Caledonian Sleeper

[route101]

Is the breakfast in the lounge still a microwaved affair?

 

[trebor79]

Is the breakfast in the lounge still a microwaved affair?

I don't think you can get brekkie in the lounge at the moment. Pre-COVID I don't think it was microwaved. If it was I'm astonished, I had poached eggs with salmon and hollandaise sauce - very nice it was too and I can't imagine how it could possibly have been prepared in a microwave.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't think you can get brekkie in the lounge at the moment. Pre-COVID I don't think it was microwaved. If it was I'm astonished, I had poached eggs with salmon and hollandaise sauce - very nice it was too and I can't imagine how it could possibly have been prepared in a microwave.

The bacon sarnie I had in Nov 2019 didn't strike me as microwaved.

 

[JModulo]

The bacon sarnie I had in Nov 2019 didn't strike me as microwaved.

I don't think you can get brekkie in the lounge at the moment. Pre-COVID I don't think it was microwaved. If it was I'm astonished, I had poached eggs with salmon and hollandaise sauce - very nice it was too and I can't imagine how it could possibly have been prepared in a microwave.

Theres only some options which are served in the lounge, the full cooked english being one. The current food is all precooked and only finished off in either the microwave or oven, so isn't freshly prepared like LNER. I believe there may be plans in the future to change this though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Theres only some options which are served in the lounge, the full cooked english being one. The current food is all precooked and only finished off in either the microwave or oven, so isn't freshly prepared like LNER. I believe there may be plans in the future to change this though.

If a proper, sit-down fancy restaurant car can ever really work on the UK's rail system, the Fort William is it.

 

[Essexman]

The bacon rolls on the sleeper are excellent. Better than they were under Scotrail. I suspect they are pre-cooked then heated in a microwave (or combined microwave / oven). They seem like the ones Wrexham & Shropshire used to sell where just the bacon was cooked on the train and far better than the GWR and Greater Anglia ones that were / are put into the microwave as a complete item and tend to be somewhat limp.

 

[route101]

Theres only some options which are served in the lounge, the full cooked english being one. The current food is all precooked and only finished off in either the microwave or oven, so isn't freshly prepared like LNER. I believe there may be plans in the future to change this though.

Was in the buffet car on LNER and they had the breakfasts in boxes, looks like they heat them up, thought it was all cooked fresh?

 

[MrEd]

It's not nonsense , First Class get priority, so will book their time when the scenic option is there , leaving others the stunning views of suburban Glasgow. .

You can’t book seats in the lounge car. CS were thinking of introducing a booking system but that was never implemented. In the mornings the staff will put breakfast trays out for first class passengers who have booked breakfast but generally there is still space (particularly on the bar stools); you are free to sit at any place without a tray. I have always been able to stay in the lounge in the morning on the Fort William section for as long as I’ve wanted (whether first or standard). Even on busy days in high summer.

Really,? the Fort William portion?
Breakfast was always busy in previous years all Tables taken in the old stock.

You were always free to sit on the couches in standard in the old stock going to Fort William (or in the spare seats if it was one of the ones with the fixed seats). With the modern club cars you can sit at the bar stools which are generally not used for breakfast.

I have never had a Club Room and i am usually too occupied with sorting out stuff for the day ahead to want to use it in the morning, however i have found that by visiting the lounge for a drink at about 11pm there was usually enough space that i was not challenged on whether i was 'First Class' including during the Mark 3 days when i was in 'standard class'. However i tend to travel Thursday night so it could be busy on a Friday and since the advent of the new stock i am happy to remain in the room. In the days when standard class meant you could end up sharing i always booked first class. Apart from the advantage of single occupancy i also recall that a half decent breakfast was included as well as use of the First Class lounge. When they abolished 'sharing with a stranger' i still recall a few First Class trips. Cant really remember why i would have paid extra but think it may have been that a) this was all they had left or b) in those days this was the premium you paid for being able to cancel?

In practice the lounge is so rarely restricted to first class that it’s simply not worth worrying about. Thursday night northbound is generally even busier than Friday (and has the more regimented London crew); even in the busy Inverness lounge car on a Friday I've been sitting with passengers in standard and there’s never been any attempt to restrict the lounge to first. The only times (in practice) it would ever happen would be if one of the lounge cars in the train was out of action and the whole train (Inverness, Aberdeen and Fort William) had to use the one lounge car.

