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Class 220/221/222 window survey

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Railperf

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I am noting that quite a few of the Class 22x have 'blown' window glass - the exterior tint is much darker than usual with a build up of condensation inside.
This might seem a strange request but I am looking for reports of set numbers with these blown windows.
Last night I noted that 222005 had two such panes of glass in coach B. One in Coach A and another one or two in first class.
Any further reports welcome.
 
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spotify95

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I've seen this previously with the Class 222s as well. Not that EMR are going to do anything about this, since the 222s are being replaced in the next few years.

My biggest gripe with the windows of the 22x's are that they have metal foil in them somewhere - perfect for RF screening, so you can't get 3G/4G (and the on board wi-fi gets completely overloaded as a result). You also can't pick up FM/DAB for the same reasoning!
 

Bletchleyite

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I think some are also fitted backwards, which results in a different colour appearance from the outside. Looks really sloppy, a bit like fitting multiple colour temperatures in the lighting.
 

aleandrail

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I am noting that quite a few of the Class 22x have 'blown' window glass - the exterior tint is much darker than usual with a build up of condensation inside.
This might seem a strange request but I am looking for reports of set numbers with these blown windows.
Last night I noted that 222005 had two such panes of glass in coach B. One in Coach A and another one or two in first class.
Any further reports welcome.
I think some are also fitted backwards, which results in a different colour appearance from the outside. Looks really sloppy, a bit like fitting multiple colour temperatures in the lighting.
I will update you when I can
 

Railperf

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I will update you when I can
I noted that sitting beside the darker tint windows, mobile phone reception is much better, so either the replacement glass is an inferior quality or a different brand. The standard glass 'as supplied' seems to have a mettalic tint applied to reflect sunlight , but also blocks most radio signals. IIRC some Voyagers were fitted with mobile phone repeaters internally to overcome this issue. Not sure how successful that was.
 

spotify95

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I think some are also fitted backwards, which results in a different colour appearance from the outside. Looks really sloppy, a bit like fitting multiple colour temperatures in the lighting.
The 222s also suffer from this issue as well - there are some of the smaller box style lights (just below/on the overhead racks) that have had different color temperatures - some have been warm white and some cool white. (Having said that, the 360 I was on yesterday also had two different color temperatures!).
The 222s also have halogen spotlights as the main lights for the walkways - why not fluorescent or (preferably) LED?

I noted that sitting beside the darker tint windows, mobile phone reception is much better, so either the replacement glass is an inferior quality or a different brand. The standard glass 'as supplied' seems to have a mettalic tint applied to reflect sunlight , but also blocks most radio signals. IIRC some Voyagers were fitted with mobile phone repeaters internally to overcome this issue. Not sure how successful that was.

Interesting. I can only assume that, as you say, the replacement glass has no reflective coating. Either that, or they might be fitted backwards (as another poster commented)? But would fitting the windows backwards still block RF - unless the RF shielding is designed to be one way?

I did hear of Voyagers having repeaters, but not supporting all networks. Mobile repeaters are a bit complicated because, not only would you have to make sure that all UK networks are compatible, but also all of the frequency bands too (which differ between operators).
It would be easier and more straightforward to just replace all of the glass in the 22x stock, with non reflective glass. Besides, the 22x series should have on board air conditioning to deal ith excessive temperatures?
 

Railperf

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The 222s also suffer from this issue as well - there are some of the smaller box style lights (just below/on the overhead racks) that have had different color temperatures - some have been warm white and some cool white. (Having said that, the 360 I was on yesterday also had two different color temperatures!).
The 222s also have halogen spotlights as the main lights for the walkways - why not fluorescent or (preferably) LED?



Interesting. I can only assume that, as you say, the replacement glass has no reflective coating. Either that, or they might be fitted backwards (as another poster commented)? But would fitting the windows backwards still block RF - unless the RF shielding is designed to be one way?

I did hear of Voyagers having repeaters, but not supporting all networks. Mobile repeaters are a bit complicated because, not only would you have to make sure that all UK networks are compatible, but also all of the frequency bands too (which differ between operators).
It would be easier and more straightforward to just replace all of the glass in the 22x stock, with non reflective glass. Besides, the 22x series should have on board air conditioning to deal ith excessive temperatures?
Am i right in believing reflective glass would reduce the amount of sunligfht heating up the passenger saloon - therefore saving weight, size and cost (plus running costs) of the a/c units fitted.
 

spotify95

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I know today that the 07:51 departure from Wellingborough (can't remember what train number) had a couple of blown windows in Coach C, near seats 51 and 52?
There must have also been some replacement glass in this train as 4G was coming through with no issues today!

