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Cambridge Area Signalling Renewal

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TheBigD

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How does that fit with the Cambridge South proposal, which includes the addition of a similar loop on the up side?
"The cupboard" is just south of Cambridge station, 1 signal outside.
Whilst I've not paid much attention to the Cambridge South proposals, I'm pretty sure that the proposed new station is further south from there.
 
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Magdalia

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The mainline isn't sparsely signalled there are far older installations like Ely to Kings Lynn as well as many other routes across NR that need modernisation rather than Cambridge
The Cambridge resignalling is about 40 years ago now, I wouldn't be surprised if bits of it are life expired.
"The cupboard" is just south of Cambridge station, 1 signal outside.
Whilst I've not paid much attention to the Cambridge South proposals, I'm pretty sure that the proposed new station is further south from there.
I hope that the people planning the signalling work at Cambridge are paying attention to the Cambridge South proposals. The new station is further south but track capacity between Shepreth Branch Junction and Cambridge is critical to making Cambridge South work operationally. The cupboard is used frequently already, particularly by trains terminating in the south end bays, that option becomes more important when trains are stopping at Cambridge South too.
You mean the same loop that last week meant they could run any down direction services at all for several hours due to a track fault on the down line?

Nice short sighted planning there.
Yes.
 

Class 170101

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It appears that there are also some track alterations alongside this project.

At Cambridge itself, it looks like the point work is removed from the South end of what is locally known as "the cupboard" which will prevent trains from the South being recessed here before entering the station from the South. It will still be available for shunt moves from the station though.
The cupboard looks to be staying as Rules of the Plan has what looks like ARS route codes for it for a change from Panel to Workstation based operation.

What is locally known as "the gas" which is the loop on the down line adjacent to Coldhams Lane depot is also removed.
Same as above.
 

TheBigD

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The cupboard looks to be staying as Rules of the Plan has what looks like ARS route codes for it for a change from Panel to Workstation based operation.


Same as above.

Good to hear though it is different from what was emailed out this week.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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The Cambridge resignalling is about 40 years ago now, I wouldn't be surprised if bits of it are life expired.
Yes but there are far older signalling installations north of Cambridge although the irony of the modern railway is an installation like Cambridge is deemed life expired but a big mechanical box at Shrewsbury nearly 3 times as old is still in use.
 

MadMac

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There’s also the question of parts availability for ongoing maintenance and repairs in an installation of that vintage. The manufacturer may not, for example, be able to source components to repair circuit boards.
 

edwin_m

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Yes but there are far older signalling installations north of Cambridge although the irony of the modern railway is an installation like Cambridge is deemed life expired but a big mechanical box at Shrewsbury nearly 3 times as old is still in use.
Mechanical boxes essentially last for ever if you have some people with the relevant skills to maintain them and hand-manufacture various obscure parts that aren't otherwise available. Relay interlockings from the 1980s tend to suffer from wire degradation which isn't really repairable without pretty much replacing everything.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Mechanical boxes essentially last for ever if you have some people with the relevant skills to maintain them and hand-manufacture various obscure parts that aren't otherwise available. Relay interlockings from the 1980s tend to suffer from wire degradation which isn't really repairable without pretty much replacing everything.
Correct so one could question why NR are obsessed with getting rid of mechanical boxes when the replacement may only last 40 years at best and probably less given the use of computer based solutions is likely to lead to even earlier obsolescence.
 

edwin_m

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Correct so one could question why NR are obsessed with getting rid of mechanical boxes when the replacement may only last 40 years at best and probably less given the use of computer based solutions is likely to lead to even earlier obsolescence.
Labour savings. But only if they can get the capex down - currently the whole-life cost isn't much cheaper than continuing to pay the signallers.

Computer-based systems do lend themselves to selective upgrading of only part of the system if it is life-expired or obsolete, rather than having to replace the whole lot in a traditional re-signalling.
 

Class 170101

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Labour savings. But only if they can get the capex down - currently the whole-life cost isn't much cheaper than continuing to pay the signallers.
Assuming they have the signallers in the first place. Capital expenditure seems to becoming easier to find by the day compared to signalling staff as we have seen on this board in recent weeks with threads about panel and signal box closures and probably likely tro get worse, at least in the short term.
 