 

[JModulo]

Was in the buffet car on LNER and they had the breakfasts in boxes, looks like they heat them up, thought it was all cooked fresh?

Was the first class offerings I was thinking of.

 

[221129]

Does anyone know what time reservations close at all please?

 

[paul1609]

You can’t book seats in the lounge car. CS were thinking of introducing a booking system but that was never implemented. In the mornings the staff will put breakfast trays out for first class passengers who have booked breakfast but generally there is still space (particularly on the bar stools); you are free to sit at any place without a tray. I have always been able to stay in the lounge in the morning on the Fort William section for as long as I’ve wanted (whether first or standard). Even on busy days in high summer.


You were always free to sit on the couches in standard in the old stock going to Fort William (or in the spare seats if it was one of the ones with the fixed seats). With the modern club cars you can sit at the bar stools which are generally not used for breakfast.


In practice the lounge is so rarely restricted to first class that it’s simply not worth worrying about. Thursday night northbound is generally even busier than Friday (and has the more regimented London crew); even in the busy Inverness lounge car on a Friday I've been sitting with passengers in standard and there’s never been any attempt to restrict the lounge to first. The only times (in practice) it would ever happen would be if one of the lounge cars in the train was out of action and the whole train (Inverness, Aberdeen and Fort William) had to use the one lounge car.

Ive never seen the lounge restricted on the highlander (Aberdeen/Fort William section) either. However I have seen it on the Glasgow portion of the lowlander on quite a few occasions. Normally on a Thursday/Friday Night northbound.

 

[TimboM]

Does anyone know what time reservations close at all please?

I *think* it’s 20:00.

 

[221129]

I *think* it’s 20:00.

Thank you very much, that sounds about right.

 

[vlad]

In practice the lounge is so rarely restricted to first class that it’s simply not worth worrying about....

I've travelled once (Sunday night, from London to Inverness, on the old stock) where the lounge was restricted to first-class passengers. The staff were also not allowing tables to be shared so there was plenty of empty space.

On the return journey the lounge was closed....

 

[MrEd]

I've travelled once (Sunday night, from London to Inverness, on the old stock) where the lounge was restricted to first-class passengers. The staff were also not allowing tables to be shared so there was plenty of empty space.

On the return journey the lounge was closed....

Not allowing tables to be shared, even if both parties are willing to share the table? That is honestly ridiculous but I know for myself (from personal experience) that some of the London crews actively enforce it, with common sense scattered to the four winds. I actually laughed out loud when that rule was enforced! Well, almost- it meant that I had to wait over an hour for my dinner when the train wasn’t even that busy.

Unfortunately that sort of blind adherence to regulations (even to the point of defying common sense) typifies the attitude of some (not all) of the London crews (as it would have been on a Sunday night out of London) and is one of the reasons why some regular travellers plan their journeys so they get the Scottish crew instead. Harsh but true. I certainly try to go with a Scottish crew whenever possible as I know I will get a nice welcome and good service. The truth is that a majority of the London crew are every bit as good as their Scottish counterparts but they are let down by some extremely below par members (particularly one or two of the more senior team leaders) who cannot manage even basic courtesies, let alone the five star customer service that Serco are trying to sell as part of their ‘hotel in wheels’.

I don’t have enough experience of these operators to comment, but lots of folk say that London-based catering crews have that attitude on LNER and Avanti too, whereas their northern English and Scottish equivalents tend to be much more laid back and nicer to the customers.

The CS staff members I know well are all Scottish based (Inverness and Fort William), and when I asked them about the ‘no sharing tables’ rule, they alluded to an incident back in about 2017 in which a drunk male passenger had acted inappropriately in front of some females he was sharing the table with (whatever you make of that- clearly something to take seriously but not necessarily requiring a knee-jerk draconian response). But apparently staff still have discretion whether to enforce it or not, and most staff don‘t as it defies common sense to do so. Most passengers just keep themselves to themselves and staff can surely keep an especial eye on anyone who is inebriated or acting inappropriately (or better, refuse them service). At the end of the day, before Covid, sharing tables with strangers was the norm on day trains all the time; why is a staffed lounge car any more high risk? If it is then fair enough, but I don’t see why sharing tables with strangers in the lounge is a problem as long as staff are present and alcohol consumption is regulated.

