirement to attain clearance.

Then TfW drivers and guards will need to be trained up as well on them. That's going to take months too.

Take the Class 195 testing process as an example:
First unit delivered to Northern in June 2018; Started mainline testing in September 2018; Entered service in July 2019.

It is going to take time. Maybe not quite as long - but I would think it will be next year (Spring).

Thanks. I was thinking about the 185s and 175s though. I seem to remember the first 185 was delivered to Longsight around Christmas 2005; they entered passenger service in March 2006.

Class 175s took about 6 months between delivery and first entering service, and that was with numerous problems.

 

[berneyarms]

Thanks. I was thinking about the 185s and 175s though. I seem to remember the first 185 was delivered to Longsight around Christmas 2005; they entered passenger service in March 2006.

Class 175s took about 6 months between delivery and first entering service, and that was with numerous problems.

You aren't comparing like with like though.

The Class 185 had extensive testing at Wildenwrath though before all that from mid-2005. These units have not had that yet - that's going to happen on the North Wales coast. They are starting from scratch now. So you still looking at 9-10 months before they are likely to enter service.

The Class 175 had seven months between starting testing and entering service.

The point is that TfW have not accepted the units yet. They're the property of CAF until the actual mainline testing is completed. They are not "delivered" as such at this time.

I really do think that it would be more appropriate to compare the Class 195 and Class 197 in terms of rollout than trains from 20 years ago.