Caledonian Sleeper

[MrEd]

So I made my first trip on the new trains, London to Glasgow earlier this week.
As I checked in they said they'd be moving me from my middle carriage berth to No.1, which I declined! A member of staff said 'Oh you've been on before then?', so staff clearly know its rough riding. Just told him I'd read about it (here).

Good for you! What amazes me is, if they know berth 1 is rough riding, why they would want to move passengers to it unless their allocated berth had a fault which rendered it unsafe and no other accommodation was available? Did they give a reason for trying to move you? Obviously there can’t have been much wrong with your allocated berth.

I wonder if some of these crews do it deliberately so they don’t have as far to walk with morning teas, or for some other lame reason?

As requested! (Ignore the fact it states Highlander - I’ve successfully just ordered from it…)

Looks good!

 

[Butts]

Good for you! What amazes me is, if they know berth 1 is rough riding, why they would want to move passengers to it unless their allocated berth had a fault which rendered it unsafe and no other accommodation was available? Did they give a reason for trying to move you? Obviously there can’t have been much wrong with your allocated berth.

I wonder if some of these crews do it deliberately so they don’t have as far to walk with morning teas, or for some other lame reason?


Looks good!

All joking aside with the price charged for Club Rooms I can't believe that you have to pay extra for Food & Drink.

Even Avanti & LNER have free Alcohol (in normal times) for 1st Class passengers.

Club brings to mind Club Europe and the associated benefits with Premium Travel which seem to be distinctly lacking here.

 

[MrEd]

All joking aside with the price charged for Club Rooms I can't believe that you have to pay extra for Food & Drink.

Even Avanti & LNER have free Alcohol (in normal times) for 1st Class passengers.

Club brings to mind Club Europe and the associated benefits with Premium Travel which seem to be distinctly lacking here.

I think it’s because CS chose to continue with a ‘restaurant car’ style operation which was based around an a la carte menu on which all items were individually priced, and which (importantly) allowed standard class passengers to dine. In the 2000s GNER (as was) and Anglia on the London-Norwich route did not offer free meals in first class (only drinks and snacks) but provided restaurant cars which were available to both classes, although the meals were definitely not cheap. This is similar to GWR’s pre-pandemic operation with the Pullman. East Coast (as it became) and Virgin went down the route of free meals for first and just a buffet for standard.

The reasoning behind CS’ decision was perhaps was that first class passengers would be happy to pay for a higher quality offering with more choice. In the past they did experiment with meal deals and even £5 refreshment vouchers for first class, but these did not last. Perhaps CS could say that first class passengers get a main course, dessert and drink included in the ticket price, but then anything else on top of that would need to be paid for. Otherwise CS will end up giving away a lot of quite expensive food, which would make the lounge car uneconomical to run.

Another point is that not every first class passenger on the sleeper requires food- many will already have had their evening meal (especially on the Lowlander) and will require only minimal breakfast; the En-suite room will be a major attraction for many.

My two wishes are that CS dropped the silly marketing speak and called a spade a spade (to me it will always be first class berths and the lounge car, never club rooms and the club car, probably because I was so used to the old stock), and that they had perhaps lowered the fares slightly during the pandemic period when many of the facilities are unavailable. That said, the government restrictions are not CS’ fault, and the operation is already massively subsidised. At the end of the day, you are paying for a near 600-mile rail journey to Inverness or Fort William (for which I would doubt you could get much change out of £100 even in standard class on day trains, even using advances) and for the convenience of being able to travel overnight rather than wasting a day of your holiday or your working week travelling. For many people that’s the main selling point of the service, and that can still be fulfilled even in these pandemic times. If CS are now able to fill the Inverness and Fort William trains on Friday nights, even with the ongoing restrictions, then they’re obviously doing something right. As has been said above, there is no need to introduce perks, gimmicks or discounts if they can fill the train.

