Caledonian Sleeper

[HST274]

I get that there's far, far bigger issues at the moment but are there any positive noises on the club car reopening? I've found a fare in October to Fort William that I'm happy with, but would rather not bother if the club car won't be open.

I received this message on twitter from their team:

Hello, the Club Cars on our services remain closed due to COVID-19 restrictions but, with the further easing of restrictions in Scotland in the coming weeks, we hope to resume our full Club Car service in the near future. Please check our website regularly for any updates to our services at this time.

 

[6Z09]

You've stated the absence of any managers overnight to deal with disruption. I know this not to be true. There's systems in place for decisions to be made throughout operational hours. You've made claims about CS management's behaviour that are false. You've implied that CS won't spend any money on resolving problems, which is also false. Basically, you've demonstrated you have no familiarity with CS's working practices, structure, policies and procedures. You only believe what you want to believe about this dispute.

The majority of current problems are directly related to the pandemic and ongoing policy decisions by Transport Scotland and the Scottish Government.

You don't! You've demonstrated that repeatedly. I've worked in it for 25 years, in both front line and management roles, some of which happened to have been with CS.

That might be a good idea, seeing as pretty much everything you've said is wrong...

Every thing wrong? OK.
Congratulations on your impressive 25 years service. The industry were very lucky to benefit from your service.
I will take your advice and refrain from commenting on things I clearly know nothing about.
I will even thank my lucky stars that despite my fundamental failure to understand how the railway works, I have managed to survive more than forty years in the rail industry.
Across several different sectors, throughout the whole of the UK including a spell in Northern Ireland.
I would have responded earlier, however I have spent all day sleeping, after my "Journey of a Nighttime " to Aberdeen.
All went swimmingly, arriving in Edinburgh on time, decanted onto the platform at 0400 , along with my fellow travellers, some with mountains of luggage, children and elderly.
Directed to the Market Street exit, on the opposite side of the station via lifts escalators and stairs. On arrival we were greeted by "luxury coach " or was it a bus?
This had been laid on by Caledonian Sleeper management who had been "sweating blood "to ensure our journey was memorable! Thank you.
As we departed by road for Aberdeen, the train we had vacated on Platform 19,was also ready to continue on its journey, now free of "Guests " it departed, to Aberdeen!
Another successful night in the world of Caledonian Sleeper .

 

[AberdeenBill]

All went swimmingly, arriving in Edinburgh on time, decanted onto the platform at 0400 , along with my fellow travellers, some with mountains of luggage, children and elderly.

That's terrible. At least on my Thursday night journey to Aberdeen they took us as far as Perth on the Inverness section before dumping us at 6am to find our way from there. Fortunately there was a single member of CS staff (a lady not in her youth) who managed the situation brilliantly and provided us with tea / coffee in the lounge, looked after everybody and advised on the next train etc. Having travelled the Waterloo to Poole journey every Sunday and Friday nights for about the last 20 years with South Western Railway and their predecessors South West Trains, both of whom make CS look like a slick operation, I am used to disruption and took it in my stride. However there were passengers with young children and people who were obviously less experienced travellers who seemed confused by the whole situation. Nothing was stated about the impending service disruption on CS website and we received a text about 5 hours before boarding. Imagine if you believed the marketing and booked this trip as a special anniversary or similar. I am traveling back tomorrow and the only communication i have received so far is a text advising me that i must wear a face mask within Scotland. I await the text tomorrow afternoon telling me to make my way to Edinburgh. I really cannot see this shambles continuing to exist in the medium term.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I would like to try the Caledonian Sleeper and I like the idea of sleeping my way to Scotland. I sleep well on the sleepers I have used. But it is too pricey and seems to be a worse journey than the coach. Furthermore it seems too likely that a CS passenger/guest will end up on a coach anyway so why pay more than the coach.

As for food, I know I keep saying it, I have had too many bad experiences of food not being available at the last minute. Nowadays I never use the buffet as it is cheaper, more reliable and more choice to take your own food and drink. It looks like the food that is supposed to be provided on the sleeper is particularly unreliable. I have never experienced the food I expected on a flight being unavailable.

I can only imagine that the sleeper is keeping busy due to demand from people misled by the advertising. If that works then so be it. For me it means not trusting CS. I know Covid has a part to play in this but I do not think CS are entitled to persist in making promises they cannot keep. If I ignore the (arguably) more biased negative views I am still left viewing CS as a bad advert for the UK.

 

[JonathanH]

At least on my Thursday night journey to Aberdeen they took us as far as Perth on the Inverness section before dumping us at 6am to find our way from there.

That is only possible if the Aberdeen passengers can be accommodated on the Inverness portion. If there isn't room on the Inverness portion, then provision from Edinburgh is needed.

 

[Kite159]

That is only possible if the Aberdeen passengers can be accommodated on the Inverness portion. If there isn't room on the Inverness portion, then provision from Edinburgh is needed.

And I guess if Scotrail are willing to accommodate the sleeper passengers on the service to Aberdeen.