Am i right in believing reflective glass would reduce the amount of sunligfht heating up the passenger saloon - therefore saving weight, size and cost (plus running costs) of the a/c units fitted.

Possibly, but then you have to install wireless repeaters throughout the train, or significantly upgrade the wi-fi systems so that they don't crawl to a grinding halt, or give speeds in the region of 0.2Mbps...

I'm sure there are ways of reducing the amount of warmth in the saloon without using beefier A/C units and using RF blocking materials?
 

Railperf

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I know today that the 07:51 departure from Wellingborough (can't remember what train number) had a couple of blown windows in Coach C, near seats 51 and 52?
There must have also been some replacement glass in this train as 4G was coming through with no issues today!



Possibly, but then you have to install wireless repeaters throughout the train, or significantly upgrade the wi-fi systems so that they don't crawl to a grinding halt, or give speeds in the region of 0.2Mbps...

I'm sure there are ways of reducing the amount of warmth in the saloon without using beefier A/C units and using RF blocking materials?
Possibly the aluminium bodies units are lighter - Hitachi IET and Stadler bi-modes - allowing heavier A/C equipment. It seems Siemens, Bombardier and CAF are the worst offenders for RF blocking glass. Class 374 Eurostar, Bombardier Zefiro (ETR400) and ICE 3 units are among the worst. Class 397 and CAF MK5 are also tough to get any signal in but better than any 22X. Pendolino trains have a less sever coating than the CAF trains, plus Siemens Desiro units.
 

aleandrail

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I am noting that quite a few of the Class 22x have 'blown' window glass - the exterior tint is much darker than usual with a build up of condensation inside.
This might seem a strange request but I am looking for reports of set numbers with these blown windows.
Last night I noted that 222005 had two such panes of glass in coach B. One in Coach A and another one or two in first class.
Any further reports welcome.
Not sure if you still have a interest in the state of the windows but set two had six new windows put in today
 

spotify95

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Not sure if you still have a interest in the state of the windows but set two had six new windows put in today
That's interesting to know. Let's hope these new windows aren't the same original spec ones with the metal RF screening!

Should make the train look more appealing from the outside, too.
Th

Possibly the aluminium bodies units are lighter - Hitachi IET and Stadler bi-modes - allowing heavier A/C equipment. It seems Siemens, Bombardier and CAF are the worst offenders for RF blocking glass. Class 374 Eurostar, Bombardier Zefiro (ETR400) and ICE 3 units are among the worst. Class 397 and CAF MK5 are also tough to get any signal in but better than any 22X. Pendolino trains have a less sever coating than the CAF trains, plus Siemens Desiro units.

I'm not surprised that some of the newer rolling stock have windows that try and deflect the heat away. Though as you mention, the most ideal way would be to allow for better air conditioning in the trains, without adversely affecting performance of the train itself - which would allow for standard glass (with no metal RF screening) to be used.

The Mk5s you mention are part of the Caledonian Sleeper - most people would probably be sleeping on board this (especially if it's a night time service) so the effect wouldn't have as much of an impact. At least it's better than a 22x!

As for my experience - the "new" Class 360s in use on the MML are OK, not as good as the older HSTs, but certainly better than the Meridians. 22x's are pretty dire with their (original) metallic windows.
 

MCR247

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Are you going to replace them for us ?.
No one else is bothered !.
In fairness, whilst it may seem like a non-issue, I was on a XC 220 where one affected window by the table seat in coach A had a fairly significant growth of mould on the rubber window surround right where your arm would go. Luckily the service wasn’t busy at that point so I chose a different seat.
 

spotify95

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I've just sent a message to EMR earlier today, reporting that on unit 222011, there was a blown window next to Seats C35 and C36.
By blown, I mean that there was condensation inside and a couple of centimeters of water between the two panes.
Issues like this have got to be resolved as it makes the trains look older and less appealing.
 

LowLevel

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I've just sent a message to EMR earlier today, reporting that on unit 222011, there was a blown window next to Seats C35 and C36.
By blown, I mean that there was condensation inside and a couple of centimeters of water between the two panes.
Issues like this have got to be resolved as it makes the trains look older and less appealing.
There are loads running around like it and some 15x too. Don't think I've ever seen a window replaced quickly due to blown seals, unfortunately, because it looks awful. I've known vehicles run around for literally years with blown window seals.
 

Carlisle

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There are loads running around like it
Yes, even refurbished MK1 based units suffered from this problem back in the 1980s / 90s .
I’ve heard window replacement on some modern trains nowadays has to be done by specialist contractors.
 
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