Caledonian Sleeper

[Peter Sarf]

The recent discussions on this thread about moving luggage at Waverley in the middle of the night have got me thinking: Given the relative loadings of Aberdeen vs. Fort William portions these days (and now all year round), has the time now come for the through portion to be swapped so that Fort William is a fully through service whilst Aberdeen passengers/luggage would need to relocate at Waverley?

I do believe by the way that luggage (e.g. bike) portering during the split is a reasonable ask for a "hotel on wheels".

I have stayed at plenty of cheaper hotels where I am expected to let the porter take my luggage to my room even if I do not need that service.

Travelled on Sunday from Euston to Aberdeen, and pleased to say the journey went perfectly. Staff were all friendly and helpful. The only issues were 1) received a text two hours before saying there would be no hot food or breakfast( which annoyed and bemused the on board staff who knew nothing about it) - it also meant reduced takings as people went to M&S to get their own sandwiches etc. Also we were in Club cabin C2 right over the bogies and yes it is both noisy and uncomfortable. Some of the line north of Crewe felt quite poor. We had been moved from C3 so somebody obviously had travelled before and asked for a swap. But great to arrive in comfort and on time and not sweating through airport queues. Recommend to all prospective travellers.

Railway food. Here I go again - I never rely on railway food as it is too unreliable and/or expensive. It is better to buy some sandwiches and snacks on the way to the station and factor in the time to do so. On long trips of yore we have taken a sandwich box with cheese slices and ham in it plus a loaf of sliced bread. Fantastically cheap, fresh and reliable.

 

[najaB]

It is better to buy some sandwiches and snacks on the way to the station and factor in the time to do so.

For a daytime trip I agree completely, but for the sleeper the offer of both a hot dinner and breakfast is part of the appeal.

 

[Peter Sarf]

For a daytime trip I agree completely, but for the sleeper the offer of both a hot dinner and breakfast is part of the appeal.

I agree - It should be an integral part of the price paid.

 

[sirren]

I agree - It should be an integral part of the price paid.

Northwards boarding at Crewe is close to midnight, Preston even later. Should those customers have to pay for an evening meal? In theory the present system will suit most, CS just have to deliver.

 

[Stathern Jc]

It sounds attractive, but if all sleeper passengers were entitled to a meal I wonder how far into the journey the last ones would be when their place in the lounge car became available? Could be a late night for some, but that might not be a problem for all.

 

[Christmas]

It sounds attractive, but if all sleeper passengers were entitled to a meal I wonder how far into the journey the last ones would be when their place in the lounge car became available? Could be a late night for some, but that might not be a problem for all.

The lounge car is a decent size for the number of cabins on the train as many guests prefer to stay in their berths. My opinion is that there should have been an additional seated coach in each rake from Glasgow and Edinburgh, to offer a more reasonably priced overnight trip and to complete with the coaches which are a damn sight better value.

Incidentally, are the Sleeper still actively trying to discourage passengers using them as a day train further north?

 

[JonathanH]

Incidentally, are the Sleeper still actively trying to discourage passengers using them as a day train further north?

Discourage? Day train passengers remain barred.

 

[AlterEgo]

Northwards boarding at Crewe is close to midnight, Preston even later. Should those customers have to pay for an evening meal? In theory the present system will suit most, CS just have to deliver.

My experience is generally that when you have to pay a bill at the end of a meal then the quality and service tend to be better.

 

[Peter Sarf]

My experience is generally that when you have to pay a bill at the end of a meal then the quality and service tend to be better.

Very true of course !.

 

[Christmas]

Discourage? Day train passengers remain barred.

What a disgrace. Transport Scotland are obviously not interested in holding them to their contract obligations.

 

[JonathanH]

What a disgrace. Transport Scotland are obviously not interested in holding them to their contract obligations.

Transport Scotland are likely to be in full agreement with this.

 

[najaB]

Transport Scotland are likely to be in full agreement with this.

Indeed, given that Transport Scotland are largely paying CS's bills.

 

[Christmas]

Well there's definitely something to be said for re-merging the Sleeper with the main ScotRail franchise if efficiencies need to be made. It was senseless splitting them in the first place but if Transport Scotland are paying for both then time to relieve Serco of the obvious burden.

 

[35B]

It sounds attractive, but if all sleeper passengers were entitled to a meal I wonder how far into the journey the last ones would be when their place in the lounge car became available? Could be a late night for some, but that might not be a problem for all.

Having joined the southbound Highland sleeper at Stirling (I wanted the 73s...), the thought of an evening meal at that time of night would not have been attractive.

 

[sirren]

The lounge car is a decent size for the number of cabins on the train as many guests prefer to stay in their berths.

In the past, pre-COVID, I’ve turned back from the lounge car because it’s been too busy. I’d have preferred not to stay in the berth. Possibly I wasn’t the only one.

CS repeatedly get criticised for over-promising and under-delivering. Two nights ago I travelled and there was a problem that could have been difficult. It was sorted with minimum fuss and in the morning the steward who’d dealt with it came back to me to check everything was ok. She thanked me for my understanding. She hadn’t caused the issue and she dealt with it very quickly and well. It was a good journey. The CS website is pretty clear on their intended offer. If I don’t like that offer then I have a choice not to book - there are numerous ways to get from England to Inverness and I’ve tried many of them. CS do need to make good on their product, but in my mind that’s more valuable than satisfying all the things I’d like in an ideal world.

 

[Bald Rick]

Transport Scotland are likely to be in full agreement with this.

Indeed, possibly even instructed it.