Darrenmordon

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Hi does anybody know what’s happening at whitlesford parkway station looking like they are putting new sidings in
 

a good off

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A few days ago I heard an unfounded rumour that the DFT have told Network Rail to include the Ely-March- Peterborough line in with the Cambridge resignalling scheme. Can anyone confirm this?
 

TheBigD

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A few days ago I heard an unfounded rumour that the DFT have told Network Rail to include the Ely-March- Peterborough line in with the Cambridge resignalling scheme. Can anyone confirm this?
News to me. Not heard that, nor had any emails at work about it. The Bury line is included in the scheme though.

The only changes that I am aware of for the EMP is the replacement of the semaphores at Whittlesea, Manea and March South. Planned for week 38 I believe.

Going back a good few years there was at one point a proposal for EMP to be included in the ETCS scheme for the ECML but this never came to anything. Going further back before then to the ROC proposals in 2011 would have seen EMP migrate to Romford in December 2020.
 

HSTEd

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Correct so one could question why NR are obsessed with getting rid of mechanical boxes when the replacement may only last 40 years at best and probably less given the use of computer based solutions is likely to lead to even earlier obsolescence.
Because mechanical boxes consume vast quantities of enormously expensive labour?

And the wiring used in the 1980s projects isn't really used any more so should (hopefully) no longer be a problem.

Signallers are expensive and will only become more so, maintaining the huge numbers of staff required to make mechanical routes workable is simply not affordable long term.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Because mechanical boxes consume vast quantities of enormously expensive labour?
Then why haven't they included all the mechanical boxes up the Kings Lynn branch in this scheme as far more economic to do it under the umbrella of this scheme. Or is it that the business case doesn't stack up.
And the wiring used in the 1980s projects isn't really used any more so should (hopefully) no longer be a problem.
Guess your referring to relay based interlockings and there is nothing wrong with them but granted modifying for changes to track layouts is very expensive but i believe Cambridge station is already SSI given the extensive changes that have taken place to the station and stabling sidings since the PSB was first commissioned. By the way Cambridge box was first to use panel processors to reduce the vast amount of wiring that was needed between the panel and the relay room below and more than likely that computer kit is obsolete. And there in lies the rub with computer kit over its mechanical peer group its becoming obsolescence far quicker and thus needs replacing more frequently than mechanical kit ever did.
Signallers are expensive and will only become more so, maintaining the huge numbers of staff required to make mechanical routes workable is simply not affordable long term.
and with VDU based systems you end up needing more (highly graded) signallers because is screen watching time so its not necessarily as inefficient as you suggest. Biggest problem is the skills to look after the mechanical interlockings are very thin on the ground now.
 

HSTEd

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Then why haven't they included all the mechanical boxes up the Kings Lynn branch in this scheme as far more economic to do it under the umbrella of this scheme. Or is it that the business case doesn't stack up.
Hard to tell without the planning documents - but it is well known that the output of the signalling industry is inadequate to the task of even maintaining a steady state output of resignalling projects. Largely as a result of decisions dating back to the Railtrack era.

This is one of the primary drivers for ETCS deployment because it reduces the amount of hardware to be designed, installed, commissioned and maintained.

EDIT: Is King's Lynn line mechanical? A quick internet search suggests there are only three semaphore signals on the line, two of which are for shunts.
Guess your referring to relay based interlockings and there is nothing wrong with them but granted modifying for changes to track layouts is very expensive
I was referring to the tendency of the rubber insulated wiring used in many of these schemes to become extremely brittle over time - this is a well known technical issue that has hopefully been solved in more modern projects.

By the way Cambridge box was first to use panel processors to reduce the vast amount of wiring that was needed between the panel and the relay room below and more than likely that computer kit is obsolete. And there in lies the rub with computer kit over its mechanical peer group its becoming obsolescence far quicker and thus needs replacing more frequently than mechanical kit ever did.

Well that's largely a result of contracting limitaitons and decisions regarding the designs of the schemes.
Hopefully ETCS and similar standards have reduced the problems caused by this sort of thing in more modern projects - but I wouldn't hold my breath.
 
