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Class 158 air conditioning

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47271

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Sounds like it's mainly the GWR and ATW 158s that have the air con faults with Northern and Scotrail 158s being more reliable. Different ROSCOs or just luck?
Luckily I haven't been on any Scotrail 158s since the very warm weather started this year, but there were plenty of rubbish ones last summer.
 
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Jamesrob637

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Bring on the fridge I say!

I had 4 different Northern 158s over 2 days last weekend and each and everyone was nice and cool with 1 of them acceptionally so to the point where stepping from train to platform was noticeable. Say what you like about them but Northern do seam to know what to do with 158s. Those praising the Scotrail sets I think we must have different experiences as Iv not had a cool scotrail unit in years

I wish we had 158s on my line as all those I've been on in Lancashire and Yorkshire have been fine temperature wise for the season. Sadly they're banned from the Buxton line and running them on locals to Crewe would be a waste as it'd be diesel under the juice the whole way plus they'd have to run in pairs to match the capacity of a 323 (notwithstanding the fact that their acceleration is nowhere near as fast as that of a 323!)
 

superkev

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The 158 air conditioning issue seems to appear each summer for the last 20 years or so and typifies the railway industries attitude to its passengers. I learnt to stick to my car in warm weather.
Ian Walmsley of Modern Railways suggested a while back that if the emergency hoppers were removed the maintenance people would have to 're-prioritise air conditioning faults.
Yesterday I noticed Northern s recently refreshed 158 752 with all its emergency hoppers opened.
K
 

theageofthetra

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The 158 air conditioning issue seems to appear each summer for the last 20 years or so and typifies the railway industries attitude to its passengers. I learnt to stick to my car in warm weather.
Ian Walmsley of Modern Railways suggested a while back that if the emergency hoppers were removed the maintenance people would have to 're-prioritise air conditioning faults.
Yesterday I noticed Northern s recently refreshed 158 752 with all its emergency hoppers opened.
K

The most ridiculous thing is the painting of trains and the roofs in particular in a dark colour. I met someone a few years ago who fitted AC systems on yachts and they reckoned that dark blue (popular with Scandanvian boaters) painted yachts needed something like 15% greater AC capacity just purely due to their colour & much higher if moved to the Caribbean for the winter season.
 

gareth950

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If the problem is the ban on CFCs, why aren't the HSTs so affected? They are much older.

This is a good question, although air con does fail on HSTs as well, and when it does I know from experience that the affected carriages are literally unbearable in hot weather as there are no 'emergency' windows to open.

Were HSTs originally designed to have CFC air con? If they were, it does suggest that maybe air con faults on HSTs are given greater priority than 158s because there are no windows to open in HST carriages so it HAS to be fixed ASAP.
 

47271

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This is a good question, although air con does fail on HSTs as well, and when it does I know from experience that the affected carriages are literally unbearable in hot weather as there are no 'emergency' windows to open.

Were HSTs originally designed to have CFC air con? If they were, it does suggest that maybe air con faults on HSTs are given greater priority than 158s because there are no windows to open in HST carriages so it HAS to be fixed ASAP.
Just open the droplights and prop open the vestibule doors. Works a treat on Caledonian Sleeper mk2s so long as you're doing more than 40mph. Granted I've never experienced this ventilation method at 125mph.

A mk4 with no aircon on a hot day is a different matter entirely...
 

gareth950

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Just open the droplights and prop open the vestibule doors. Works a treat on Caledonian Sleeper mk2s so long as you're doing more than 40mph. Granted I've never experienced this ventilation method at 125mph.

It doesn't work very well at all especially as the air immediately outside the train is already warm or hot. You just get a warm breeze towards the ends of the carriage. It also makes for a very noisy journey, with the vestibules being deafening!
 
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broadgage

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Moving hot air is more comfortable than non-moving hot air.

Yes, and moving hot dry air is more comfortable than moving hot humid air.
Under most conditions the outside air will be less humid than that within a non air-conditioned train.

