Northern_guard
Member
How dare they have time off work? Don't they know there are crew shortages out there? They should be at work every single hour until there isn't a cancelled train due to staff shortages!
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Can 1st Class be made Standard by train staff when there is overcrowding?
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How dare they have time off work? Don't they know there are crew shortages out there? They should be at work every single hour until there isn't a cancelled train due to staff shortages!
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R
RailUK Forums
So what would happen if someone sat in First Class when it was declassified if that is then revoked. Not great if people are then expected to move, possibly with luggage, and find a Standard seat when they initially sat there in absolutely good faith.
Notably in the rest of the country this does not seem to be a problem. In our own office of over 100 UK personnel there are zero staff shielding. The same seems true of all the other businesses we are in contact with. At our child's school there are no staff shielding. It's apparent from the peak hour road traffic, now exceeding pre-Covid levels, that there are normal numbers of travellers to work. So not "like everywhere".
mister-sparky
Member
Southeastern declassify first class so often it’s really not worth having a first class ticket with them!
RailWonderer
Established Member
When did you take it/what time was the dep? I took the 09:37 Paignton off Paddingdon early August and it was a 5 car and the front car was not busy at all, only the rear two were.
185143
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It was the 10:36, which also left around 25 late.
jw
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No one currently in First Class is expected to vacate - it is only empty seats that are being offered to those standing in Standard.
I believe that those who have purchased First Class tickets can reclaim the cost difference between Standard and First prices in such an event.
The question related to standard-class passengers who had taken a seat in a declassified section of the train - in the event that that section is later reclassified as first, are they expected to return to standard seats?
I expect that the policy answer is yes, they should move, but that staff on the train may or may not turn a blind eye depending on the exact situation.
jw
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Sorry, my misunderstanding of the original post.
That is exactly what l meant.
Grecian 1998
Member
One thing I have noticed recently is that many people will currently choose to stand rather than sit next to a stranger due to the possibility of contracting some disease or other, given that many of the general public seem to believe you're far more likely to catch it from strangers than people you know. This seems particularly common on Bristol - Exeter services operated by XC HSTs for some reason. I've also noticed it can and does happen on 802 operated services leaving Exeter for Paddington - it's clear through the windows when they pull out that there are some empty seats but there are still standees at the end of each carriage.
If there were numerous free seats which were ignored by standees for fear of having to sit next to a stranger, that wouldn't be an argument for declassifying FC. Obviously there's no way of knowing if this was the case on the service in question, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were some free seats.
As an aside, it does seem to be common for 2 X 5 802 or Voyager operated services heading north out of Exeter to be considerably busier in the rear portion than the front. This is likely because the rear portion may have travelled through Cornwall, and because the rear portion is closer to the platform entrances at Plymouth and Exeter St Davids.
As others have said it's also very rare from my observations for weekend Paddington - Penzance trains for First Class to be largely empty.
If there were numerous free seats which were ignored by standees for fear of having to sit next to a stranger, that wouldn't be an argument for declassifying FC. Obviously there's no way of knowing if this was the case on the service in question, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were some free seats.
As an aside, it does seem to be common for 2 X 5 802 or Voyager operated services heading north out of Exeter to be considerably busier in the rear portion than the front. This is likely because the rear portion may have travelled through Cornwall, and because the rear portion is closer to the platform entrances at Plymouth and Exeter St Davids.
As others have said it's also very rare from my observations for weekend Paddington - Penzance trains for First Class to be largely empty.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
(Seeing as this was posted in response to a post of mine I am pleased to respond.)
The Train Manager acted with great charm and efficiency at Exeter, explaining to the First Class ticket holders that she would de-classify at least as far as Taunton because of the short form and large crowd on the platform.
It was fairly evident from the demographic of the crowd that they were mainly families and shoppers, largely travelling to Tiverton Parkway or Taunton rather than longer-distance passengers.
A large number did alight by Taunton and there was adequate capacity in both classes thereafter. I think that only one couple of Standard ticket holders were left in First and the Train Manager helped them move into a pair of vacant seats in the other half of the composite coach. The Standard trolley and First Class at-seat service then commenced.
It really wasn't a drama or a big deal. This sort of thing is done by experienced on-board staff every day. They take it in their stride.
Used to be a hugely regular thing to happen on Transpenine Leeds - Manchester peak time services several years ago as a 185 vs waiting passengers on P16 at Leeds was never really a winning combination!
Fast forward to newer stock, extra services, Covid and it isn't really an issue these days although I believe they actually stopped doing it full stop around 2015 (not that you would get that many extra passengers crammed in the first class section of a 185 in the first place!)