 

[Butts]

I think it’s because CS chose to continue with a ‘restaurant car’ style operation which was based around an a la carte menu on which all items were individually priced, and which (importantly) allowed standard class passengers to dine. In the 2000s GNER (as was) and Anglia on the London-Norwich route did not offer free meals in first class (only drinks and snacks) but provided restaurant cars which were available to both classes, although the meals were definitely not cheap. This is similar to GWR’s pre-pandemic operation with the Pullman. East Coast (as it became) and Virgin went down the route of free meals for first and just a buffet for standard.

The reasoning behind CS’ decision was perhaps was that first class passengers would be happy to pay for a higher quality offering with more choice. In the past they did experiment with meal deals and even £5 refreshment vouchers for first class, but these did not last. Perhaps CS could say that first class passengers get a main course, dessert and drink included in the ticket price, but then anything else on top of that would need to be paid for. Otherwise CS will end up giving away a lot of quite expensive food, which would make the lounge car uneconomical to run.

Another point is that not every first class passenger on the sleeper requires food- many will already have had their evening meal (especially on the Lowlander) and will require only minimal breakfast; the En-suite room will be a major attraction for many.

My two wishes are that CS dropped the silly marketing speak and called a spade a spade (to me it will always be first class berths and the lounge car, never club rooms and the club car, probably because I was so used to the old stock), and that they had perhaps lowered the fares slightly during the pandemic period when many of the facilities are unavailable. That said, the government restrictions are not CS’ fault, and the operation is already massively subsidised. At the end of the day, you are paying for a near 600-mile rail journey to Inverness or Fort William (for which I would doubt you could get much change out of £100 even in standard class on day trains, even using advances) and for the convenience of being able to travel overnight rather than wasting a day of your holiday or your working week travelling. For many people that’s the main selling point of the service, and that can still be fulfilled even in these pandemic times. If CS are now able to fill the Inverness and Fort William trains on Friday nights, even with the ongoing restrictions, then they’re obviously doing something right. As has been said above, there is no need to introduce perks, gimmicks or discounts if they can fill the train.

But oh for a Cohiba and a Cognac to round the night off.

You are a noble advocate for the Caledonian Sleeper and not adverse to acknowledging some of it faults and foibles.

They ought to reward you with a Couple of Free Journeys - Club Class !!!

 

[williamn]

Good for you! What amazes me is, if they know berth 1 is rough riding, why they would want to move passengers to it unless their allocated berth had a fault which rendered it unsafe and no other accommodation was available? Did they give a reason for trying to move you? Obviously there can’t have been much wrong with your allocated berth.

I wonder if some of these crews do it deliberately so they don’t have as far to walk with morning teas, or for some other lame reason?


Looks good!

I neglected to mention - I was still moved, just to a centre-carriage cabin. Not sure of the reason why given the train was so empty.

 

[MrEd]

I neglected to mention - I was still moved, just to a centre-carriage cabin. Not sure of the reason why given the train was so empty.

Good to know that you got your centre-coach cabin (and there’s never any harm in asking nicely). I suspect that there was a minor defect (perhaps no running water or something) with the allocated room. If the train is not busy, the staff ought to be flexible.

Some of the old-school crew who worked the train in Scotrail days (not too many of those left now, but a few here and there at various depots) will always try to move passengers to as near to the middle of the carriage as they can (where there are spare berths). I don’t know if this was company policy in Scotrail days but a lot of crews did it back then, as the Mk3s were notoriously rough-riding over the bogies in their latter days. Not that the Mk5s over the bogies are any better (in fact they may be worse).

Crews back in Scotrail days had the added issue of passengers sharing berths with strangers and often had to alter the room allocations to ensure that this was minimised wherever possible (even though Scotrail made no secret of the need to share with a stranger, it still caused no end of complaints and many staff did their best to ensure that it didn’t happen). Thankfully this is one less worry for the crew these days (and in these Covid times there is no danger of it returning!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the need to "check in" when travelling on the Sleeper it does surprise me that passengers are reserved specific berths rather than just getting a "counted place" reservation and being allocated one on check-in, like every single hotel ever.