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zwk500

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Then why haven't they included all the mechanical boxes up the Kings Lynn branch in this scheme as far more economic to do it under the umbrella of this scheme. Or is it that the business case doesn't stack up.
Possibly because then it includes major Level Crossing works, or would require new interlocking at Cambridge that is programmed to be moved to the ROC in not too many years time anyway? (Total guess, btw)
 

HSTEd

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Apparently King's Lynn has been chalked up for a relatively early transitioning to cab signalling - which probably explains the reluctance to spend any money on a more modern signalling system at this time.
 

TheBigD

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To add to what I posted up thread, the replacement of the semaphore signals with colour lights at Whittlesea, Manea, and March South has now been defferred until April next year.
 

dk1

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To add to what I posted up thread, the replacement of the semaphore signals with colour lights at Whittlesea, Manea, and March South has now been defferred until April next year.
Thank you. Will be good to have 90mph back at Croxton when its converted to MCBOD. The annoying 40mph TSR has been on over 15 years now.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Apparently King's Lynn has been chalked up for a relatively early transitioning to cab signalling - which probably explains the reluctance to spend any money on a more modern signalling system at this time.
even more farcical then that NR are spending money sticking up new colour lights again then. New signals now need vast steelwork for structures to comply with modern standards and really NR should hold back on any resignalling scheme that is largely like for like until ECTS is ready to roll out although as usual several railway administrations in Europe are already building it out so not sure why we are dawdling again.
 

MarkyT

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New signals now need vast steelwork for structures to comply with modern standards and really NR should hold back on any resignalling scheme that is largely like for like until ECTS is ready to roll out although as usual several railway administrations in Europe are already building it out so not sure why we are dawdling again.
New signals on simpler infrastructure don't have to be so huge with the lightweight integrated designs available today. Instead of having ladders and raised platforms for maintenance access, they fold down like a street light pole for occasional access. There is no day-to-day maintenance required with LED heads and their self-cleaning lens coatings.

A resignalling doesn't always have to replace signal structures if they're in good enough condition to retain, and are in the right places for the final scheme.

I'm not aware of any mainland European railways reequipping legacy routes with markerboard-only signalling on any widespread scale. There are many places where ETCS has been overlaid on classic signalling with signals remaining, many configured as so-called 'limited supervision' schemes that emulate older national protection and warning systems using modern ETCS balises. Fixed block level 2 with no signals has been standard on newly constructed lines for a while, but that's not what we're talking about here.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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New signals on simpler infrastructure don't have to be so huge with the lightweight integrated designs available today. Instead of having ladders and raised platforms for maintenance access, they fold down like a street light pole for occasional access. There is no day-to-day maintenance required with LED heads and their self-cleaning lens coatings.

A resignalling doesn't always have to replace signal structures if they're in good enough condition to retain, and are in the right places for the final scheme.

I'm not aware of any mainland European railways reequipping legacy routes with markerboard-only signalling on any widespread scale. There are many places where ETCS has been overlaid on classic signalling with signals remaining, many configured as so-called 'limited supervision' schemes that emulate older national protection and warning systems using modern ETCS balises. Fixed block level 2 with no signals has been standard on newly constructed lines for a while, but that's not what we're talking about here.
Well the current resignalling between Balham and Pourparts Jcn has seen huge structures installed to carry two modern lightweight LED heads as they might be light but the staff that have to access them are a lot heavier. These have needed numerous full line closures to install the foundations and then erect the steelwork. Conversely though KX remodelling has largely used the lightweight signal structures so there is inconsistency. Only Denmark has embarked on a system wide ETCS L2 which was driven by the need to modernise signalling in advance of electrification but plenty of other countries have installed it when modernising route section especially when they are recipients of EU funding so a scheme like this should be going straight to L2 rather than spending a heck of lot extra on all the line signals. The fact that they haven't here as well as many other areas suggest the technology isn't as cost effective as its being portrayed despite 100's of millions being spent on retrofitting existing rolling stock with the necessary train borne equipment.
 

