Can a 14 year old British student be a fluent German speaker?

[61653 HTAFC]

I wonder how fast native English speakers sound to those learning the language.

Probably depends on where in England you are... We in Yorkshire speak quite slowly, particularly compared to the Geordies- who are probably unintelligible to ESL speakers even at a normal speed!

 

[bspahh]

I wonder how fast native English speakers sound to those learning the language.

Unintelligible. If you want to be understood by non-native English speakers, it helps to talk a little slower, and avoid idioms, word play and jokes that rely on a knowledge of UK TV shows from the 1970s. Often people have learnt American rather than British English. A mid-atlantic accent might be easier to understand.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Probably depends on where in England you are... We in Yorkshire speak quite slowly, particularly compared to the Geordies- who are probably unintelligible to ESL speakers even at a normal speed!

You laugh - but it's true. My daughter was a native English speaker, but not exposed to regional English accents. In about 2005, we were in Gateshead visiting, and she went into Newcastle on the bus, only to return to say people were trying to be very helpful when she asked for information, but she couldn't understand them.
I had similar experiences at the Fife pits (when they had them) in 1970, and even at the pits near Whitehaven the same year.

I wonder how fast native English speakers sound to those learning the language.

Usually very fast. I have lost count of the times I've been at some sort of international conference and a native-speaker of English has said: I know many of you are not native speakers, so I'll speak clearly and slowly. You can bet within three sentences he or she's forgotten all about that, and is rabbiting on like there's no tomorrow. (Of course, this is also true of many other nationalities.)

Many times, I've noticed politicians are the worst when it comes to an inabililty to put themselves in the position of the listeners. And the worst (by far) I've ever experienced for this was David Cameron, who spoke so quickly - and whose sentences were so dense with ideas and concepts - that even as a native speaker i could not take in what he was saying. That is to say, the first part of his sentence was so meaningful that thinking about it meant you couldn't take in the second part. He must be a nightmare for the interpreters.

 

[Gloster]

Many years ago, when I only had basic French, I stayed at a pension in Nancy and had difficult arranging things with the elderly owner, who spoke no English. I did understand that her son would soon be back and he spoke English, but I got no further even after he arrived as I could not understand what he said and we had to revert to French. One of the few things I did learn was that he had learnt his English when working on a building site in Falkirk.

 

[westv]

I bought the Linguaphone course back in the early 1980s.

If it's still the same format, the 30 chapter set is a good basis, but I don't know what the price is these days - it was definitely expensive back in my time - I think it was £120 or so ..... It's a nice basis, but don't believe the marketing spiel - you won't be speaking fluently if you complete the course, and that alone. That is nonsense. There is much more to do than that.

They don't claim fluency these days. For my course :-

• Achieve Level B2 Spanish “Independent User” – CEFR (Common European Framework of Reference for Languages: Learning, Teaching, Assessment)

 

[Magdalia]

If you want to be understood by non-native English speakers, it helps to avoid idioms, word play and jokes that rely on a knowledge of UK TV shows from the 1970s.

A long time ago my work took me to various international meetings, many of which did not have simultaneous translation and were conducted in English, even though it was a second language for most of the participants.

I used to try to speak as literally as possible, avoiding anything that would not make sense when translated literally into another language. Cultural references were verboten, and English business language is full of phrases that need to be used with care.

Now I try to remember to do this with my neighbours who speak English as a second language.

 

[70014IronDuke]

They don't claim fluency these days. For my course :-

• Achieve Level B2 Spanish “Independent User” – CEFR (Common European Framework of Reference for Languages: Learning, Teaching, Assessment)

Well, I can't swear to exactly what the Linguaphone marketing spiel was back 40 years ago, but typically the various language course producers would say something like: "Learn to speak the foreign language of your choice in 20 minutes a day!" and/or "Relax and listen" or "Listen to cassettes whild driving and learn the language in your spare time" - stuff like that. It's nonsense - you have to really listen, not just have your mind on the road, or what's for dinner. without concentrating.

