• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

6Gtraincrew

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2018
Messages
439
I was quite surprised at the space in the cab actually. 2nd man's seat folds forward and locks into position. Right hand side drivers panel folds outwards, so giving more space.

It's far from a great photo, as it was taken through the glass, but does give an idea of the space. Obviously though, he window is small.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20210624_095909.jpg
    IMG_20210624_095909.jpg
    3.7 MB · Views: 295

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
How long they spend on the train is irrelvant to the need for gangways - the need for them is:
  • to allow the guard to get through
  • to allow the catering trolley (if provided) to get through
  • shortly after boarding, to allow passengers to walk through to find a (prefered) seat
  • shortly after boarding, having used the nearest door while rushing to make a tight connection, to move to the correct portion for their destination
  • shortly after being told by the guard that they are in the wrong portion for their destination, to move to the correct portion
  • shortly before the train divides, to move the correct portion, having sat in the wrong portion due to lack of (prefered) seat availability in the correct portion
  • to reach an alternative toilet if the nearest one is occupied or out of order (particularly important on suburban stock like the Civity DMUs which have limited toilet provision)
Add:-

For passengers to be able to contact the guard in the event of problems if in the other portion.
 

Neptune

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2018
Messages
2,444
Location
Yorkshire
Add:-

For passengers to be able to contact the guard in the event of problems if in the other portion.
The PASSCOM’s on modern units put you straight through to the driver without applying the brakes. Quicker than walking the length of the train.

Even the 333’a have this feature and they’re over 20 years old.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,061
I was quite surprised at the space in the cab actually. 2nd man's seat folds forward and locks into position. Right hand side drivers panel folds outwards, so giving more space.

It's far from a great photo, as it was taken through the glass, but does give an idea of the space. Obviously though, he window is small.
That looks pretty decent to be fair, better than I expected. I'm looking forward to some of the luxury features like a bin that's actually inside the cab :lol:

Also nice to see that unlike the farce with the awkwardly placed saloon panels on the Northern units these have door control panels in the cab for guards to use.
 

wobman

On Moderation
Joined
2 Jan 2011
Messages
1,233
There are pro and cons to gangway equipped units, the downside being a poorer cab environment for the driver and a detrimental effect on drivers visibility for right side signals. But the gangway gives more flexibility for unit usage, especially the way TFW plan on running future services. There's going to be far more units coupling and uncoupling in the future.
 

Neptune

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2018
Messages
2,444
Location
Yorkshire
Also nice to see that unlike the farce with the awkwardly placed saloon panels on the Northern units these have door control panels in the cab for guards to use.
That’s the bonus of power operated cab doors. Our units wouldn’t be so bad if the door panels were opposite each other instead of staggered. At least at the doors nearest the cab should have been adjacent but then I guess they were designed not to have guard door controls at all.

I assume they’ll be very similar to our units when it comes to the door controls with ASDO and ASDO override etc. Takes a bit of getting used to but once you’ve worked them a couple of times it all becomes 2nd nature.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,061
That’s the bonus of power operated cab doors. Our units wouldn’t be so bad if the door panels were opposite each other instead of staggered. At least at the doors nearest the cab should have been adjacent but then I guess they were designed not to have guard door controls at all.

I assume they’ll be very similar to our units when it comes to the door controls with ASDO and ASDO override etc. Takes a bit of getting used to but once you’ve worked them a couple of times it all becomes 2nd nature.
Indeed - it just seems like a very awkward work around that Northern came up with. I'm grateful that TfW had the guards guarantee in place at the time of the 197s being ordered and they've been given proper facilities for working the train.

I noticed on the TMS screen in the photo above there is a mention of ASDO although it's too blurry to work out exactly what is being said. The TfW units will be regularly calling at short platforms so it'll be interesting to see how it all works in practice.
 

Neptune

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2018
Messages
2,444
Location
Yorkshire
I’ve never had a problem with ASDO locking off the doors it needs to on short platforms. If ASDO does fail then there is the override which means you can control which doors you open.

It’s a good system and should work well in Wales.
 

XAM2175

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2016
Messages
3,469
Location
Glasgow
I think they look quite good, actually.

My one question re the gangway - given that the gangway is on the other side of the cab-to-saloon door, how obvious is it to the passenger that the gangway is available for use in those circumstances when it is?
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,623
Location
Another planet...
I think they look quite good, actually.

My one question re the gangway - given that the gangway is on the other side of the cab-to-saloon door, how obvious is it to the passenger that the gangway is available for use in those circumstances when it is?
Would it not be the same as in existing units with gangways. Basically what is the cab door when the cab is in use, becomes the panel sealing off one side of the cab area, (with the gangway door doing the opposite side). The gangway then becomes open to the vestibule or saloon, so is obviously available to passengers.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,266
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
There seems to be very little or no strategic application of where First Class is or isn't needed. It just turns up, or doesn't, where the rolling stock has it.

