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Can I get the"admin" fee back on a refund?

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TPO

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Good morning, I have a query for the ticketing experts on this forum.

Yesterday I planned to travel Cardiff-Leicester and had booked tickets (Anytime Return) on-line with Arriva Trains Wales, I also booked parking at the station car-park via ATW's parking provider. However on arriving at Cardiff Central (at around 07:00 and in good time for the booked train), I found that I was unable to park. This was because ATW security people (wearing pink hi-vis with ATW logo) had barriered off most of the (empty) car-park. As I had pre-booked parking, I asked why this was and was told this area was being reserved solely for ATW staff as there was "an event" on. In spite of pre-booking, I was not allowed to park, so I was unable to do my journey- by the time I might have found alternative parking over at St Davids, I would have missed the train and hence my meeting.

I didn't collect my tickets, and applied for a refund on ATW website this morning, but I note they have deducted £10 from what they refunded. Given that my inability to travel was entirely due to ATW's management decisions (there was no advance warning on the pages where I purchased tickets that an event would remove customer parking) and that the transactions were wholly online, I feel that the £10 admin fee is unreasonable- after all, other on-line retailers can process refunds without charging, and in this case it wasn't that I changed my mind on a whim, rather it was the uncommunicated decision by ATW that prevented me from travelling, and had I know in advance they were planning that, I would have not even considered using the train that day.

So..... is there any way that I might be able to get this unfair "admin fee" back? The website doesn't seem to give any info about that, and apparently the only refund mechanism is the one I used (via the website) as that is how I purchased the ticket.

(I am also trying to get a refund on the £12.60 pre-paid car park fee from the car parking provider, but I suspect they will fob me off and tell me to contact ATW.......)

As it happens, in the event I drove to my destination and got there 30 min earlier than I would have done if I had been on the booked train. There's a lesson here ATW- and the consequence that I won't be even considering using the train for my next visits to Leicester tomorrow and next week! (Although maybe DB don't care about losing regular Anytime Return fares of £127 a pop?)

Thanks in advance for any info.

TPO

PS- Mods, sorry if this is in the wrong sub-forum, I could not decide if this should properly be here or in "disputes & prosecutions"
 
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Haywain

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If the train ticket was booked separately from the car parking, then I doubt you have any entitlement to having the admin fee returned. The NRCoT allow for an admin fee to be charged on all refunds, and this one wasn't due to the failure of the train company to provide the service. Whether ATW should have known and advised you that there may be a shortage of car parking space on the day is a debatable but separate issue.
 

mallard

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The NRCoT allow for an admin fee to be charged on all refunds

No, under 30.1 no admin fee can be charged when the passenger chooses not to travel or abandons their journey and returns to their origin due to disruption. Where "disruption" means that the train is delayed, cancelled or reservations are not honoured. It'd be a bit of a stretch to argue that this could include a parking reservation though.

Alternatively, the OP could check to see whether the train actually departed on time. According to Realtimetrains, the 07:45 to Nottingham, which may be the train they were intending to travel on actually departed Cardiff 3 minutes late. Note that 30.1 entitles you to a refund if "the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed, or your reservation will not be honoured, and you decide not to travel", with no requirment that the delay be any particular length or that it affects your (expected) arrival time nor is there any explicit requirement that the delay, cancellation or non-honoured reservation is the actual reason for the decision not to travel...
 

Joe Paxton

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OP - I'd contact ATW customer service about this issue, asking for a refund of both the £10 admin fee and also the pre-paid parking fee (as they manage the station car park at Cardiff Central).

I'd include a screenshot or PDF of your car park booking confirmation.

As ever, best to keep it short and sweet.
 

Haywain

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No, under 30.1 no admin fee can be charged when the passenger chooses not to travel or abandons their journey and returns to their origin due to disruption. Where "disruption" means that the train is delayed, cancelled or reservations are not honoured. It'd be a bit of a stretch to argue that this could include a parking reservation though.
You are quite right about the disruption option, but thee is no way this can be extended to being unable to park a car, especially when the car parking had been booked separately. That's why I didn't mention such an exception.

Alternatively, the OP could check to see whether the train actually departed on time. According to Realtimetrains, the 07:45 to Nottingham, which may be the train they were intending to travel on actually departed Cardiff 3 minutes late. Note that 30.1 entitles you to a refund if "the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed, or your reservation will not be honoured, and you decide not to travel", with no requirment that the delay be any particular length or that it affects your (expected) arrival time nor is there any explicit requirement that the delay, cancellation or non-honoured reservation is the actual reason for the decision not to travel...
Well, the OP could do this but they state they have already applied for the refund. As the reason has to be given at the time of requesting the refund, this is all a bit late and therefore wouldn't really stand up to scrutiny being brought up later.
 

Haywain

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OP - I'd contact ATW customer service about this issue, asking for a refund of both the £10 admin fee and also the pre-paid parking fee (as they manage the station car park at Cardiff Central).
I agree with the first part, but ATW do not appear to manage the car parking.
 

Joe Paxton

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I agree with the first part, but ATW do not appear to manage the car parking.

The car park sounds like it is one of the three station car parks at Cardiff Central (info), in which case whilst ATW has contracted NCP to manage the car parks, ATW remain ultimately responsible for them as the Station Facilities Owner.
 

TPO

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Hi, thanks for the replies so far.