 

[Steve Harris]

Given the need to "check in" when travelling on the Sleeper it does surprise me that passengers are reserved specific berths rather than just getting a "counted place" reservation and being allocated one on check-in, like every single hotel ever.

It probably goes back to (and is a carry over from) BR days, remember back then you had a sleeper supplement + travel ticket. (Does the supplement still exist for the likes of an All Line Rover?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

It probably goes back to (and is a carry over from) BR days, remember back then you had a sleeper supplement + travel ticket. (Does the supplement still exist for the likes of an All Line Rover?)

They do I believe still exist, yes, but they're just issued as chargeable reservations - so I don't entirely see why they couldn't be counted places.

 

[greatkingrat]

Given the need to "check in" when travelling on the Sleeper it does surprise me that passengers are reserved specific berths rather than just getting a "counted place" reservation and being allocated one on check-in, like every single hotel ever.

That might work at the termini, but is less practical for passengers joining at intermediate stations who would have no idea what part of the train they are in

 

[vlad]

I get the impression that if the CS on-train staff could retain it as a staff-only club room then they would. They seem to enjoy congregating there.

They did that regularly on the old stock with little warning and for no obvious reasons....

 

[Essexman]

Given the need to "check in" when travelling on the Sleeper it does surprise me that passengers are reserved specific berths rather than just getting a "counted place" reservation and being allocated one on check-in, like every single hotel ever.

Then people would need to arrive early to get a good berth. Far fairer to allocate when booked.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Given the need to "check in" when travelling on the Sleeper it does surprise me that passengers are reserved specific berths rather than just getting a "counted place" reservation and being allocated one on check-in, like every single hotel ever.

Well, on about 80% of all my hotel booking ever I've been able to request and reserve a specific room number...

 

[Davester50]

Well, on about 80% of all my hotel booking ever I've been able to request and reserve a specific room number...

I've done the same when I was looking for a particular room.

The Hilton Hotels app lets you chose your own room at online check in.
Great for when you want a room with a view, or away from overlooking the bins.

 

[MrEd]

Given the need to "check in" when travelling on the Sleeper it does surprise me that passengers are reserved specific berths rather than just getting a "counted place" reservation and being allocated one on check-in, like every single hotel ever.

It’s not so practical on a train though because there’s no front desk- sleeper passengers will need to find their booked carriage so that they can check in with its host.

For a year between spring 2018 and spring 2019, when CS went through an infuriating phase of experimenting with crazy and impractical ideas just before the Mk5s were introduced, they tried checking passengers in at one single check-in point at the platform end. I will not be alone in saying that this was a horrendous farce. Certainly I and most other users of the train jumped for joy when it ended in the summer of 2019; thankfully they went back to the time-honoured method of checking in with hosts at the carriage doors.

It was during the same period that CS’ management decided to try banning the sharing of tables in the lounge car (on the ground that if sharing berths with strangers was being discontinued then sharing tables might as well be banned too); I’m sure there were other crazy experiments here and there during that strange and unhappy time which was probably when CS management was at its most off-beam. There were some decidedly weird things on the lounge car menu at that time too that folk only ordered in desperation when there was nothing else left- does anyone remember that weird salmon and butternut squash curry? It was nice in its own weird way (typically enjoyed on your own at a table for three or four, when you’ve had to wait till 11pm to order any food because sharing was banned and there was little else left) but those three ingredients didn’t really belong together and it was never a popular dish. One or two of the Fort William crew used to insist that the chef who’d invented it was called ‘Stevie Wonder’... I’ll leave you to work that one out Perhaps some folk enjoyed it (someone on here might have thought it was the best thing ever) but it seemed to be the butt of numerous jokes. (Especially when on one occasion it was served in a soup bowl resting on a dinner plate, with a large serving of rice, some bread and butter and a random dessert spoon on the plate rim).

For all the trouble that the pandemic has caused, the sleeper is a much slicker and better run operation now than it was three years ago.