As for level B2, again, if the course content is the same as the 30 lessons back in 1982, I can certainly say I don't believe it. I worked through each and every exercise in those 30 lessons (and while living in Vienna). As I wrote earlier, these give you (if absorbed into your active knowledge of the language) a very good grounding in the grammar, at least in the German course - but there was no way that with that alone you could get to a B2 level in my opinion. The vocabulary was far too limited, for a start. And of course, teaching yourself, you can be sure your listening skills and speaking/pronunciation is anything like good enough.

 

[jfollows]

German was for me the easiest language I learnt. At 14 I wasn’t fluent but could hold a conversation and have enough understanding to get by on trips to Germany. I got a B at GCSE

I find this interesting; I totally believe you by the way, but for me French was much easier. I think it's the word order, and I do like the fact that German is easy to pronounce once you work out the rules. I got an A in O-level French which was something I found easy; on the other hand I got an A in O-level German for which I had to work quite hard - I decided I "wanted" an A so I motivated myself to get it.
PS My other language O-level was a B in Latin, which was mandatory at my school in 1977 and which I cared little about, and a C in "English Language" which annoyed me enough to suggest re-taking it until wiser heads prevailed and said "you passed, live with it".

 

[Sm5]

i went for French, German and Spanish.
i was conversational in French by 15, studied it for 5 years, but picked up Spanish in around 6 weeks, it was dead easy.

My IT coding epitaph was c1998 debugging Spanish language vbcode in Mexico city for Pegaso (a telcom) and then training the class afterwards to use the software I wrote. They were a great team, as soon as they learnt I wasnt American they rolled out the red carpet.. nights out to Aztec stadium, Zona Rosa etc… learnt to cook Mexican food and visited several locations in the country and nearly killed myself on a freeway, and again on a prop plane.

I couldnt stop laughing at Canadian french, its so bad… to me is basically French spoken with an American accent with no attempt at pronunciation.

it all takes me back to being 12, and my attempts at saying “je voo draise” annoying the teacher so much she came round the back of me put one hand on each jaw and forced my mouth shapes to make me say it correctly, rather than opening my mouth and letting the words fall out, much to the entertainment of the rest of the class…

Since learned basics of 7 european languages but at work, I pretend not to understand any european languages, and in meetings its great to listen to whats being said when they think you don't understand… its come in handy at many evening socials with customers and colleagues…

I once had an American customer, in Europe who mistook a girl who joined us in a bar for one of our employees, he was chatting to her for a while, including discussing day rates, presumably she was just pretending to understand the value of software, but she was actually a lady of the night. That tested my diplomatic skills at explaining why she wasn't needed for dinner, without embarrassing him and for her to leave, gracefully… I got the deal, (our professional services day rates were lower than hers) and later I explained what was going on in that bar.

 

[bspahh]

I find this interesting; I totally believe you by the way, but for me French was much easier. I think it's the word order, and I do like the fact that German is easy to pronounce once you work out the rules.

My top tip for practical German, for when you want something in a shop is to use "Ich hätte gern x, y, z" instead of "Ich mochte x, y, z kaufen". It translates nicely to "I would like", and means that you can focus on the vocabulary for the stuff that you want, without then having to add on the verb at the end.

The other key thing is to practice the mumbled grunts for please, thanks, morning, evening, hello and goodbye. You don't need to enunciate these, just get the timing and tone of voice right as well as any of the hard consonants (like tak in Danish/Swedish). I can get by in Danish, Swedish, Italian and Spanish, with these, the numbers, and the bare minimum of other words (breakfast, lunch and dinner, coffee, beer, toilet). Obviously, political discussion is hard with this level of ignorance, but that can be in English.

 

[Ediswan]

Since learned basics of 7 european languages but at work, I pretend not to understand any european languages, and in meetings its great to listen to whats being said when they think you don't understand

Years ago, in then Yugoslavia, a coach tour to Postojna caves, with a mixed crowd of English and German speakers. WWII is part of the history. I knew enough German to notice that the German commentary was less detailed. I rather suspect the German speakers present were at least as competent with English.

 

[Bald Rick]

I have a British friend living in Germany who has a Czech wife; his teenage kids are fluent in all three, and Czech is supposed to be rather hard!