Ive never seen the lounge restricted on the highlander (Aberdeen/Fort William section) either. However I have seen it on the Glasgow portion of the lowlander on quite a few occasions. Normally on a Thursday/Friday Night northbound.

I forget about the Lowlander as I so rarely use it (and on the odd occasion that I do, the time of departure is so late that I just go straight to the berth and don’t even think about the lounge).

 

[47271]

Lounge etiquette never got fully established on the new stock before everything went pop, but on the Highlander over the past ten years or so and, as MrEd says (the reference to Thursday evenings northbound is spot on) it was pretty much a free for all for anyone travelling in the beds.

And I don't mean free for all in a good way. Table sharing was never a problem, other than for the brief period that CS decided it was (also see MrEd above), but once every seat was occupied around 845pm, a BUSY Thursday night in the Inverness lounge would make the place look like a crowded bar. People not only standing in the lounge itself, but I recall on one occasion also half way down the corridor of the first sleeping car. Think of a crammed posh Chelsea pub but hurtling along at 80mph in a mk2 with grabbing brakes. 'Oh darling, you've split your drink, are you alright?'

Things would generally start to empty out just after 10pm and the standees would get themselves a table. By Crewe it was only ever the real hard core drinkers left.

 

[Bald Rick]

By Crewe it was only ever the real hard core drinkers left.

Same on the lowlander when I used it in 2019

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not allowing tables to be shared, even if both parties are willing to share the table? That is honestly ridiculous but I know for myself (from personal experience) that some of the London crews actively enforce it, with common sense scattered to the four winds. I actually laughed out loud when that rule was enforced! Well, almost- it meant that I had to wait over an hour for my dinner when the train wasn’t even that busy.

Interestingly on VIA Rail Canada you are required to share a table if your party doesn't take all seats. If you want to sit on your own or in a two there are the bar stools.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Interestingly on VIA Rail Canada you are required to share a table if your party doesn't take all seats. If you want to sit on your own or in a two there are the bar stools.

Amtrak has always been similar with its dining cars over sharing tables

 

[nlogax]

Amtrak has always been similar with its dining cars over sharing tables

..which has for me always been a highlight of their long distance services. Random conversations with complete strangers.

 

[MrEd]

..which has for me always been a highlight of their long distance services. Random conversations with complete strangers.

That was a highlight of the old sleeper until CS started getting funny about it.

I wonder if, in all reality, this was nothing to do with passenger safety or security, and that CS were trying to appeal to some particularly snobbish types who thought that sharing a table was beneath them (using safety as a convenient excuse)? The kind of arrogant, moneyed ‘hunting and fishing’ type customer whom CS could imagine buying one of their double rooms and spending over £100 in the lounge on food, wine and whisky of an evening. There are sadly folk like that in this world and they’re probably more likely than most to be big spenders given the right circumstances.

Sad for the rest of us. But I am optimistic that the train and its lounge car will regain its soul (which it has been missing for some years) after the pandemic has passed. I am crossing every finger too that CS will alter its business model and gear it more towards ordinary travellers rather than moneyed tourists (the latter would of course still be welcome just as they were in Scotrail days). That way the train and its lounge will become a fantastic, friendly place for meeting people from all walks of life, just as it was in Scotrail days before about 2017. I have some amazing memories of those times; the stock may have been knackered but (because no one made the sleeper out to be something that it wasn’t) everyone seemed to love the experience, for all its shortcomings.

Come on Transport Scotland and CS, advertise the sleeper for what it is, a high quality sleeper train, not what it can never be, a hotel on wheels, and price it appropriately.

 

[Bald Rick]

Come on Transport Scotland and CS, advertise the sleeper for what it is, a high quality sleeper train, not what it can never be, a hotel on wheels, and price it appropriately.

That all depends on the return of inbound tourism. I gather that CS had little difficulty filling both trains at the prices charged pre-Covid; assuming the tourists do return it’s a safe bet the same will apply.

 

[47271]

That was a highlight of the old sleeper until CS started getting funny about it.

