Can I claim a refund if part of 3-leg journey is cancelled?

[trainophile]

I have Advance tickets bought on Trainsplit for Southport to Greenock Central, and I now find the TPE legs between Bolton and Glasgow Central in each direction are no longer running, and the nearest TPE services are an hour and a half later outbound, and 55 minutes later return. Not relishing hanging around at Bolton (especially in the current virus-related circumstances) would it be possible to get a refund for my tickets? I can't tell from the current booking websites whether my booked trains are cancelled or just re-timed, but either way the new timings are not convenient. Would I be able to get a refund from Trainsplit?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Yes, if any of your trains are delayed, cancelled or retimed then you can get a full, fee-free refund of your ticket(s), regardless of ticket type.

TrainSplit should be more than happy to refund you in these circumstances.

 

[trainophile]

Thanks. So I don't have to claim from the TOC whose train was cancelled then?

 

[yorkie]

I have Advance tickets bought on Trainsplit for Southport to Greenock Central, and I now find the TPE legs between Bolton and Glasgow Central in each direction are no longer running, and the nearest TPE services are an hour and a half later outbound, and 55 minutes later return. Not relishing hanging around at Bolton (especially in the current virus-related circumstances) would it be possible to get a refund for my tickets? I can't tell from the current booking websites whether my booked trains are cancelled or just re-timed, but either way the new timings are not convenient. Would I be able to get a refund from Trainsplit?

If your train(s) are no longer running, your choices are either:

1) Obtain a refund from the retailer and don't travel; or
2) Make the journey and claim Delay Repay from the relevant TOC (e.g. TPE) which could potentially result in 100% delay repay if you arrive 60+ minutes late.

I do feel sorry for retailers when people choose not to travel as the TOCs do not compensate them for the additional admin work involved. It's a really unfair system.

 

[robbeech]

If you state the exact trains you were supposed to get (on your original itinerary) we should be able to tell you if the trains are cancelled or re-timed or amended in a different way although it seems it wouldn’t help as you’ve decided not to travel anyway which is fair enough.

In an ideal world a retailer would get the £10 admin fee (or a suitable admin fee of a lower amount in reality) from the cause of the refund. So if a passenger decides not to bother then they pay it as they do now, but if their journey is no longer suitable because a toc has changed the timetable or cancelled a service then really the costs of the transaction should be covered by the toc, or NR of course. This would be a massive system to implement and nobody can really be bothered given the result would be an incentive to provide a better journey for the passenger but at cost to the operator so it won’t happen.

 

[trainophile]

29/09
SOP-BON 0836-0926
BON-GLC 0944-1239 cancelled or retimed to 1120-1439
GLC-GKC 1306-1351

1/10
GKC-GLC 0947-1029
GLC-BON 1108-1405 cancelled or retimed to 1203-1505
BON-SOP 1414-1509

I appreciate it's not good news for the retailer, but that's the chance they take when they operate a purchasing agency system that relies on other companies sticking with the contracts that they are party to. On top of the virus situation it doesn't make sense to travel, and if I can use the cancelled trains as a reason to claim then obviously that's what I would want to do.

 

[robbeech]

1S40 On the 29th September, the 0907 Manchester Airport to Glasgow (due to depart Bolton at 0944) Was cancelled / removed from the timetable on 14th August.
I can't see ANY replacement train at 1120 or otherwise in the timetable at the moment, so i'm not sure when they're planning on adding them. Where have you seen an 1120?
Edit to add : Could this be an additional change at Preston like on the return making an alternative itinerary such as :
0836 Southport Bolton 0926
1120 Bolton Preston 1150 (Northern)
1203 Preston to Glasgow 1439 (TPE)
..as that fits with your arrival time, but see the alternative below with an option via Wigan

1M96 On the 1st October, The 1108 Glasgow Central to Manchester Airport (due to arrive Bolton at 1405) was cancelled / removed from the timetable similarly on the 14th August.
I CAN see the 1M87 service which is a Glasgow to Liverpool Lime Street service departing at 1203 but the timetable doesn't show it calling at / going via Bolton, so would it now suggest a further change elsewhere?

I would suspect that it would now expect the return journey to be

1203 Glasgow Central to Preston 1440
1448 Preston to Bolton 1505 (This is a TPE service from Edinburgh)
1514 Bolton to Southport 1614 (An hour later than booked).

All in all, both journeys (covered by 1 or more tickets) have been disrupted to the point you no longer wish to travel so you're entitled to a full refund from the retailer as others have already said. If that was Trainsplit you'll have no issues with obtaining this.

It's worth noting that currently there is an itinerary on the outbound journey to get you to Glasgow earlier than your original intentions.
0836 Southport Wigan Wallgate 0907
0907 Wigan Walking interchange to Wigan Northwestern
0923 Wigan North Western to Glasgow 1159 (Avanti)
It's around £50 though so may be more expensive than your current ticket.


There's another option to leave an hour earlier from Southport
0730 Southport Wigan Wallgate 0806
0806 Wigan Walking interchange
0844 Wigan Northwestern to Glasgow 1135
That's currently a mere £13.70 without railcard discount.

Not sure how favourable the price is compared to what you had before.

 

[Starmill]

If the tickets are unused and the trains were cancelled or changed, you're eligible for refund, of the whole booking, as others have said. This risk is 'priced in' by the ticket vendor, despite the fact that the policy as it stands could be seen as making it as difficult as possible for third parties to retail tickets.