Fast forward to newer stock, extra services, Covid and it isn't really an issue these days although I believe they actually stopped doing it full stop around 2015 (not that you would get that many extra passengers crammed in the first class section of a 185 in the first place!)
Simply put, yes they can, although the actually logistics no doubt vary from TOC to TOC. I have done it a few times myself previously. You obviously should advise someone in Control if you are going to do so, as 1st class passengers are then entitled to compensation.
As for the original discussion about the cancellation, I find it likely there was a probably a driver unavailable (and GWR still struggling slightly on weekends) but that could have been for any leg of the journey as there are normally 3-4 drivers over the course of a Penzance train journey,
As for the original discussion about the cancellation, I find it likely there was a probably a driver unavailable (and GWR still struggling slightly on weekends) but that could have been for any leg of the journey as there are normally 3-4 drivers over the course of a Penzance train journey,
paulwestwood
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And you had a 5 Car set instead of the original 9, because the 9 Car set became the 11:04 Pad to Penzance which was also heavily reserved (10 car reservations) all the way through to Penzance. So we followed you and had at least 620 in standard and 70 in first on departure from Reading.
Yes, passengers should not be left standing when there are empty first class carriages, particularly at weekends when traditional business patronage is low.
It would be interesting to see what the risks are to passengers standing and crushed together in the event of a derailment or other mishap sufficiently serious to cause injuries or fatalities, compared to the risk of injury or fatality had those same passengers been seated. Of course trains are not planes: no one is belted in and people can walk about more or less as they please. But I would have thought the train operators would be keen to minimise their liabilities in the event of an accident and it would be interesting to see what the industry's insurers consider to be the least risky mode of operation.
Maybe on trains with "excessive" first class eg 11 carriage pendolinos, the carriage nearest standard should be unreservable and made available to anyone once train occupancy exceeds a certain safety margin?
You rarely hear tales of first or business class flyers complaining about upgraded economy passengers being sat near them....
It would be interesting to see what the risks are to passengers standing and crushed together in the event of a derailment or other mishap sufficiently serious to cause injuries or fatalities, compared to the risk of injury or fatality had those same passengers been seated. Of course trains are not planes: no one is belted in and people can walk about more or less as they please. But I would have thought the train operators would be keen to minimise their liabilities in the event of an accident and it would be interesting to see what the industry's insurers consider to be the least risky mode of operation.
Maybe on trains with "excessive" first class eg 11 carriage pendolinos, the carriage nearest standard should be unreservable and made available to anyone once train occupancy exceeds a certain safety margin?
You rarely hear tales of first or business class flyers complaining about upgraded economy passengers being sat near them....
I travel from Doncaster to Halifax on Grand Central most weekends, always in standard class. I haven't as yet been on a train that could be said to be full and standing, but they have now gotten to the point where most seats are taken in standard, particularly when the service calls at Donny on its southbound run. I've noticed that first class tends not to be fully occupied some of the time. If the train was totally rammed out and first was empty, then the train manaager should absolutely declassify the 1st carriage, far better than the alternative.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
I don't understand what relevance "business patronage" has here? All passengers in first class have paid for the right to be there, and you'll probably find the leisure traveller is far more fickle about whether they spend the money next time compared to someone expensing it.
Perhaps the Train Manager is the best one to call that decision - quite common for one carriage to be declassified. Of course, no 390s now carry four first class carriages, they have been reduced down to one or two cars of First and one or two Standard Premium.
Go on Flyertalk and read what some pathetic middle-aged men say there! Search "DYKWIA".
I absolutely agree with your comment on the right of passengers who've paid first class fares to be sat there. My reference to business patronage refers to our pre covid world where there were lots of us on expenses travelling. However how much one has paid for a ticket doesn't necessarily reflect the class of travel as I have often found advance first fares to be significantly cheaper than walk on standard fares, so the standing standard class passenger may have paid more for their spot in the vestibule than the reserved seated first class passenger who happened to buy their ticket the day before.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
How much they've paid is really neither here nor there, though. You either have a full and standing train which is uncomfortable, or you don't. Those are the only real factors when it comes to declassifying all or part of First Class.
Ashley Hill
Established Member
On an overcrowded service it's not unusual for standard ticket holders to just plonk themselves in first. When challenged they both refuse to pay the extra or move claiming the old chestnut that they've paid for a seat and there's none in standard. It should be noted that when a 5 car IET runs vice a 9/10 the reservation system will not load causing further problems. As I mentioned up-thread I will de-classify one 1st if the situation warrants it. Before advertising the fact any 1st passengers in that coach are advised and invited to move or advised to claim. Next,any elderly,infirm or pregnant passengers are given priority in those seats and any left are then opened to whoever. Advertise it too early and the coach just fills up with people looking for the free upgrade.