 

[ashkeba]

There were some decidedly weird things on the lounge car menu at that time too that folk only ordered in desperation when there was nothing else left- does anyone remember that weird salmon and butternut squash curry? It was nice in its own weird way (typically enjoyed on your own at a table for three or four, when you’ve had to wait till 11pm to order any food because sharing was banned and there was little else left) but those three ingredients didn’t really belong together and it was never a popular dish.

There is a popular Nigella TV recipe for similar! https://www.nigella.com/ask/salmon-curry-recipe and it suggested butternut if pumpkin not in season.

Hello, years ago, I saw an episode of Nigella Bites where Nigella made this delicious salmon curry.

 

[AberdeenBill]

For a year between spring 2018 and spring 2019, when CS went through an infuriating phase of experimenting with crazy and impractical ideas just before the Mk5s were introduced, they tried checking passengers in at one single check-in point at the platform end. I will not be alone in saying that this was a horrendous farce. Certainly I and most other users of the train jumped for joy when it ended in the summer of 2019; thankfully they went back to the time-honoured method of checking in with hosts at the carriage doors.

I remember that. A member of staff stood at a kind of lectern at the entrance to platform 1 at Euston whilst a long queue formed behind as people fiddled with their phones to find their ticket or into their bags for print outs to show at the lectern.

On a slightly different subject, prior to about 2018 / 2019 i recall boarding at the West End of Euston (i think it is around platforms 19-20) where the ramp went down from the concourse and the other ramp up to the parcel deck was further down the platform. I only recommenced taking the sleeper around 2015 after a break of about 30 years (it had left from Kings Cross when i used it then). Did it always go from the west end of Euston and when did it change to Platform 1?

 

[JonathanH]

On a slightly different subject, prior to about 2018 / 2019 i recall boarding at the West End of Euston (i think it is around platforms 19-20) where the ramp went down from the concourse and the other ramp up to the parcel deck was further down the platform. I only recommenced taking the sleeper around 2015 after a break of about 30 years (it had left from Kings Cross when i used it then). Did it always go from the west end of Euston and when did it change to Platform 1?

It has only departed and arrived on platforms 1 and 15 for some time as these are the only ones long enough. Euston only had 18 plaforms (and now 16)

 

[MrEd]

I remember that. A member of staff stood at a kind of lectern at the entrance to platform 1 at Euston whilst a long queue formed behind as people fiddled with their phones to find their ticket or into their bags for print outs to show at the lectern.

On a slightly different subject, prior to about 2018 / 2019 i recall boarding at the West End of Euston (i think it is around platforms 19-20) where the ramp went down from the concourse and the other ramp up to the parcel deck was further down the platform. I only recommenced taking the sleeper around 2015 after a break of about 30 years (it had left from Kings Cross when i used it then). Did it always go from the west end of Euston and when did it change to Platform 1?

I have (not so fond) memories of those days. I think it was an idea which was good on paper but which could never have worked in reality.

The northbound Highlander (Monday-Friday) always used platform 15 at Euston until around January 2017, when it was moved to platform 1 each night (it always used platform 1 on Sundays). I believe the weekday northbound Lowlander also used platform 15 until this time; again, it then switched to platform 1 every night (the Highlander has usually departed before the Lowlander stock arrives). In the mornings, the southbound Lowlander always arrives in platform 1 and the Highlander 15. I don’t know what the reasoning behind the change to platform 1 in the evenings is but I suspect it’s to do with pathing. Platform 15 is much more convenient for passengers as it’s simply down a ramp from the concourse, whereas platform 1 requires a strange dog-leg (especially if you need a step-free route with heavy luggage). There are only two platforms which can accommodate a full 16-coach sleeper consist at Euston, platforms 1 and 15.

 

[CW2]

If you have any coach parties, then platform 1 is more accessible. It is also nearer the lounge.

 

[Steve Harris]

I have (not so fond) memories of those days. I think it was an idea which was good on paper but which could never have worked in reality.