It is the ATW Station Car-park I mean, and it was ATW who closed it off and made it unavailable- the people doing it had tabards with the ATW logo on. So ATW directly caused the station car-park to be unavailable. If they had been clear on their website page when I bought the ticket I would have not travelled- it was all under their ocntrol and evidently pr-planned enough to engage a bunch of extra people and put barriers out all over the place!

I hadn't thought of the delay issue, I planned to get the 07:26 to Pad then change at Bristol Parkway and Birmingham as the journey is 30 min quicker this way than using the direct Cardiff-Birmingham route- and I had seat reservations booked for this series of trains (I didn't split tickets at Cheltenham to be sure I could reserve a seat all the way). The trains I booked were the ones that the ATW website put as being the proper connections- so I wasn't cutting it fine or anything. However on the travel news (came on in the car as I headed up the M5), it did say that all trains through Bridgend were delayed due to late engineering work, and I did think that I was glad I hadn't been on the original train as I would most probably have missed the onward connection at Bristol Parkway. I don't know how to check the 07:26 and see how late it was at Bristol Parkway, and whether or not the connectign train to Birmingham was also delayed or ran right time ahead of the London train.

I paid for both train ticket and car-park on a debit card not a credit card.

I am expecting from what the informed people on here say to lose the £22.60, I guess all that means is that next time I might take the train I won't. Lesson learnt, the hard way. And at least I made my destination- ahead of planned time.

But thanks to all on here who have responded so quickly!
 

Nick66

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The admin fee may be problematic but I don’t see how they can refuse to refund the parking fee. You had a contract which wasn’t honoured so they have to give you your money back. Whether they are also responsible for consequential losses I will leave to the lawyers.
 

bb21

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Speak to customer service. They will have more discretion than web sales. Explain your circumstances in an email as you explained here. I would expect a positive result re: the admin fee.

Can't comment on the parking charges as that is not something I have decent experience of, but it is worth a try. If you don't ask, ...
 

Haywain

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I agree with bb21 abut contacting customer services (or whatever ATW call it) and giving the full story. I think it is important to include the bit about how it's left you feeling:
As it happens, in the event I drove to my destination and got there 30 min earlier than I would have done if I had been on the booked train. There's a lesson here ATW- and the consequence that I won't be even considering using the train for my next visits to Leicester tomorrow and next week! (Although maybe DB don't care about losing regular Anytime Return fares of £127 a pop?)
As the man says, if you don't ask...
 

MikeWh

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I planned to get the 07:26 to Pad then change at Bristol Parkway and Birmingham as the journey is 30 min quicker this way than using the direct Cardiff-Birmingham route- and I had seat reservations booked for this series of trains (I didn't split tickets at Cheltenham to be sure I could reserve a seat all the way). The trains I booked were the ones that the ATW website put as being the proper connections- so I wasn't cutting it fine or anything. However on the travel news (came on in the car as I headed up the M5), it did say that all trains through Bridgend were delayed due to late engineering work, and I did think that I was glad I hadn't been on the original train as I would most probably have missed the onward connection at Bristol Parkway. I don't know how to check the 07:26 and see how late it was at Bristol Parkway, and whether or not the connectign train to Birmingham was also delayed or ran right time ahead of the London train.
The 0726 was 8 minutes late from Cardiff but you'd still have got the connection (which incidentally is the 0700 from Cardiff which reverses in Temple Meads hence it's overtaken). The second train was only 3 minutes late at New Street so you'd almost certainly have been fine.
 

TPO

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Aye well, like I said, lesson learnt. The principle that if the TOC makes a key journey-supporting service (station car-park) unavailable without notice or without clear warning, and if they issue a refund for uncollected tickets all done electronically, they can still charge a tenner is outrageous in this day and age. Similarly, they should have advised their parking provider not to sell parking in advance. It's no longer 1980, and if ATW wishes to treat me as a customer like that, fine, I shall take my custom somewhere else.

Yesterday, I did a return trip to Leicester by car. Next week I shall do the same. I cannot risk losing £22.60 every journey (and still end up doing it by car), so henceforth the train option is off my list.

As for complaining to customer services- I am under no illusions, I very much doubt ATW would care a monkeys at losing one customer, in the big scheme of things my experience is utterly miniscule; however if the rail sector doesn't buck it's ideas up then there will be lots more TPOs about and over time the passenger rail sector will lose credibility, funding will be questioned and back to the 1970s/1980s. In time, electric cars and smart m-ways will challenge passenger rail travel; there's an argument that it would be better putting freight on rail (rail freight is after all not subsidised and increasingly innovative in certain places) and focusing on tram/metro systems and "active travel" for city commuters plus more home working, leaving more capacity for long-distance/lesure travel by road. That's a viable future- and one that TOCs ignore at their peril!

These experiences are always educational, as is reading these forums- at times when I read about ticketing, it seems inccredible how much power and how little accountability TOCs have, especially with things like staff who are not sufficiently trained in what routes are valid on a ticket. But that is drifting off topic, so I'll close it here ;)

TPO
 

Hadders

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Please do write to ATW customer services. Chances are they will do something if you write a concise letter/email detailing the issue.
 

Haywain

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Of course, if you prefer to be on the outrage bus and believe that nothing will be done in response to any comments you choose not to make, then please go ahead. You'll be right, nothing will be done about something you choose not to mention.
 
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