I wonder if, in all reality, this was nothing to do with passenger safety or security, and that CS were trying to appeal to some particularly snobbish types who thought that sharing a table was beneath them (using safety as a convenient excuse)? The kind of arrogant, moneyed ‘hunting and fishing’ type customer whom CS could imagine buying one of their double rooms and spending over £100 in the lounge on food, wine and whisky of an evening. There are sadly folk like that in this world and they’re probably more likely than most to be big spenders given the right circumstances.

Sad for the rest of us. But I am optimistic that the train and its lounge car will regain its soul (which it has been missing for some years) after the pandemic has passed. I am crossing every finger too that CS will alter its business model and gear it more towards ordinary travellers rather than moneyed tourists (the latter would of course still be welcome just as they were in Scotrail days). That way the train and its lounge will become a fantastic, friendly place for meeting people from all walks of life, just as it was in Scotrail days before about 2017. I have some amazing memories of those times; the stock may have been knackered but (because no one made the sleeper out to be something that it wasn’t) everyone seemed to love the experience, for all its shortcomings.

Come on Transport Scotland and CS, advertise the sleeper for what it is, a high quality sleeper train, not what it can never be, a hotel on wheels, and price it appropriately.

None of us really know where the table sharing rule came from, but we all know that it lasted for hardly any time at all.

Now, I'm sure we wouldn't want to personalise the hunting and shooting point, but your remark reminded me of a story told to me by a Fort William regular.

He was in the lounge surrounded by a large party in the company of an individual closely associated with the sleeper, I think you probably know who I mean?

The braying poshness combined with the crew scuttling around in domestic service was starting to become quite wearing. At that point one of the party remarked to my contact how marvellous the experience was, in particular the combination of the scenery and the amazing hospitality delivered.

The reply, which ended the conversation, was to the effect that the experience might be amazing for you, but I've been waiting for over an hour for a drink.

The attitudes giving rise to this incident shouldn't be underestimated as a factor in some of the business challenges faced by CS.

 

[ashkeba]

The reply, which ended the conversation, was to the effect that the experience might be amazing for you, but I've been waiting for over an hour for a drink.

A gin and orange, a lemon squash and a scotch and water, please?

 

[MrEd]

None of us really know where the table sharing rule came from, but we all know that it lasted for hardly any time at all.

Now, I'm sure we wouldn't want to personalise the hunting and shooting point, but your remark reminded me of a story told to me by a Fort William regular.

He was in the lounge surrounded by a large party in the company of an individual closely associated with the sleeper, I think you probably know who I mean?

The braying poshness combined with the crew scuttling around in domestic service was starting to become quite wearing. At that point one of the party remarked to my contact how marvellous the experience was, in particular the combination of the scenery and the amazing hospitality delivered.

The reply, which ended the conversation, was to the effect that the experience might be amazing for you, but I've been waiting for over an hour for a drink.

The attitudes giving rise to this incident shouldn't be underestimated as a factor in some of the business challenges faced by CS.

I can only imagine. It must be a hard service to run. A lot of the time (pre-pandemic) it seemed as though there were tourists who raved about it and also tourists who found fault with every aspect. In the middle were the ordinary folk travelling for work/visiting family who were generally satisfied with the service but annoyed by basic things like punctuality/electrical faults/poor communication when things went wrong. Catering to the diverse needs of such a diverse range of users must be very hard and I don’t envy the management having to make some tough decisions.

In a way it’s perhaps been easier to run during the pandemic as all the passengers just stay isolated in their berths for the whole trip (the upside of this is that announcements from the train managers are far more frequent as this ensures face-to-face contact is kept to a minimum), though it must be very hard for the staff with all the social distancing, constant mask wearing and other Covid-safe protocols. I must say that I was very happy with the way the sleeper was run last summer and the few passengers I spoke to before boarding at Euston and Inverness seemed happy with it too. It’s ironic that the most positive comments I’ve heard in a long time have been when the service level has been at its most reduced because of the pandemic. At the end of the day, they got where they needed to be on time in a Covid-secure environment and had a reasonable sleep- nothing more you can actually say about the 2020 sleeper experience, for obvious reasons, and I’d rather that the staff stayed safe. One or two minor complaints were overheard because the lounge car was closed, but it’s not as though CS haven’t made that crystal clear (and common sense ought to tell you that it’s simply not feasible in the middle of Covid).