Still a very poor substitute for working air conditioning though.
 

Crossover

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Sounds like it's mainly the GWR and ATW 158s that have the air con faults with Northern and Scotrail 158s being more reliable. Different ROSCOs or just luck?

Northern aren't that great - it seems to stop working when the temperature starts increasing, from past experience!

Would it be financially viable (given the age of the 158s) for GWR to replace the entire air con system in their 158s with the system used by SWTs in their 158s/159s?

As has been stated before, it is nothing to do with GWR - the leasing company has to make the decision on changes like that

This is a good question, although air con does fail on HSTs as well, and when it does I know from experience that the affected carriages are literally unbearable in hot weather as there are no 'emergency' windows to open.

Were HSTs originally designed to have CFC air con? If they were, it does suggest that maybe air con faults on HSTs are given greater priority than 158s because there are no windows to open in HST carriages so it HAS to be fixed ASAP.

Just open the droplights and prop open the vestibule doors. Works a treat on Caledonian Sleeper mk2s so long as you're doing more than 40mph. Granted I've never experienced this ventilation method at 125mph.

A mk4 with no aircon on a hot day is a different matter entirely...

I have been on a Mk 2 that had no air conditioning on a railtour last year in the height of summer, all the way from Margate to Huddersfield - we had the vestibule doors held open and all the windows down in the vestibules but it didn't help too much and was a pretty uncomfortable experience. In fact, quite a few of us hung about in the vestibule to get some moving air
 

cjmillsnun

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Yes, and moving hot dry air is more comfortable than moving hot humid air.
Under most conditions the outside air will be less humid than that within a non air-conditioned train.

Still a very poor substitute for working air conditioning though.

Part of what A/C does it is dehumidifies the air. The Air con will make the air LESS humid than the outside. This is why you will often see small puddles of water underneath parked cars on a hot day.
 
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DPWH

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I've been on a really packed train when the aircon can't cope, and the oxygen levels seem to fall as well. There is a lot to be said in favour of traditional pressure ventilation, at least it gets the oxygen into people.
 

broadgage

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I've been on a really packed train when the aircon can't cope, and the oxygen levels seem to fall as well. There is a lot to be said in favour of traditional pressure ventilation, at least it gets the oxygen into people.

I would be very surprised indeed if the oxygen level fell significantly. The oxygen concentration can be measured with an instrument sold for the purpose, though it is not something carried by the average passenger.

Excessively warm and humid conditions can be very unpleasant but not normally due to lack of oxygen.
 

cf111

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Luckily I haven't been on any Scotrail 158s since the very warm weather started this year, but there were plenty of rubbish ones last summer.

I was overjoyed to see a 170+158 arrive on the 1702 Elgin-Inverness on Friday instead of the usual 2x158, the 170 was like an icebox, wonderful.
 

Kentish Paul

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Anyone found the most consistent aircon?
All my years of commuting on HS1 on a 395 i never came across a failure. OK not every trip was in high summer but those that were i cannot remember a warm trip.
Reminds me of Japanese and Korean hire cars in the Med which basically threw ice cubes at you from the vents in high summer.
 

EssexGonzo

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Anyone found the most consistent aircon?
All my years of commuting on HS1 on a 395 i never came across a failure. OK not every trip was in high summer but those that were i cannot remember a warm trip.
Reminds me of Japanese and Korean hire cars in the Med which basically threw ice cubes at you from the vents in high summer.

I'd have to say that every C2C (357?) unit I've been on has been nice and cool in the summer, even when packed and standing.

Whereas GA's 360s always seem to have working aircon but set at too high a temperature, feels like 25/25 deg C.
 

47271

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Anyone found the most consistent aircon?
All my years of commuting on HS1 on a 395 i never came across a failure. OK not every trip was in high summer but those that were i cannot remember a warm trip.
Reminds me of Japanese and Korean hire cars in the Med which basically threw ice cubes at you from the vents in high summer.
Desiros in my experience. The problem with them is that they're consistently too cold however warm it is outside, but it's a long time since I've been on one with dud aircon, and I'm on them a lot between SWT and Transpennine.