 

[westv]

I have a British friend living in Germany who has a Czech wife; his teenage kids are fluent in all three, and Czech is supposed to be rather hard!

No language is really difficult. Children learn them all the time.

 

[Sm5]

I have a British friend living in Germany who has a Czech wife; his teenage kids are fluent in all three, and Czech is supposed to be rather hard!

I actually learn Polish by reading Czech… the languages are similar, but the phonics to alphabet in Czech is much easier to read than Polish words written down, at least for me. They cant be that far apart, I remeber a Czech footplate crew at Wolsztyn discussing with Polish drivers.. the greeting “Dobry Den” of Czech and “Dzien Dobry” of Polish aren't that different

 

[oldman]

I actually learn Polish by reading Czech… the languages are similar, but the phonics to alphabet in Czech is much easier to read than Polish words written down, at least for me. They cant be that far apart, I remeber a Czech footplate crew at Wolsztyn discussing with Polish drivers.. the greeting “Dobry Den” of Czech and “Dzien Dobry” of Polish aren't that different

If you know the languages, I recommend a series of Youtube videos 'Polish vs. Czech | Slavic Languages Comparison' (more entertaining than it sounds) where a Pole and a Czech compare their languages. In 'Guess who is that' (with PL/CZ/English subtitles) the Czech has to identify celebrities from Polish descriptions. It's interesting to see what they don't understand.

​

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

The Du/Sie dichotomy could be a good test for fluency.

Use of Du/Sie has changed since the textbook was written, or since the teacher spent a few weeks in Heidelberg in 1978.

At evening classes I had a teacher from Bremen but even she could have been out of touch after living in the UK for many years.

 

[westv]

I've done around 80% of the Linguaphone Spanish course now and, based on a couple of online tests I found, I would say I was at level A2.

 

[johnnychips]

I think you have to go to places to be really good. My friend lived in Germany for a year and he said that ‘Goodbye’ was usually ‘Ciao’. Whether that was a fad at the time, I don’t know. When I visited Naples, the way to get off the ridiculously crowded buses was ‘Permesso!’ (I may have spelt this wrongly).

I got a job in a college with deaf students, and at age 60+, I find learning British Sign Language really hard. I find it very much like Spanish, where you can say ?Donde esta el bar? easily but can’t understand any of the reply. Yet there are 16-year-old non-deaf students who seem to pick it up effortlessly, without any lessons.

Off-topic a bit, it is amazing how many people think there is just one worldwide sign language. Even in the UK there are regional ‘dialects’.

 

[yorkie]

I know kids who are aged 12-13 who moved to the UK within the last few years, not previously knowing any English, but are now fluent in English.

For example a boy aged 13 who told me he knew no English at all when he moved from Romania just 4 years ago. However his English is so good now that anyone talking to him would think English is his first language.

It's harder for those from Ukraine because the alphabet is different, but I know some who are learning English at a rapid rate. They get time out of normal lessons for extra English tuition and are given special dispensation to use their phones in school for translation purposes.

I never learnt another language properly as I am pretty sure we didn't do languages until I was 10 and due to the classes I was put in, I switched between French and Spanish, which confused me. If I had learn just one, and from a younger age, I am sure I would have been in a much better position.

Some people are a lot more linguistically minded than others; I know a forum member who, among other jobs, does translation for Swiss railways, who is fluent in several languages and knows the basics of many more.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I think you have to go to places to be really good. My friend lived in Germany for a year and he said that ‘Goodbye’ was usually ‘Ciao’. Whether that was a fad at the time, I don’t know.

Ciao is widespread for goodbye in much of central Europe, with the exception of Poland and Hungary. In Germany, it's usually heard in the south however.

I actually learn Polish by reading Czech… the languages are similar, but the phonics to alphabet in Czech is much easier to read than Polish words written down, at least for me. They cant be that far apart, I remeber a Czech footplate crew at Wolsztyn discussing with Polish drivers.. the greeting “Dobry Den” of Czech and “Dzien Dobry” of Polish aren't that different

They're not that far apart in common language. The problem is that there's not a standardised Czech language in speech, so for instance, I can't really tell where Cieszyn Silesian ends and where the Moravian language starts. Generally speaking, in CZ, I understand the Cieszyn Silesian speakers easily, Moravian is pretty simple too, and Common Czech (the Prague dialect, mostly used when people communicate with each other from different regions) is also quite understandable. However, it's much harder in the western part of the country, especially west of Prague.