 

[gingerheid]

I can only imagine. It must be a hard service to run. A lot of the time (pre-pandemic) it seemed as though there were tourists who raved about it and also tourists who found fault with every aspect. In the middle were the ordinary folk travelling for work/visiting family who were generally satisfied with the service but annoyed by basic things like punctuality/electrical faults/poor communication when things went wrong. Catering to the diverse needs of such a diverse range of users must be very hard and I don’t envy the management having to make some tough decisions.

It's a shame that the modern service is operated so much at capacity and separately from the rest of the network. It can't try different innovations which would be disproportionately expensive.

The (in Before Covid days) number of overnight buses from Scotland to London (and lets face it, that's an awful way to travel in anyone's book) made me think extra one or two seated carriages could have been added to each route. The time when they had both sets of stock could have been a time to try out the budget market / different departure times / different routes.

But in a world with no spare staff / no spare platform length / no spare lifetime left in rolling stock / no spare compatible seated carriages / no spare capacity in any respect... the service is stuck in a little corner from which it can't escape. It can't try and find out whether it could have been different things to different people.

 

[paul1609]

None of us really know where the table sharing rule came from, but we all know that it lasted for hardly any time at all.

Now, I'm sure we wouldn't want to personalise the hunting and shooting point, but your remark reminded me of a story told to me by a Fort William regular.

He was in the lounge surrounded by a large party in the company of an individual closely associated with the sleeper, I think you probably know who I mean?

The braying poshness combined with the crew scuttling around in domestic service was starting to become quite wearing. At that point one of the party remarked to my contact how marvellous the experience was, in particular the combination of the scenery and the amazing hospitality delivered.

The reply, which ended the conversation, was to the effect that the experience might be amazing for you, but I've been waiting for over an hour for a drink.

The attitudes giving rise to this incident shouldn't be underestimated as a factor in some of the business challenges faced by CS.

Until I retired two years ago I was a fairly regular user of the Fort William Sleeper but not enough to consider myself a "regular".
In all that time I'd only identified 2 people Id considered to be "regulars". One of these owns the hotel at Bridge of Orchy and the other was the now deceased Lord Braybrooke sometimes accompanied by his wife. I've shared tables with both. By far the majority of the customers are one off tourists many from overseas. There are a large numbers of rail staff and/or enthusiasts from all over the UK and overseas. I have seen hunting parties but not many and none in recent years (this may be a reflection of my travel patterns).
Normal travellers can normally be counted on one hand in my experience so I think CS have their pre covid marketing right.

 

[AberdeenBill]

Until I retired two years ago I was a fairly regular user of the Fort William Sleeper but not enough to consider myself a "regular".
In all that time I'd only identified 2 people Id considered to be "regulars". One of these owns the hotel at Bridge of Orchy and the other was the now deceased Lord Braybrooke sometimes accompanied by his wife. I've shared tables with both. By far the majority of the customers are one off tourists many from overseas. There are a large numbers of rail staff and/or enthusiasts from all over the UK and overseas. I have seen hunting parties but not many and none in recent years (this may be a reflection of my travel patterns).
Normal travellers can normally be counted on one hand in my experience so I think CS have their pre covid marketing right.

Is it perhaps the case that there are different classes of traveller depending on the destination? Fort William and Inverness i would suspect are dominated by the tourist market whereas the other routes with Aberdeen and Glasgow in particular being used by a more business / family/ home town visit type of traveller. Weekend breaks and short trips both to Europe and within the UK appear to have become ever more popular over the last few years but i cannot ever recall any of my colleagues / friends in London saying that they had used the sleeper for a visit to Scotland, with the exception of a few working in the rail industry. i get the impression it is just not on the radar for most so there is perhaps a large domestic market that is untapped and CS could market accordingly as a practical way of travel rather than a UK version of the Orient Express. Others (mainly Scottish) who are aware of the service immediately dismiss it as being 'far too expensive'.

 

[CW2]

A gin and orange, a lemon squash and a scotch and water, please?

Brilliant, simply brilliant.

 

[Bald Rick]

A gin and orange, a lemon squash and a scotch and water, please?

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