First Class used to be provided on express services between Manchester Airport and Blackpool North, where it was always well-used, but it has been completely withdrawn now.
In the good old days when TPE ran the Manchester Airport to Windermere service with their Class 185 units, my good lady wife and I always pre-booked First Class seats to ensure of a relaxed journey both ways.

Of course, with Northern now running both the Blackpool and Windermere services, all this is now just a memory from the past.
 
Last edited:

Tynwald

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2016
Messages
175
The CAF ASDO is in all fairness pretty good. with backup modes that work well. TCMS on CAF stuff is good also. some excellant features.
 

wobman

On Moderation
Joined
2 Jan 2011
Messages
1,233
The ROG drivers are driving the TFW 197 units on test, it's nice to see the units at Chester and Llandudno junction. They even got on the Conwy valley line on there travels, there's lots of pics popping up of 197002 on its travels along the N Wales coast.
 

anamyd

On Moderation
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
3,011
Sorry if I missed it as I'm not on here much at the moment, but does anyone know what's happening to the 197s that have first class now that the more Mark 4 sets are happening...?
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,061
Sorry if I missed it as I'm not on here much at the moment, but does anyone know what's happening to the 197s that have first class now that the more Mark 4 sets are happening...?
Good question. Nothing's been said publicly about that one yet.
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,042
Location
North Wales
The original franchise documents specified that while X number of 197s were to support conversion to first class (i.e. all delivered as standard initially), the contracts were flexible as to how many would actually keep first class in the long term. The service could have flopped and then been withdrawn, after all!

As there's no need for a major change in the existing contract, it might not be a big enough issue to announce publicly. There might not be a final decision on what to do with them either, though I strongly suspect that there are interim plans given that they've spent hard money buying the Mark IVs.
 

Mollman

Established Member
Joined
21 Sep 2016
Messages
1,210
Sorry if I missed it as I'm not on here much at the moment, but does anyone know what's happening to the 197s that have first class now that the more Mark 4 sets are happening...?
Make sense to have 1st class on all Manc - Swansea and Cardiff - N Wales trains
 

Rhydgaled

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2010
Messages
4,568
Make sense to have 1st class on all Manc - Swansea and Cardiff - N Wales trains
There were more than enough 197s with first class in the franchise spec to do all Swansea-Manchesters anyway - we don't know whether KeolisAmey planned to use the rest on Cardiff-Holyheads, but if they had it would have left the Cardiff-Liverpool services as the only Cardiff-N.Wales trains (I know Liverpool isn't north Wales, but Wrexham is) without first class. If TfW/WAG are still persisting with the hypocritical idea of building 77 diesel-mechanical units while asking Westminster for more electrification, then would the four units released by the mark 4s on Manchesters be sufficient to cover the Cardiff-Liverpool workings?

Alternatively, the franchise spec called for some of the first class units to be delivered as either 'first class ready' or with declassified first class. If they went down the 'first class ready' route, these units were to be converted to the full 'first class fitted' specification at some point after introduction (2024 if I recall correctly). I wonder whether the possibility of additional mark 4s was always at the back of their minds and that the 'first class ready' option was there so that they could easily reduce the number of first class units - by not going ahead with the convertion from 'first class ready' to 'first class fitted' when the time comes.
 

tomuk

Established Member
Joined
15 May 2010
Messages
1,953
There were more than enough 197s with first class in the franchise spec to do all Swansea-Manchesters anyway - we don't know whether KeolisAmey planned to use the rest on Cardiff-Holyheads, but if they had it would have left the Cardiff-Liverpool services as the only Cardiff-N.Wales trains (I know Liverpool isn't north Wales, but Wrexham is) without first class. If TfW/WAG are still persisting with the hypocritical idea of building 77 diesel-mechanical units while asking Westminster for more electrification, then would the four units released by the mark 4s on Manchesters be sufficient to cover the Cardiff-Liverpool workings?

Alternatively, the franchise spec called for some of the first class units to be delivered as either 'first class ready' or with declassified first class. If they went down the 'first class ready' route, these units were to be converted to the full 'first class fitted' specification at some point after introduction (2024 if I recall correctly). I wonder whether the possibility of additional mark 4s was always at the back of their minds and that the 'first class ready' option was there so that they could easily reduce the number of first class units - by not going ahead with the convertion from 'first class ready' to 'first class fitted' when the time comes.
Personally I don't believe there should be any first class on any non INTERCITY tocs. More standard class seats of better comfort would be a greater benefit. Putting 1st on the 197s is just more self aggrandisement by the WG/TfW.
 

Rhydgaled

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2010
Messages
4,568
Personally I don't believe there should be any first class on any non INTERCITY tocs. More standard class seats of better comfort would be a greater benefit. Putting 1st on the 197s is just more self aggrandisement by the WG/TfW.
I'm not sure about the idea of there being INTERCITY TOCs and non-INTERCITY TOCs, clearly there are some TOCs where their entire business is INTERCITY services but there are also some with a mix of service types. There are also grey areas between the different service types, most obviously the Swansea-Manchester route which is borderline between INTERCITY and Regional Express. I don't think I would argue against removing first class from suburban stock, such as SWR's class 450s, but I'm less sure about things like TPE and SWR's Portsmouth and Weymouth fasts - perhaps that suggests those services are a bit 'intercityish' as well?