MarkyT

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Well the current resignalling between Balham and Pourparts Jcn has seen huge structures installed to carry two modern lightweight LED heads as they might be light but the staff that have to access them are a lot heavier. These have needed numerous full line closures to install the foundations and then erect the steelwork. Conversely though KX remodelling has largely used the lightweight signal structures so there is inconsistency. Only Denmark has embarked on a system wide ETCS L2 which was driven by the need to modernise signalling in advance of electrification but plenty of other countries have installed it when modernising route section especially when they are recipients of EU funding so a scheme like this should be going straight to L2 rather than spending a heck of lot extra on all the line signals. The fact that they haven't here as well as many other areas suggest the technology isn't as cost effective as its being portrayed despite 100's of millions being spent on retrofitting existing rolling stock with the necessary train borne equipment.
I'd forgotten Denmark, but even there, the programme will still take many years to complete.

I think it has been pragmatic to delay here in UK until the tech had became truly mature and reliable and there was widespread support for it in the supply industry. This is undoubtedly the case now with the latest baseline 3 implementations. However, you can only do it once all the trains that are ever likely to need to run in the particular area are actually fitted. An isolated Ely - Kings Lynn scheme makes sense because Great Northern run the regular service, stock for which has to be ETCS fitted for working into Kings Cross, a committed 'signals away' scheme. Big, multitrack structures may be the only way to get the signals where they're required on these major routes into London, especailly the ex-Southern where clearances to squeeze simple straight posts in are often very tight. These routes are where most savings would be possible using marker boards instead of signals, but again it can't happen unless the fleet is fully fitted already and these renewals-driven jobs need to be got on with due to age and condition issues. There are also historic fleets with little remaining life in them that are in some case very difficult to retrofit and definitely uneconomic. Kings Cross - Peterborough was the perfect site for a whole route approach as the passenger fleet is all new and either specified ETCS ready or already equipped. There is a freight fitment programme and no doubt early tranches of equipped locos will appear on trains that traverse this part of the ECML.

Note for some years now it has been standard in contracts to specify that new signalling systems must be designed to be 'ETCS ready'. Processor-based interlockings with digital lineside communications are inherently 'ready' for plugging into RBCs (radio block centres), and varying levels of trackside reconfiguration can then be carried out, ranging from a L2 overlay on existing signals to their removal and replacement by marker boards.
 
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HSTEd

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I'm not aware of any mainland European railways reequipping legacy routes with markerboard-only signalling on any widespread scale. There are many places where ETCS has been overlaid on classic signalling with signals remaining, many configured as so-called 'limited supervision' schemes that emulate older national protection and warning systems using modern ETCS balises. Fixed block level 2 with no signals has been standard on newly constructed lines for a while, but that's not what we're talking about here.

The Czechs are aiming for ETCS covering half the route network by 2030 and total coverage by 2040

Wholesale fleet replacements to obtain ETCS equipment are underway.

It's unclear whether it will be fully universal Level 2, but I've gone digging and as far as I can tell Level 2 will certainly be the solution on all major lines.

Meanwhile we will still not have even finished ROC rollout by 2070 or so.

EDIT:

I do not speak czech but from what I can tell, if you go to page 4/7, everything in Green will be ETCS Level 2. Orange will be ETCS Level 1 pending resignalling.
 
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MarkyT

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The Czechs are aiming for ETCS covering half the route network by 2030 and total coverage by 2040

Wholesale fleet replacements to obtain ETCS equipment are underway.

It's unclear whether it will be fully universal Level 2, but I've gone digging and as far as I can tell Level 2 will certainly be the solution on all major lines.

Meanwhile we will still not have even finished ROC rollout by 2070 or so.

EDIT:

I do not speak czech but from what I can tell, if you go to page 4/7, everything in Green will be ETCS Level 2. Orange will be ETCS Level 1 pending resignalling.
Well if you want early adopters, the Swiss standard gauge network was the first in the world to become fully ETCS equipped in 2017. They did this by adapting their preexisting train protection systems to use active Eurobalises, and then migrated the system to a new standard mode known as Level 1LS (limited supervision), included in the latest baseline and which the Swiss got incorporated into the international standards. In parallel, they equipped their fast new lines with Level 2. The genius of this approach is that it allowed older trains to be modified economically, which could thus operate on the L1LS lines forming the majority of the classic network but not on L2 lines. Modern trains with L2 capability, including those from other countries, can go anywhere however with the LS mode supported in the latest baseline. The eventual aim is to shift to L2 networkwide by about the middle of the century, by which time all the older rolling stock should have gone. Of course Switzerland, like Denmark, is a small country, little bigger than a UK Region.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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I'd forgotten Denmark, but even there, the programme will still take many years to complete.