 

[paul1609]

The lounge car is a decent size for the number of cabins on the train as many guests prefer to stay in their berths. My opinion is that there should have been an additional seated coach in each rake from Glasgow and Edinburgh, to offer a more reasonably priced overnight trip and to complete with the coaches which are a damn sight better value.

I actually prefer the coaches overnight to the Sleeper seats for Glasgow to/ from London. Two weeks ago my southbound overnight Megabus cost £16.49 including booking fee (booked the day before travel), are Caledonian Sleeper realistically going to want to compete in that market?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I actually prefer the coaches overnight to the Sleeper seats for Glasgow to/ from London. Two weeks ago my southbound overnight Megabus cost £16.49 including booking fee (booked the day before travel), are Caledonian Sleeper realistically going to want to compete in that market?

They do compete in that market - that's what the Sleeper seats are!

I'd not want to do it by coach unless I could ensure a pair of seats. The CS seats are much wider and there's the 1 side.

 

[paul1609]

They do compete in that market - that's what the Sleeper seats are!

I'd not want to do it by coach unless I could ensure a pair of seats. The CS seats are much wider and there's the 1 side.

If you browse the sleeper seats price for the next 2 weeks a single from Glasgow to London is in the region of £88 to £68.
Megabus tonight is £21.99 falling to £14.99 in 3 days time. I don't think Ive ever paid over £25 for the journey on Megabus.
Thats not the same market to me, if I was spending £70 for the journey Id probably be on Easyjet from Gatwick or Stansted avoiding the London terminals Faff.
Id like a bit more legroom but otherwise the seats are fine for me.

 

[Christmas]

I actually prefer the coaches overnight to the Sleeper seats for Glasgow to/ from London. Two weeks ago my southbound overnight Megabus cost £16.49 including booking fee (booked the day before travel), are Caledonian Sleeper realistically going to want to compete in that market?

In my opinion the seated coach fares should match the day train fares structure with relevant discounts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my opinion the seated coach fares should match the day train fares structure with relevant discounts.

You can use a day train ticket in the seated coach if you want*, you just need a (free) seat reservation. The dedicated fares are usually quite a lot cheaper.

* Except London-Edinburgh, but as that's issued as singles why would you?

 

[paul1609]

In my opinion the seated coach fares should match the day train fares structure with relevant discounts.

Presumably the sleeper seats would be first class in such a scenario?

 

[JonathanH]

Presumably the sleeper seats would be first class in such a scenario?

No, standard class tickets are valid - the most expensive day train advances are in line with the sleeper fares.

Obviously you have to go up a few tiers to get to levels consistent with the sleeper fares. Advance fare quotas don't have to start at the lowest level for a given service.

In theory, Caledonian Sleeper seated advances start at £28. They just don't sell any at that price, not least because seated capacity is, I think, still limited to 11 passengers on each train.

 

[Berliner]

No, standard class tickets are valid - the most expensive day train advances are in line with the sleeper fares.

Obviously you have to go up a few tiers to get to levels consistent with the sleeper fares. Advance fare quotas don't have to start at the lowest level for a given service.

In theory, Caledonian Sleeper seated advances start at £28. They just don't sell any at that price, not least because seated capacity is, I think, still limited to 11 passengers on each train.

It is no longer limited to 11 and hasn't been for some time now. However only window seats are able to be occupied. The middle "B" seats are blocked off.

 

[megabusser]

I actually prefer the coaches overnight to the Sleeper seats for Glasgow to/ from London. Two weeks ago my southbound overnight Megabus cost £16.49 including booking fee (booked the day before travel), are Caledonian Sleeper realistically going to want to compete in that market?

i also prefer the coach. I sleep better, and I think it’s because it’s smoother (at least the non-stop to Glasgow option) and darker. Sadly, a berth just isn’t an option price-wise, especially when travelling solo.

I’m not sure it is a totally different market though - I know people who’ll do the seared sleeper if it’s not too expensive, coach otherwise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have also seen Megabus and NatEx fares much higher than you quote, I'm sure I have seen at least £40. This brings them closer together.

The seated Sleeper dedicated fare is effectively capped at half the walk up off peak return (ignoring Edinburgh specifically) as you'd just buy that and get a reservation.

 

[paul1609]

I have also seen Megabus and NatEx fares much higher than you quote, I'm sure I have seen at least £40. This brings them closer together.

The seated Sleeper dedicated fare is effectively capped at half the walk up off peak return (ignoring Edinburgh specifically) as you'd just buy that and get a reservation.

I've seen National Express that high but never Megabus. Even when Edinburgh Festival is on the most I've ever paid to Stirling was £28. I remember sitting in Victoria Coach Station watching the 8 relief coaches for the overnight Nat Exp to Edinburgh.
The maximum sleeper seated fare to Glasgow is £98 that's more than half the off peak return. I think there's quite a significant multi mode market. Going north I tend to book well in advance and fly from Gatwick. To my mind the security faff at the airport is actually less than the Central London Faff with rail. Coming back down its often what's cheapest at a couple of days notice.

 

[najaB]

I've seen National Express that high but never Megabus.

I have definitely seen Megabus prices that high heading down to London. The last time I went down by coach I got National Express because even at just over £30 it was cheaper than Megabus. I know, didn't make sense to me either!

I also once got a bus to Paris (National Express + OuiBus) for less than the Megabus to London.

 

[paul1609]

I also once got a bus to Paris (National Express + OuiBus) for less than the Megabus to London.

Is that surprising? From London Paris is 290 miles, Glasgow 415.

 

[najaB]

Is that surprising? From London Paris is 290 miles, Glasgow 415.

That was Dundee-London-Paris vs Dundee-London.