The northbound Highlander (Monday-Friday) always used platform 15 at Euston until around January 2017, when it was moved to platform 1 each night (it always used platform 1 on Sundays). I believe the weekday northbound Lowlander also used platform 15 until this time; again, it then switched to platform 1 every night (the Highlander has usually departed before the Lowlander stock arrives). In the mornings, the southbound Lowlander always arrives in platform 1 and the Highlander 15. I don’t know what the reasoning behind the change to platform 1 in the evenings is but I suspect it’s to do with pathing. Platform 15 is much more convenient for passengers as it’s simply down a ramp from the concourse, whereas platform 1 requires a strange dog-leg (especially if you need a step-free route with heavy luggage). There are only two platforms which can accommodate a full 16-coach sleeper consist at Euston, platforms 1 and 15.

I can cèrtainly verify some of that.

I used to do a lot of Rail Roving in the 90's and used both Highlander/Lowlander a couple of times (or more) each year, and I can certainly remember going northbound you alwas left from P15 for both.
Going southbound I can definitely remember arriving in P1 and the Steward trying to kick me off before the "vacate" time. However I can't remember arriving in P15 (not to say it didn't happen, I just can't remember).

 

[AberdeenBill]

It has only departed and arrived on platforms 1 and 15 for some time as these are the only ones long enough. Euston only had 18 plaforms (and now 16)

Thanks. I must have been getting confused with the number of platforms and meant 15 rather than 19/20!

The northbound Highlander (Monday-Friday) always used platform 15 at Euston until around January 2017, when it was moved to platform 1 each night (it always used platform 1 on Sundays). I believe the weekday northbound Lowlander also used platform 15 until this time; again, it then switched to platform 1 every night (the Highlander has usually departed before the Lowlander stock arrives). In the mornings, the southbound Lowlander always arrives in platform 1 and the Highlander 15. I don’t know what the reasoning behind the change to platform 1 in the evenings is but I suspect it’s to do with pathing. Platform 15 is much more convenient for passengers as it’s simply down a ramp from the concourse, whereas platform 1 requires a strange dog-leg (especially if you need a step-free route with heavy luggage). There are only two platforms which can accommodate a full 16-coach sleeper consist at Euston, platforms 1 and 15.

Thanks, that clarifies things for me. It must have been pre Jan '17 that i made those journeys. I agree Platform 15 was easier for access as at Platform 1 you have to either go down a set of about 4 steps with your luggage or take a detour to ensure step free access. However as CW says, Platform 1 is a bit closer to most of the facilities at Euston.

 

[CW2]

Seems to have been fun and games at Edinburgh with the northbound sleeper this morning. The Inverness portion has set off 130 minutes late with only a single 73/9, so it is losing more time in the hills. The Fort Bill also started late, then diverted to run direct to Cowlairs and Westerton instead of going via Bathgate. It regained about 20 minutes in the process, but is still running late. The Aberdeen portion ran on time.

 

[AberdeenBill]

There have been a few comments on here about passengers being asked to vacate their rooms on arrival earlier than the advertised time. At the other end of the journey, in my experience, although the Highlander northbound states that rooms will be available from 20:30, I usually find that although i usually wander from the Doric Arch pub down to the concourse at about 20:50, inevitably it is at least 21:00 before boarding gets under way. This is not an issue for me but with the Lowlander (which i have never used) not departing until 23:50 i would imagine that many people would be want to be settled in bed before then. Are the Lowlander (north) rooms generally available close to the advertised time of 22:30?

 

[trebor79]

There have been a few comments on here about passengers being asked to vacate their rooms on arrival earlier than the advertised time. At the other end of the journey, in my experience, although the Highlander northbound states that rooms will be available from 20:30, I usually find that although i usually wander from the Doric Arch pub down to the concourse at about 20:50, inevitably it is at least 21:00 before boarding gets under way. This is not an issue for me but with the Lowlander (which i have never used) not departing until 23:50 i would imagine that many people would be want to be settled in bed before then. Are the Lowlander (north) rooms generally available close to the advertised time of 22:30?

