Carriage livery post-1948 nationalisation

[Taunton]

Can someone comment on when the main BR livery for coaching stock came into being.

Nationalisation was from January 1948, when all four railways seem to have finally been able to start building post-war replacement stock. BR standard stock didn't start to arrive until 3 years later, in 1951, which I believe was the first in the carmine and cream livery, thereafter adopted universally - or did it come in beforehand. When did the instruction go out to change over from the old liveries to the new standard? And did everyone follow suit (I believe the Southern managed to stick with green for hauled stock for a further period by saying they were just "revarnishing", for what was effectively a full repaint).

 

[yorksrob]

Our Southern Region multiple units remained in Green until corporate blue came in.

The phase 1 CIG's were were delivered in Southern Green (1964) whereas the Bournemouth line electrification stock was blue from the start (1967).

 

[Darren R]

The short answer is that it took a while for liveries to be standardised; in fact it took a while for 'the Powers that be' at the Railway Executive to even decide what the standard livery was to be.

Less than a month after nationalisation a 'beauty contest' was organised to decide upon the future BR livery. Held at Kensington Olympia on 30 January, a selection of ex-LMS 4-6-0 locomotives were paraded in GWR green, LNER green, Southern malachite green and LNWR black (which apparently stole the show.) Additionally there was a SR electric locomotive in light blue.

Coaching stock included a variation of GWR chocolate and cream, a red one which was some way off being true Midland crimson lake, and an EMU in Southern green. Despite all the effort, it was largely a PR exercise and no firm decisions were made other than to apply the GWR green to express passenger locos, and a further exhibition at Marylebone was arranged with yet more liveries on show.

After this, it was announced that liveries were to be standardised. Royal blue with black and white lining was to be used for heavy duty express passenger locos, green with black and orange lining was to be applied on all other passenger locos and all the rest in black.

However, this decision didn't last long, and in the summer of 1948 14 trains in experimental liveries appeared in service on selected mainline and cross-country routes. Again this was a PR exercise, with the public being invited to send in their comments to the Executive. The trail liveries were:

- blue with lining of red, cream and grey for the most powerful express passenger locos
- green with lining of red, cream and grey for other express pasenger locos
- black with lining of red, grey and cream for mixed traffic locos
- unlined black for freight locos
- plum and spilt milk lined with bands of yellow-maroon-yellow seperated by lines of spilt milk for main-line corridor trains
- chocolate and cream lined with black and golden yellow, also for main-line corridor coaches
- maroon lined with golden yellow-black-golden yellow for local suburban coaching stock
- green for EMUs

After the experimental liveries had been given several months' trial, the lining on some of the black locos was quietly dropped, and the lining of green engines was changed to orange-black-orange. The plum and spilt milk and chocolate and cream for coaching stock was also abandoned, although it was many years before the liveries themselves disappeared from rolling stock. It was at this time that the famous blood and custard livery became standard. Non-corridor coaches and non-passenger coaching stock were painted red overall.

The answer to the question about how long it took for liveries to be applied to coaching stock is no simpler. Although pre-nationalisation liveries disappeared very quickly, it took a long time for the BR standard liveries to appear on all rolling stock, not helped by constant changes of heart at Marylebone Road (and its heirs and successors.) Although blood and custard was subsequently dropped, and Southern green was only supposed to be carried by multiple units, both liveries managed to cling on. Trains formed of a mixture of blood and custard, all-over maroon and rail blue/grey were not uncommon, even in the 70s!

 

[sprinterguy]

The following web page should prove useful to you:
http://www.bloodandcustard.com/bloodandcustardhistory.html

Here's a couple of pertinent excerpts:

In terms of passenger carrying stock, British Railways’ Crimson and Cream livery first appeared around 1949. This livery rapidly gained the nickname ‘Blood and Custard’. The original edict was for main line corridor stock to be in Crimson and Cream livery and local steam and passenger brake vans to have just Crimson Lake...

...British Railways’ Mark I prototypes coaches arrived in 1950, followed in 1951 by the first production coaches. For Mk1 locomotive-hauled stock the specification was generally simple to adopt; corridor coaches receiving ‘Blood and Custard’ livery and non-corridor stock received crimson. However, on the railways ‘exceptions’ frequently arise and some batches of ‘BG’ full-brakes received plain crimson. Indeed this general overview will miss out a number of ‘exceptions’!

Multiple unit stock was generally (but not always) green livery and Pullman cars retained their Pullman livery.

The Southern Region rapidly reverted to using green livery on its repaints and the Western Region adopted chocolate and cream for its named express trains; possibly a slightly ironic decision given the decision to abolish cream! The Western Region used chocolate and cream until 1962 when it followed the other regions and adopted maroon livery for most of its hauled-coaching fleet. Generally these chocolate and cream coaches sported carriage ‘roundels’; useful for identifying them in black and white photographs.

On the Southern, in July 1956 Mk1 coaches S9 and S80009 were amongst the last coaches to leave Eastleigh in ‘Blood and Custard’ livery. However, the Southern’s expert varnishing techniques along with the use of fixed coaching sets (denoted by 6” high numbers on the set ends) and their associated maintenance regime may well have assisted in prolonging ‘Blood and Custard’ livery on some Mk1s into the 1960s.