Putting 1st on the 197s is a complete waste of time though - they are suburban stock through and through and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near most of what KeolisAmey ordered them to work.
 

mmh

Established Member
Joined
13 Aug 2016
Messages
3,744
The ROG drivers are driving the TFW 197 units on test, it's nice to see the units at Chester and Llandudno junction. They even got on the Conwy valley line on there travels, there's lots of pics popping up of 197002 on its travels along the N Wales coast.

Yes, I've seen one a few times at Llandudno Junction. I see that, as usual for a middle-doored train, it looks like luggage racks were thought unnecessary. Given the very long-distance routes they're planned to operate this seems a poor decision, and I really hope I'm wrong and I just didn't see them.

That livery, particularly the red door/gangway, is shocking - truly dire!

A bit harsh, it's just grey with red doors, like all other TFW units. I do think it's a shame the body side doesn't have anywhere to put a large "T" logo on the upper body as with most of the other classes - an unusual branding point which I've grown to really quite like.
 

Rhydgaled

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2010
Messages
4,568
Yes, I've seen one a few times at Llandudno Junction. I see that, as usual for a middle-doored train, it looks like luggage racks were thought unnecessary. Given the very long-distance routes they're planned to operate this seems a poor decision, and I really hope I'm wrong and I just didn't see them.
Presumably they will have overhead racks? Most trains do after all, and I'm told that the Civity platform's overhead racks are very spacious.

As far as luggage stacks on the floor are concerned, the seat plans show one per carriage (excluding the driving motor composites). In the DMSL and MSL coaches there is one luggage stack (650mm long) shown next to the bike space. The DMS vehicles meanwhile are shown to have an 844mm long luggage stack just behind the leading set of doors on the driver's right-hand side (assuming this coach is at the front of the train at the time). Finally, a pair of luggage stacks (each 494mm long) are shown in the driving motor composite, one either side of the corridor in front of the leading set of doors. This means there were no luggage stacks planned in standard class on the driving motor composite vehicles.

I can't find my measurements for the existing fleets at the moment but if I recall correctly both the 175s and 158s have more luggage stack area on the floor plan than the 197s. Think one of the luggage stacks on a 158 is over a metre long.

A bit harsh, it's just grey with red doors, like all other TFW units. I do think it's a shame the body side doesn't have anywhere to put a large "T" logo on the upper body as with most of the other classes - an unusual branding point which I've grown to really quite like.
The other TfW units still have yellow ends - even the 230s which were originally shown with red ends - and most have a black surround to the windows.
 

Sean Emmett

Member
Joined
9 Mar 2015
Messages
496
Presumably they will have overhead racks? Most trains do after all, and I'm told that the Civity platform's overhead racks are very spacious.

I can't find my measurements for the existing fleets at the moment but if I recall correctly both the 175s and 158s have more luggage stack area on the floor plan than the 197s. Think one of the luggage stacks on a 158 is over a metre long.
I hope the 197 do indeed have decent overhead luggage racks.

I travel from Bristol to North Wales a few times a year with a bog standard 60 litre rucksack, which doesn't fit in the quick frankly pathetic overhead racks on a 175, result in much unnecessary luggage on seats.

If anyone is going to take on the 175s I trust they will fit new overhead racks!
 

childwallblues

Established Member
Joined
3 Jul 2014
Messages
2,823
Location
Liverpool, UK
I hope the 197 do indeed have decent overhead luggage racks.

I travel from Bristol to North Wales a few times a year with a bog standard 60 litre rucksack, which doesn't fit in the quick frankly pathetic overhead racks on a 175, result in much unnecessary luggage on seats.

If anyone is going to take on the 175s I trust they will fit new overhead racks!
I don't think that the 175s have any home to go to when they leave TfW.
 

wobman

On Moderation
Joined
2 Jan 2011
Messages
1,233
I don't think that the 175s have any home to go to when they leave TfW.
I wish TFW would retain the 175's for the long distance work, it won't happen unfortunately. They are nice units now after all the problems got resolved and the passengers like them on long journeys with their high toilets provision compared to the 197's being another advantage.
 

Jez

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2011
Messages
1,231
Location
Neath
I think if there is enough space to provide first class, which there clearly will be between Swansea-Manchester with 5 carriages, then it should be provided. The Swansea-Manchester should be intercity IMO as its covering 2 major cities Cardiff and Manchester one of which is a capital city, another is seen as the capital of North England. Also there is Hereford and big towns such as Shrewsbury. It should be limited stop only calling at Neath, Port Talbot, Bridgend, Cardiff, Newport, Hereford, Shrewsbury, Crewe, Wilmslow and Stockport. All smaller stops should be picked up by a stopping service that runs hourly between Cardiff-Shrewsbury/Crewe in between the Manchester services.

I understand the plan is to run a Cardiff-Shrewsbury stopper with an extension to Liverpool every 2 hours.
 

Top