Camden Town and Northern line separation

[Hadders]

Given both this and the Bank station upgrade that is currently progressing, are we any closer to the signing off of the full separation project?

Camden Town needs rebuilding to allow separation and I doubt this will get signed off given financial constraints.

 

[rebmcr]

Camden Town needs rebuilding to allow separation and I doubt this will get signed off given financial constraints.

Indeed, unless separately funded (for example by a developer, Camden council, and/or a ringfenced central government grant).

 

[Mikey C]

Camden Town needs rebuilding to allow separation and I doubt this will get signed off given financial constraints.

And slightly pointless to separate the lines (allowing an increased service) without having the extra stock to run the extra services...

 

[43096]

And slightly pointless to separate the lines (allowing an increased service) without having the extra stock to run the extra services...

How many extra trains are needed for the Northern line?

 

[Mikey C]

How many extra trains are needed for the Northern line?

The whole point of the Camden Town rebuild is to split the Northern Line into 2 separate routes, which would enable a higher frequency to run through the current bottleneck of Camden Town on the 2 separated routes

But there aren't spare trains to operate this higher frequency

 

[43096]

The whole point of the Camden Town rebuild is to split the Northern Line into 2 separate routes, which would enable a higher frequency to run through the current bottleneck of Camden Town on the 2 separated routes

But there aren't spare trains to operate this higher frequency

Yes, I get that. Perhaps I need to re-phrase the question: how many additional trains are needed to enable the higher frequency on the two (Northern Line) routes?

 

[SynthD]

30-40, depending on how many turnbacks are enabled and used. There's talk of using Jubilee line trains on one of the two.

 

[43096]

30-40, depending on how many turnbacks are enabled and used. There's talk of using Jubilee line trains on one of the two.

So with 63 96 stock trains available, you can understand the logic of buying new for the Jubilee line. Cut the 96 stock back down to 6-cars, transfer 30 to the Northern line and the remaining 33 to the Bakerloo (subject to clearance work being done) to bin off the 72 stock. It keeps the Bakerloo and Jubilee with one fleet type each and just the Northern with two fleets, though both built by the same manufacturer at around the same time. It's not like the Northern has never had a mixed fleet before (59 and 72 stock etc etc).

 

[py_megapixel]

I'd have thought any new order for the Jubilee at this point would be the NTfL Siemens Inspiro units which TfL ordered the first batch of a few years ago... I remember TfL saying something about wanting to standardise to two fleets only, S-stock on the subsurface lines and NTfL stock on the deep-level lines.

 

[Recessio]

I'd have thought any new order for the Jubilee at this point would be the NTfL Siemens Inspiro units which TfL ordered the first batch of a few years ago... I remember TfL saying something about wanting to standardise to two fleets only, S-stock on the subsurface lines and NTfL stock on the deep-level lines.

NTfL was only planned for Bakerloo, Central, Picadilly and W&C, never the Jubilee or Northern. Presumably because their stock isn't life expired yet. (I'm not sure if the 92 stock is life expired, but it sure is terrible and scheduled to go)

Re the Northern line though, it does raise the interesting question of what will operate on it (and the Jubilee) if extra stock is needed after splitting - they cant keep doing one-off orders for new 95 and 96 stock, surely?

 

[py_megapixel]

NTfL was only planned for Bakerloo, Central, Picadilly and W&C, never the Jubilee or Northern. Presumably because their stock isn't life expired yet. (I'm not sure if the 92 stock is life expired, but it sure is terrible and scheduled to go)

Yes, but I'm fairly sure TfL said they ultimately wanted it on all deep tube lines, just like the S stock is on all sub surface lines.

What I'm saying is that if the Jubilee/Northern stock was to be replaced now, it would be nonsensical to replace it with anything other than NTfL.

 

[Recessio]

Yes, but I'm fairly sure TfL said they ultimately wanted it on all deep tube lines, just like the S stock is on all sub surface lines.

What I'm saying is that if the Jubilee/Northern stock was to be replaced now, it would be nonsensical to replace it with anything other than NTfL.

Oh certainly yes, agreed, it would be ridiculous to diverge the stocks again.

If memory serves, not all the stock replaced by S stock was expired - I think the D had been retractioned or rebogied or something? (not sure.) So wouldn't surprise me if TfL start scrapping 95/96 a bit early to replace with NTfL. Or as you say, just do a later order and have consistent NTfL just of different ages.

 

[Mojo]

Oh certainly yes, agreed, it would be ridiculous to diverge the stocks again.

If memory serves, not all the stock replaced by S stock was expired - I think the D had been retractioned or rebogied or something? (not sure.) So wouldn't surprise me if TfL start scrapping 95/96 a bit early to replace with NTfL. Or as you say, just do a later order and have consistent NTfL just of different ages.

There was a sensible reason for the D Stocks to be replaced - notably the upgrade of the entire subsurface network with new a signalling system which would have required new trains.

The same argument cannot be made for the Jubilee and Northern lines which are already working off a modern signalling system.

 

[Mikey C]

Replacing the Jubilee Line 96s with NTfL would mean having to completely replace all the platform doors as well

While TfL may like the idea of having a consistent fleet, by the time the 95s and 96s are due to be replaced, technology will surely have moved on. Will they really want to be buying a 20 year old design?

After all, while the 38 stock influenced a generation of tube trains, 20 years later thoughts were being given for the next leap forward (60 stock). Then the 73s moved things on again, the 86s trialled the next generation etc

 

[Domh245]

While TfL may like the idea of having a consistent fleet, by the time the 95s and 96s are due to be replaced, technology will surely have moved on. Will they really want to be buying a 20 year old design?

Depends on how much technology has moved on, but also how modular things are. It may be the case that technology hasn't moved on too far in terms of usefully moving passengers in the next 20 years and so ordering yet more of the same doesn't cause you to loose out, or that any improvements made 20 years from now and fitted to NTfL2 can also be bolted on to the first tranche of units bringing the benefits to more of the fleet

 

[LUYMun]

What is the proposed opening date for the Northern Line extension?
Hearing Autumn 2021, I think it could open in September or October...?

 

[Dstock7080]

What is the proposed opening date for the Northern Line extension?
Hearing Autumn 2021, I think it could open in September or October...?

WTT58 tentatively pencilled in for 12 September.