I think it has been pragmatic to delay here in UK until the tech had became truly mature and reliable and there was widespread support for it in the supply industry. This is undoubtedly the case now with the latest baseline 3 implementations. However, you can only do it once all the trains that are ever likely to need to run in the particular area are actually fitted. An isolated Ely - Kings Lynn scheme makes sense because Great Northern run the regular service, stock for which has to be ETCS fitted for working into Kings Cross, a committed 'signals away' scheme. Big, multitrack structures may be the only way to get the signals where they're required on these major routes into London, especailly the ex-Southern where clearances to squeeze simple straight posts in are often very tight. These routes are where most savings would be possible using marker boards instead of signals, but again it can't happen unless the fleet is fully fitted already and these renewals-driven jobs need to be got on with due to age and condition issues. There are also historic fleets with little remaining life in them that are in some case very difficult to retrofit and definitely uneconomic. Kings Cross - Peterborough was the perfect site for a whole route approach as the passenger fleet is all new and either specified ETCS ready or already equipped. There is a freight fitment programme and no doubt early tranches of equipped locos will appear on trains that traverse this part of the ECML.

Note for some years now it has been standard in contracts to specify that new signalling systems must be designed to be 'ETCS ready'. Processor-based interlockings with digital lineside communications are inherently 'ready' for plugging into RBCs (radio block centres), and varying levels of trackside reconfiguration can then be carried out, ranging from a L2 overlay on existing signals to their removal and replacement by marker boards.
I know there is an issue with relay room wiring degradation and ironically RRIs installed in the late 70's and 80's have proven more vulnerable than earlier installations from the 60's. It would have been more sensible to replace the RRIs with processor based interlockings which allowed migration to ETCS in due course and keep the current lineside kit
 

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I know there is an issue with relay room wiring degradation and ironically RRIs installed in the late 70's and 80's have proven more vulnerable than earlier installations from the 60's. It would have been more sensible to replace the RRIs with processor based interlockings which allowed migration to ETCS in due course and keep the current lineside kit
That's what usually happens when individual relay rooms within a larger scheme have to be renewed early due to wiring degradation. There's a style of installation known as 'interfaced SSI' where all the existing external equipment and cabling is retained and wired up to TFMs (trackside functional modules, the processor-based system's input and output) housed in the relay room instead of distributed in cabinets along the lineside. Some manufacturers' wiring was better than others. GECs Victoria scheme was noted for early degradation at multiple sites, which is why it became a major resignalling priority. Feltham, by contrast, is older but designed and built by Westinghouse with a different type of wire and has not suffered from anything like the same scale of problems. The electronics used in the very old schemes for remote control and train describer subsystems are more likely to become a major headache with a dwindling spares pool and inability sometimes of getting 1960s circuit boards repaired.
 

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Just a gentle reminder that the topic of this thread is Cambridge Area Signalling Renewal.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else they are welcome to start a new thread.

thanks
 

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I assume this belongs in this thread.


A Transport and Works Act Order (TWAO) application has been submitted to the Department for Transport to seek powers to upgrade seven level crossings as part of the £194 million Cambridge re-signalling programme.

Seven level crossings (six in Cambridgeshire and one in Norfolk) are set to be upgraded as part of the wider re-signalling programme. The TWAO application seeks the permission to purchase additional land required at each level crossing site. The additional land will allow the installation of new level crossing equipment and upgrade the crossing to full barrier with either obstacle detection or CCTV technology.

The seven level crossings set to be upgraded are:
  • Dimmocks Cote
  • Waterbeach
  • Milton Fen
  • Meldreth Road
  • Six Mile Bottom
  • Dullingham and;
  • Croxton (Norfolk)
 
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