The service is rubbish, on that we are agreed. It's completely unacceptable. But I just don't understand your continued attempt to suggest that the train manager could have 'solved' it. If first class is full, then declassifying won't achieve anything.
That train was full for the reasons you mention, holidaymakers returning , previous cancellations etc. Thats GWR's fault, why try to pin all the blame on 1 individual? Its ridiculous
strawbrick
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The rules are actually very clear!
If the train manager / guard / whatever sees that, for whatever reason, that Standard Class has Passengers in Excess, they can contact Control and obtain consent to de-classifying 1st Class.
They then make the following annoincement "Ladies and Gentlemen, in view of the current over-crowding on this service, 1st Class accomodation is now de-classified and available for passengers with Standard tickets. Holders of 1st Class tickets are advised to complete a refund appliaction for the 1st Class uplift."
If Control do not consent then they can still de-classify but they should not refer to applying for a refund as this will not be given because there is no record back in the office that 1st Class has been de-classified.
Sadly, a number of train managers / guards do not do this even though they will admit that they know they can.
Don't ask how I know this!
If the train manager / guard / whatever sees that, for whatever reason, that Standard Class has Passengers in Excess, they can contact Control and obtain consent to de-classifying 1st Class.
They then make the following annoincement "Ladies and Gentlemen, in view of the current over-crowding on this service, 1st Class accomodation is now de-classified and available for passengers with Standard tickets. Holders of 1st Class tickets are advised to complete a refund appliaction for the 1st Class uplift."
If Control do not consent then they can still de-classify but they should not refer to applying for a refund as this will not be given because there is no record back in the office that 1st Class has been de-classified.
Sadly, a number of train managers / guards do not do this even though they will admit that they know they can.
Don't ask how I know this!
Should you not know it?
strawbrick
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But I do!
"Don't ask how I know this!" is a rhetorical question.
I could have written "Been there, seen it, done it, got the tee-shirt."
"Don't ask how I know this!" is a rhetorical question.
I could have written "Been there, seen it, done it, got the tee-shirt."
RHolmes
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At my TOC you don’t even need to contact control for permission (although it’s advisable Atleast afterwards for passengers claiming declassification difference of their tickets)
‘You’re the train manager, you manage the train’
DorkingMain
Member
Likewise, I would inform control it's been done but I wouldn't ask for their consent.
Justin Smith
Member
I don't go First class much any more as it's too expensive, but I can remember when I was on an ECML service in First and the guard started bringing through people from second class. One of the reasons I sometimes go First and pay the extra is because it's less crowded and this is one of those situations where it always looks different from the other side. I wouldn't have minded if they'd let second class ticket holders use the unoccupied bays but, I seem to remember, they let them use all unoccupied seats, including the other three round me ! As an aside, if I'd have known that was going to happen I'd have stayed in my originally booked seat at Donc, I actually booked one of the single seats but moved to a table for four when I realised the train in First was almost empty ! ! I recall I did feel a bit hard done to as I'd paid more for, er, not more. In fact it was less because had I gone second class I'd have not only paid less but I'd have chosen a twin airline seat by the window and not been so affected by just one person next to me. One doesn't have to play footsie with the person opposite nor listen to the family's intimate conversations around you.....
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Pre Covid there was a point where I was going from Littlehampton to Victoria regularly with Southern. It was one of the first off peak trains of the day, and by Worthing, the entire 4 coaches were full and standing.
We were all crammed in like sardines until Haywards Heath, by which time an additional 4 coaches attached, which were also full and standing. It was only after Haywards Heath did the OBS de-classify the first class to through to London. Not that it made any difference because A) first class sections on the electro stars are small, and B) There isn't really first class on Southern, except a few stickers and a headrest to tell you that you are.
GTR have since upped the 2 per hour LIT-VIC services to at least 8 carriages, which probably won't do much anyway to reduce overcrowding when train travel reaches pre-covid levels.
We were all crammed in like sardines until Haywards Heath, by which time an additional 4 coaches attached, which were also full and standing. It was only after Haywards Heath did the OBS de-classify the first class to through to London. Not that it made any difference because A) first class sections on the electro stars are small, and B) There isn't really first class on Southern, except a few stickers and a headrest to tell you that you are.
GTR have since upped the 2 per hour LIT-VIC services to at least 8 carriages, which probably won't do much anyway to reduce overcrowding when train travel reaches pre-covid levels.
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