A good quality coach will probably be preferable to a 170, especially if the coach runs non-stop to Aberdeen with another bus for any passengers for the other stations along the way

 

[ScotsRail]

It's a perfectly reputable publication, that has done good work in publicising campaigns such as the Closure of Springburn Works, Mcvities factory closure and both the Scotrail and Caledonian Sleeper disputes.
No mainstream press are in the least interested, although hundreds of jobs and people's livelihoods are under threat.

You mean this mainstream press coverage just of McVities which took less than 3 seconds to find -

Fresh bid to save McVitie's biscuit factory from closure - BBC News
Factory plan could save jobs at historic McVitie's biscuit works in Glasgow - Daily Record
Fresh proposals to save McVitie's Tollcross site brought forward by owners - Glasgow Live
McVitie's factory closing: Customers plan to boycott biscuits - The Sunday Post
McVitie’s closure ‘to cost economy £50m’ | Scotland | The Times
Ban re-use of McVitie's factory land demand in bid to save 500 Scots jobs | HeraldScotland
GMB union making 'good progress' in talks with Glasgow McVitie's bosses | Glasgow Times

 

[JonathanH]

And I guess if Scotrail are willing to accommodate the sleeper passengers on the service to Aberdeen.

A good quality coach will probably be preferable to a 170, especially if the coach runs non-stop to Aberdeen with another bus for any passengers for the other stations along the way

Running the coach from Perth would still be preferable to Edinburgh though if passengers can be accommodated on the Inverness portion.

(Although I imagine a 0415 coach from Edinburgh gets to Aberdeen sooner than a 0600 coach from Perth, is an earlier arrival in Aberdeen actually desirable.)

 

[Happilyretired]

And I guess if Scotrail are willing to accommodate the sleeper passengers on the service to Aberdeen.

I have never known ScotRail Control refuse to carry Highlander sleeper passengers/guests/customers if all or part of it is terminated at Waverley. As illustrated the other night at Perth, they will not authorise a hold on the ScotRail service however

 

[Falcon1200]

As illustrated the other night at Perth, they will not authorise a hold on the ScotRail service however

Which, although annoying for the Sleeper passengers, is entirely understandable given that accommodating that small group of passengers will cause delay and inconvenience to a far greater number of passengers, on the service held and those delayed (including other Operator's) by it.

 

[Blindtraveler]

It's another truly genuine "journey of a night-time" for Aberdeen and Inverness passengers tonight, they'll be turfed out of their beds at 4 a.m. at Edinburgh for onward bustytution

 

[John Bishop]

It's another truly genuine "journey of a night-time" for Aberdeen and Inverness passengers tonight, they'll be turfed out of their beds at 4 a.m. at Edinburgh for onward bustytution

That’s unbelievable. I think this is all going to come to a head very soon, and it’s not going to be pretty!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they know this is going to happen or has a high likelihood of such, why not do a planned cancellation of the Aberdeen and rebook passengers onto the Edinburgh for connections? That would be more civilised.

 

[Nova1]

If they know this is going to happen or has a high likelihood of such, why not do a planned cancellation of the Aberdeen and rebook passengers onto the Edinburgh for connections? That would be more civilised.

Probably the same reason they can't inform you in good time that there's going to be no catering tonight on the train you've already committed to boarding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably the same reason they can't inform you in good time that there's going to be no catering tonight on the train you've already committed to boarding.

Well, quite. They are in a difficult position, but from what is on this thread it seems they are not taking good decisions for passengers, certainly not in line with the premium marketing.

 

[HST274]

Can i ask why this happens? Is there a staff change at edinburgh they can't facilitate or...

 

[JonathanH]

If they know this is going to happen or has a high likelihood of such, why not do a planned cancellation of the Aberdeen and rebook passengers onto the Edinburgh for connections? That would be more civilised.

Yes, other than the wait at Euston and whether there is actually capacity on the Edinburgh service. Not all people would want to be put on the Edinburgh in any case as it would lead to a near three hour later arrival in Aberdeen. It might be alright for the Fife stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, other than the wait at Euston and whether there is actually capacity on the Edinburgh service. Not all people would want to be put on the Edinburgh in any case as it would lead to a near three hour later arrival in Aberdeen. It might be alright for the Fife stations.

I'm suggesting more in advance than that - i.e. follow Avanti's lead and cancel the Aberdeen for say the next month or two, with existing passengers contacted and rebooked onto either the Edinburgh or Inverness as they prefer*, and no new Aberdeen bookings taken for now.

* If things are looking a bit full, offer other favourable alternatives such as First Class daytime travel on LNER/Avanti. Before anyone says "but they might not accept them", CS could simply purchase tickets for them at which point they basically have to.

 

[JonathanH]

Can i ask why this happens? Is there a staff change at edinburgh they can't facilitate or...

It would appear to most likely be due to there being no guard available for the onward service. I guess it could also be no attendant with cover possible south of Edinburgh but not north of there.

I'm suggesting more in advance than that - i.e. follow Avanti's lead and cancel the Aberdeen for say the next month or two, with existing passengers contacted and rebooked onto either the Edinburgh or Inverness as they prefer*, and no new Aberdeen bookings taken for now.