But in general, it's not difficult to talk to people in the pub or whatever, and I'm far from being a perfect Polish speaker.

Slovak on the other hand is laughably easy, especially in the east. The areas where Rusyn/Ruthenian is spoken is even easier, and I had several situations where I had to stop the person speaking and confirm with them that they were actually speaking their own language because it sounded simply like Polish.

 

[Trackman]

I know kids who are aged 12-13 who moved to the UK within the last few years, not previously knowing any English, but are now fluent in English.

For example a boy aged 13 who told me he knew no English at all when he moved from Romania just 4 years ago. However his English is so good now that anyone talking to him would think English is his first language.

Brain is still a sponge (so to speak) at that age, they have mastered basic literately and number skills in their own language so it's easier to learn a new language as the brain (or sponge!) is still hungry.. or even thirsty.

I think in Germany they start teaching the kids very basic English in kindergarten or whatever the name is for primary school rather than the Gymnasium (Gym is high school- baffling eh?).

 

[WizCastro197]

I was able to speak French fluently from around the age of 7 but n’y father was French do it was easier and easier for anyone who has a family member or anyone who is surrounded by a language other than English. I am now a level C1.
Romance languages are my strongpoint but I don’t think I’d ever be able to try a language say Germanic or Sanskrit although my granny has tried to teach me.

Languages can be exciting and learning them could be a good pastime. I try to convince people to learn a language as it’s best to not be part of the 60% of the Uk who can’t speak another language. But I wouldn’t recommend French though. Too many unfamiliar sounds to a British person and trying to speak French in a half British half French accent won’t work. But Spanish is far easier than French and there are plenty of cognates and even speaking in a British accent speaking Spanish is good enough for most!!

 

[Falcon1200]

I try to convince people to learn a language as it’s best to not be part of the 60% of the Uk who can’t speak another language.

I agree that learning a foreign language is a great thing to do, and I keep meaning to take some kind of course to revitalise my A-Level (1978 !) German. But the question for a native English speaker is which language to learn ? Because no matter which, it will only be spoken in certain countries/areas; Whereas English is widely understood, probably more so than any other language ever has been, so our incentive is lacking.

 

[duncombec]

I think you have to go to places to be really good. My friend lived in Germany for a year and he said that ‘Goodbye’ was usually ‘Ciao’. Whether that was a fad at the time, I don’t know. When I visited Naples, the way to get off the ridiculously crowded buses was ‘Permesso!’ (I may have spelt this wrongly).

I never got around to replying to this thread in more detail, but this bit made me laugh. In Germany, it is usually eingedeutscht [Germanized] as Tschau.

 

[contrex]

I never got around to replying to this thread in more detail, but this bit made me laugh. In Germany, it is usually eingedeutscht [Germanized] as Tschau.

Tchao in French, as in e.g. the Claud Berri film title Tchao Pantin.

 

[Pete_uk]

Going back to the original question, there are plenty of bilingual 8 year olds who speak fluent English and Polish about.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

What about adults who move to Germany, Poland or wherever, do they need 14 years to reach fluency?

 

[Gloster]

What about adults who move to Germany, Poland or wherever, do they need 14 years to reach fluency?

It probably depends on the person. I have known people who could speak the language fluently, even colloquially, after only a year or two. I have also met people who had been genuinely trying for a decade or more and were still capable of no more than basic practicalities. It is not just knack: your environment may be a factor. If you live with locals you probably absorb a lot, but that is less likely if you live a retired life with fellow Brits. Being British is a slight disadvantage, as so many people want to practice their English on you.

 

[johnnychips]

Being British is a slight disadvantage, as so many people want to practice their English on you.

Yes, this is very true. Also their English might be a lot better than your fluency in their language. I can speak some Dutch, but certainly in the Flanders region of Belgium, the locals - especially the younger they are - recognise your accent and then speak much better English than I could speak Dutch.