Turbostars really aren't that bad either.

I agree on 395s, I don't use them much but the aircon is pretty sound, to the extent that you don't notice the chill blast like you do on a 350.

Funnily enough I've never had a bad do on a 159, and I've been on quite a few of them on warm days.
 
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TEW

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I have not found SWT Desiros to be great recently. The last couple of years in the Summer they have been very inconsistent, some are lovely and cool, but a lot feel pretty stuffy, it feels like they have turned the temperature up and they are no longer cool enough for the height of Summer. There was a also a big problem this Winter with quite a significant number of units where the heating was not working, and the air conditioning was on full.
 

PHILIPE

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From reading tweets to TOCs especially during this spell over the last few days I am reading little else but Aircon, Aircon, Aircon and on it goes. This does not seem to be confined to Class 158s either but very prevalent on HSTs. I'm afraid I can't recommend a solution myself as I'm not technical minded.
I think some radical action should be taken, cross TOC and Rosco getting heads together otherwise the situation will continue all Summer and into next Summer if left as it is. The problem with 158s has been with us ever since they were introduced in 1990 but some TOCs fleets seem more reliable than others.
TOCs keep telling passengers to speak to the Conductor/Train Manager to ask if they can adjust the system or will report unit by unit to Maintenance Control.
Alternatively can water be handed out to passengers.
 

Starmill

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Interesting contrast on a recent boiling hot day where I was on a well loaded GWR 158 which had working air conditioning in only one coach - but it was keeping that coach cool. The 444 I then boarded had cool air coming from the vents but only a trickle. The coach was only about half full and yet it was still baking.

The air conditioning on 158889 the other day was excellent.
 

PHILIPE

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Interesting contrast on a recent boiling hot day where I was on a well loaded GWR 158 which had working air conditioning in only one coach - but it was keeping that coach cool. The 444 I then boarded had cool air coming from the vents but only a trickle. The coach was only about half full and yet it was still baking.

The air conditioning on 158889 the other day was excellent.

SWT 158s seem to be much much better.
 

Mikey C

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Was on a 166 yesterday with the aircon on and the windows open...
 

edwin_m

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Not looking forward to a trip from Nottingham to Glasgow tomorrow, two hours on a 158 and a walk across Warrington. I'll be mighty peeved if my train from Bank Quay doesn't have aircon either.
 

Philip

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Air conditioning has become such an important issue these days, so how did people cope on hot days as little as 20 years ago when most trains didn't have it at all?
 

Kite159

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Air conditioning has become such an important issue these days, so how did people cope on hot days as little as 20 years ago when most trains didn't have it at all?

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't most trains 20 years ago have a lot more windows which could be opened to allow air to circulate.

158s & 166s only have a limited number of little hoppers so when the AC breaks you haven't got that backup of opening at every window
 

PHILIPE

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Air conditioning has become such an important issue these days, so how did people cope on hot days as little as 20 years ago when most trains didn't have it at all?

Because you just had the temperature inside the coach and not the system blowing out hot air on top of it. It could still be rather warm at times, though.
 
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SpacePhoenix

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Can train crews reboot or reset the air con or is anything like that strictly fitters only?
 

D365

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Can train crews reboot or reset the air con or is anything like that strictly fitters only?

Eh, you reckon it runs proper software?

I mean I guess it's possible to trip the MCB out and back in.
 

Bornin1980s

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Are newborn babies in danger? You see, the monitor for my sister's six month old baby says 'too hot' if the temperature reaches 25c. She has to travel on a long distance Crosscountry service in the morning.
 

yorksrob

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Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't most trains 20 years ago have a lot more windows which could be opened to allow air to circulate.

You are correct. Those with a door/droplight to every seating bay were particularly good for hot summer days.
 
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