The sleeper appears to be quite heavily booked and the berths for Aberdeen passengers are in the relevant to coaches which will be in the formation between London and Edinburgh regardless of whether the onward service is cancelled. From a practical perspective, that is the starting point for where the Aberdeen passengers can be accommodated with them moved to another portion if possible.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Well tonight it's both Aberdeen and Inverness that are terminating short and given the number of people up here in the Burgh just now I'd be prepared to bed but there isn't sufficient capacity on the Edinburgh lowland portion to rebook everyone and even if some people were sent to Glasgow they still have to transfer them between stations which some might view as overly inconvenient although for my money nowhere near as inconvenient as being turfed out of my "luxury hotel on rails" at a time any respectable hotel still considers as the middle of the night. Like another poster above I do think this will come to a head very soon as the patients of the traveling public and I'm quite sure the industry as well LS been slowly sampford down to a a ivory finnis

 

[HST274]

So is the general concensus that the majority of the problems is down to industrial action rather than the 'pingdemic'- may I ask what action they are taking again?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The sleeper appears to be quite heavily booked and the berths for Aberdeen passengers are in the relevant to coaches which will be in the formation between London and Edinburgh regardless of whether the onward service is cancelled. From a practical perspective, that is the starting point for where the Aberdeen passengers can be accommodated with them moved to another portion if possible.

Clearly if there isn't capacity they can't move them, but they could at least give advance warning, as many (most?) people would cancel if told they would or even might get woken up at 4am. Doing this as a surprise isn't acceptable.

 

[STINT47]

Taken from the sleeper website

"The Caledonian Sleeper is the most civilised way to travel between Scotland and London, allowing you to arrive refreshed at your destination of choice following your overnight journey."

I wonder how refreshed passengers will be on arrival at Aberdeem or Inverness after their civilised journey of the night?

On a more serious note I wouldn't book on the sleeper if you were paying me and if I had to travel for work I would insist on a flight or day train.

Given the standard of service, the large subsidy and the number of people who will not book to use it again after these experiences is it not just time that the sleeper was retired?

 

[Nova1]

Given the standard of service, the large subsidy and the number of people who will not book to use it again after these experiences is it not just time that the sleeper was retired?

Of course there will be a bit of a bias on a website dedicated to people who like trains/the railway, but don't you think attempting to improve the service is a much better option than just binning the entire thing?

 

[STINT47]

Of course there will be a bit of a bias on a website dedicated to people who like trains/the railway, but don't you think attempting to improve the service is a much better option than just binning the entire thing?

Resolving the current problems will help but the sleeper will still have the problem of having to promote itself as a luxury experience when it simply is not.

They could set the marketing more in line with the actual experience but then who would pay the high prices? If you then drop the prices subsidy needs to increase.

I like railways but I also like seeing tax payers money spent wisely. I'm sorry to say that for me personally given all of the issues I would rather see the subsidy invested in the NHS, education, social care etc. With heavy covid debts and public services under funded the sleeper would not be my priority for funding.

The unions not working with the railways at this time of crisis also swings my opinion to withdrawing it.

 

[SteveM70]

What happens if you have a bike with you?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course there will be a bit of a bias on a website dedicated to people who like trains/the railway, but don't you think attempting to improve the service is a much better option than just binning the entire thing?

A sensible start would be reducing the service to the level they can operate reliably. They did that during the first lockdown so why not now?

 

[HST274]

A sensible start would be reducing the service to the level they can operate reliably. They did that during the first lockdown so why not now?

Because now with 'freedom' demand is high unlike with the first lock down when they could afford to cancel services due to almost all holed up and minute passenger numbers.

 

[JonathanH]

A sensible start would be reducing the service to the level they can operate reliably. They did that during the first lockdown so why not now?

They appear to be able to operate almost all of their services reliably. The Aberdeen portion is only shown to run empty on Monday and Tuesday morning this week. The reason for not reducing the service now is that they would have to cancel bookings they can actually honour. There would be even more uproar if they cancelled services and refunded passengers on dates when the train could actually run.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They appear to be able to operate almost all of their services reliably. The Aberdeen portion is only shown to run empty on Monday and Tuesday morning this week.

I don't know about you, but I don't consider reliability of 66.6% to be even remotely acceptable, it certainly isn't operating "almost all of their services reliably", it's utterly appalling.

95%+ is the level I would consider to aim at for reliability, 90%+ is acceptable, 85% a bit off, anything below that is unacceptably poor, 66.6% is terrible.

Of course the situation isn't of their doing, but you do need to plan your services so you can deliver them. Avanti are at least trying to do this as are Northern.

The reason for not reducing the service now is that they would have to cancel bookings they can actually honour. There would be even more uproar if they cancelled services and refunded passengers on dates when the train could actually run.

Waking people up at 4am is not honouring a booking. At least they could publicise that there was a risk of this, offer free refunds on all tickets and allow people to choose if they wished to take that risk.