It must be noted that when ‘foreign’ maroon liveried coaches were transferred onto the Southern they were usually very rapidly repainted green. Ironically some Southern Region Mk1 coaches that were redeployed onto the Midland Region remained in green livery as late as 1969.

 

[Taunton]

Thank you for these notes.

I am aware that the Southern sailed close to the wind with several aspects to minimise the amount of non-green stock they had. Having electric units officially in green was of course a good start for them. Meanwhile on the Western, going from brown and cream to crimson and cream is not particularly apparent in the predominantly black-and-white photographs of the day, so difficult to tell. I seem to recall that in the final shot of "The Titfield Thunderbolt", which has a WR express entering Bristol TM in the background (and is in colour, of course) the train was in a mixture of the two schemes but you still have to look twice to tell them apart.

I always thought that "plum and spilt milk" and "blood and custard" were two soubriquets for the same thing, which was officially "carmine and cream". Were they actually different.

In terms of passenger carrying stock, British Railways’ Crimson and Cream livery first appeared around 1949.

I presume therefore that until into 1949 the old railway colour schemes were still used, apart from the trials. Locomotives seem to have been standardised a lot earlier.

 

[theageofthetra]

Do any colour shots exist of the exhibitions described in the earlier post?

 

[sprinterguy]

I always thought that "plum and spilt milk" and "blood and custard" were two soubriquets for the same thing, which was officially "carmine and cream". Were they actually different.

It is my understanding that the lower panels were a bit darker and the upper panels a bit lighter on the "plum and spilt milk" experimental livery compared to the carmine and cream livery adopted as standard. Certainly, this would be the case if the livery was similar to the original LNWR scheme from which it was derived.

It's difficult to ascertain from black and white photos, but there is a shot of a Merchant Navy hauling plum and spilt milk liveried stock near the bottom of this page:
http://www.semgonline.com/steam/mn_01.html

I presume therefore that until into 1949 the old railway colour schemes were still used, apart from the trials. Locomotives seem to have been standardised a lot earlier.

I’m not sure that the liveries for locomotives were standardised very much faster: During 1948, locomotives generally continued to be outshopped in the liveries of the big four (excepting those that gained experimental liveries in the move towards standardisation), with “BRITISH RAILWAYS” lettering on the tender, typically using the standard font of the pre-nationalisation company. Certainly, it was only in spring 1949 that the “lion over wheel” emblem was adopted as standard, presumably on top of the newly devised standard navy blue, Brunswick green and black liveries, so little different to the timescale for the introduction of “blood and custard” on coaching stock.

Pre-nationalisation liveries did indeed continue to be perpetuated on coaching stock in a similar fashion (usually with just the pre-nationalisation company insignia omitted and the regional prefix added to the vehicle number) until the standard carmine and cream livery was adopted.

 

[30907]

Mike King, An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches, gives April 1949 for the first stock to be painted crimson and cream (the Newhaven Boat set of Maunsells), and reckons that 60-70% had been so (re)painted by 1956. This doesn't suggest the SR was particularly slow off the mark.

From photographs there was certainly plenty of non corridor stock in red, and I remember a trip on the Westerham branch (in 1958-9) in stock which was definitely red not emu green (and gangwayed, so probably the regular ex railmotor set, though being 6-7 at the time I can't confirm that!).

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Oddly enough, I was just thinking about this subject earlier today.

I understand that after 1923 grouping into the Big Four, the carrieages were mainly painted in Green for the Southern, Chocolate & Cream for the GWR, Maroon for the LMS and on the mainline East Coast LNER from Kings Cross, I think they had the Teak Sets, (Some of which still operate I think on the NYMr & SVR?)

What liveries were used on the Eastern Anglia trains from Liverpool Street).

Then, as is mentioned above, the colours did not change much after 1948, on the SR-Green which I remember very well, Chocolate & Cream on the WR and the LM Maroon, again what was used on the ER ?

 

[AM9]

Oddly enough, I was just thinking about this subject earlier today.

I understand that after 1923 grouping into the Big Four, the carrieages were mainly painted in Green for the Southern, Chocolate & Cream for the GWR, Maroon for the LMS and on the mainline East Coast LNER from Kings Cross, I think they had the Teak Sets, (Some of which still operate I think on the NYMr & SVR?)

What liveries were used on the Eastern Anglia trains from Liverpool Street).

I remember the ex LNER Gresley teak stock and the Thompson steel corridor stock passing through Ilford and Stratford on Norwich and Yarmouth trains as mixtures of maroon and 'blood and custard'. The Gresley stock never looked good in either colour but the Thompson stuff was OK.
Another issue is that the Southern green used on EMUs and mainline LHCS was a different colour (malachite green?) to the GE Shenfield and Southend units which was more like BR Loco green.

 

[30907]

LNER painted Thompson steel panelled stock in mock teak. Prewar excursion stock was apple green and cream as were railcars. I seem to recall reading that ex GE stock was painted brown.