In my (limited) experience, yes they are.

 

[MrEd]

There have been a few comments on here about passengers being asked to vacate their rooms on arrival earlier than the advertised time. At the other end of the journey, in my experience, although the Highlander northbound states that rooms will be available from 20:30, I usually find that although i usually wander from the Doric Arch pub down to the concourse at about 20:50, inevitably it is at least 21:00 before boarding gets under way. This is not an issue for me but with the Lowlander (which i have never used) not departing until 23:50 i would imagine that many people would be want to be settled in bed before then. Are the Lowlander (north) rooms generally available close to the advertised time of 22:30?

Interestingly I’ve always been quite lucky with the Highlander- with the Scottish crew on Monday/Wednesda/Friday nights at least, boarding has started at 20:30 or within five minutes of the advertised time. The only exceptions I can think of (in my memory) are when the stock has been late arriving from Wembley (the crew still have to prepare the train and test the fire alarms etc before allowing passengers on board). I‘ve only ever used the Lowlander once but I remember that boarding was delayed until after 23.30 on that particular night- again, I think the stock was late arriving. It’s the luck of the draw I suppose.

Seems to have been fun and games at Edinburgh with the northbound sleeper this morning. The Inverness portion has set off 130 minutes late with only a single 73/9, so it is losing more time in the hills. The Fort Bill also started late, then diverted to run direct to Cowlairs and Westerton instead of going via Bathgate. It regained about 20 minutes in the process, but is still running late. The Aberdeen portion ran on time.

RTT suggests that the Inverness portion arrived at 10.45, 125 minutes late against the booked arrival time of 08.40. So 73969 did a decent enough job it seems (unless RTT is inaccurate).

 

[AberdeenBill]

Interestingly I’ve always been quite lucky with the Highlander- with the Scottish crew on Monday/Wednesda/Friday nights at least, boarding has started at 20:30 or within five minutes of the advertised time. The only exceptions I can think of (in my memory) are when the stock has been late arriving from Wembley (the crew still have to prepare the train and test the fire alarms etc before allowing passengers on board). I‘ve only ever used the Lowlander once but I remember that boarding was delayed until after 23.30 on that particular night- again, I think the stock was late arriving. It’s the luck of the draw I suppose.

That maybe explains it. I have nearly always gone on Thursday nights. The one time pre pandemic when i did go on a Friday night sadly there was a fatality just outside Euston so boarding and departure suffered a lengthy delay anyway. I am going on Friday 21 May, so hopefully for once, might get to board earlier.

 

[CW2]

RTT suggests that the Inverness portion arrived at 10.45, 125 minutes late against the booked arrival time of 08.40. So 73969 did a decent enough job it seems (unless RTT is inaccurate).

1S25 dropped to 153 minutes late at Dalwhinnie, then made up time downhill by omitting stops. So the single 73 lost nearly half an hour going up the hills, then regained some of it by a swift gravity-assisted descent.
I wonder if it will have a 66 in multiple tonight out of Inverness, or whether they will get another 73 up and running by then?

 

[158820]

I wonder if it will have a 66 in multiple tonight out of Inverness, or whether they will get another 73 up and running by then?

There is a 66 and a 73 on the way up right now per rtt. 66706 amd 73968

Realtime Trains - 0Z16 1445 Craigentinny T.&R.S.M.D to Inverness

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[MrEd]

1S25 dropped to 153 minutes late at Dalwhinnie, then made up time downhill by omitting stops. So the single 73 lost nearly half an hour going up the hills, then regained some of it by a swift gravity-assisted descent.
I wonder if it will have a 66 in multiple tonight out of Inverness, or whether they will get another 73 up and running by then?

I must say I wouldn’t want a single 73 hauling load 8 over the HML on a regular basis- it‘s definitely at the very limit of a single 73’s capability. Needs must I suppose.

Good that we’re getting a 66 tonight!