 

[robbeech]

If the tickets are unused and the trains were cancelled or changed, you're eligible for refund, of the whole booking, as others have said. This risk is 'priced in' by the ticket vendor, despite the fact that the policy as it stands could be seen as making it as difficult as possible for third parties to retail tickets.

I agree, although it is factored in based upon normal running, we are running at considerably less than this and see considerably higher refund rates due to operators changing the timetables. It's worthy of note that the operators see no financial loss by changing the timetables at the minute, and even under normal circumstances the affect it has on them is minimal as they do very very little to "push" the information about timetable changes through to passengers with existing tickets so they turn up on the day to find they will be hours later than expected, or unable to complete their journey that they may already be several hours into, often rendering their journey useless. When you add in compulsory seat reservation farces to this you can end up with passengers stuck in unfamiliar parts of the country nowhere near home, or their destination with no real way to complete their journey and operators wiping their hands of all responsibility. Retailers (TOC based and third party) often lack the knowledge to deal with this type of refund request because the system (or rather the top level retailer facing data) shows that the trains ran on time so there was no disruption. This frequently results in passengers being denied refunds for a "out of a hat" excuse because the retailer has no idea how to deal with it so defaults to REJECT as per their revenue focussed training.
Those who DO travel, with delay, almost always encounter the exact same problem whilst trying to claim delay repay. A lower number will claim in the first place as they have no idea that they're entitled to it, and out of those that do claim, almost all of them will be rejected initially on the grounds that the train ran to time. A further opportunity for the passenger to give up is created here, many will take this opportunity as they're unfamiliar with the rules creating an increase in TOC revenue. Many will give up on the 2nd or 3rd rejection but the few that get past this stage will be compensated. The system works perfectly for the operator, and really quite well for the retailer and as usual, the only ones to really suffer are the passengers.

 

[trainophile]

Hi, thanks for all the new replies. Afraid I'm not nifty enough to quote bits from individual posts, but to answer a few points..

Robbeech you are quite right, I was looking on the TPE website and just picked out the couple of services with the TPE logo against them, not realising that they involve a change at Preston, which wouldn't be a problem per se but the overall lateness means it's not practical.

I did find the really cheap earlier service, and also an equivalent one coming back that was too early ex-GLC for me to get there from Greenock. Outbound it means I would either have to kill time in Glasgow (complete with luggage) or arrive at Greenock nearly two hours too early for my hotel check-in time.

Not prepared to pay another £58.45 (railcard prices) for the Avanti services SOP-GLC and return (presume existing tickets would cover GLC-GKC if I didn't get them refunded) when the tickets I hold SOP-GKC was £15.40 and GKC-SOP was £11.35, total £26.75 and booked in the last week of July when things were starting to relax a bit.

It was only a leisure trip, and as we are currently being advised that some new restrictions may be brought in it's unwise to throw good money after bad.

 

[reb0118]

Greenock? Well you've dodged a bullet there at least. Greenock is one of only two towns I've ever been "run out off" - the other being Polmont.

I inadvertently opened a door into the bingo room of a traditional Scottish "square pub wi' nae windaes" just as the local ganster's granny was about to call house. I barely escaped with my life - I still have the permanent mark from the permanent marker that was launched in my direction.

Gourock just down the road is much more genteel - & a good launch pad for a wee trip "doon the watter".

 

[trainophile]

Greenock? Well you've dodged a bullet there at least. Greenock is one of only two towns I've ever been "run out off" - the other being Polmont.

I inadvertently opened a door into the bingo room of a traditional Scottish "square pub wi' nae windaes" just as the local ganster's granny was about to call house. I barely escaped with my life - I still have the permanent mark from the permanent marker that was launched in my direction.

Gourock just down the road is much more genteel - & a good launch pad for a wee trip "doon the watter".

Lovely story. I've been to Greenock before, but never ventured into any dodgy establishments. Had a nice steak meal in the Spoons across the road from the station. Been to Gourock too, lovely little place, nice to stand and watch the ferries come and go. The town is only one street though, good place to visit for an hour or so but not much point staying there. I do love that whole part of Scotland, also across the water to Helensburgh. Sigh, the things we took for granted...

 

[gray1404]

Without checking times, would you be able to leave Southport roughly an hour later and arrive at your planned time. Then claim delay repay. Similarly on the return journey, either leaving your origin later or sit down for a drink/food at Glasgow Central (with luggage) knowing you should get 100% of the value of your ticket in comparison.

 

[trainophile]

Without checking times, would you be able to leave Southport roughly an hour later and arrive at your planned time. Then claim delay repay. Similarly on the return journey, either leaving your origin later or sit down for a drink/food at Glasgow Central (with luggage) knowing you should get 100% of the value of your ticket in comparison.

Never really considered that but thanks for the suggestion. Have just checked and it could be done, although on Northern as far as Preston, but I wouldn't get to Greenock until 15:50, so by the time I'd checked in that's the whole afternoon gone, and I was only booked for two nights. I've cancelled the hotel now anyway, luckily it was a cancellable booking.

Also I am mindful that we don't know how things are going to develop with the virus restrictions, so by the end of the month nobody may be able to travel anywhere, least of all into Scotland.