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Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates

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Nicholas Lewis

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No such figures have ever been revealed in front of the UK Transport Select Committee or Public Accounts Committee? I don't have examples but I find it unlikely and how have TfW been forced? The Welsh PAC sent them a letter and James Price replied and happened to be more open then some DfT mandarins might be.
You wont find any with that detail even the NAO only get to use publicly disclosed information. Try using an FOI and they will hide behind the train operator holding the information and not being a public body despite them being entirely bankrolled by the public purse now.
The letter wasn't really honest about the performance of the 230s either.
The letter was dated 18th May mind you but a foolish comment given what had gone before with them - clearly not schooled like the DfT are
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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The liquidated damages for the initial quality issues on the 230s of £1.5 million is about 10% of the purchase price, which hardly seems enough.
What is baffling is that TfW ever signed the trains off as accepted in 2020/21.
I guess the unusual visibility of procurement costs is because Vivarail has collapsed so there is no commercial interest any more for the supplier.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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The liquidated damages for the initial quality issues on the 230s of £1.5 million is about 10% of the purchase price, which hardly seems enough.
What is baffling is that TfW ever signed the trains off as accepted in 2020/21.
Indeed given the trains were unviable for passenger use when they purchased them their really ought to be more push back over what criteria was used to sign them off and who did that? Did they employ an external body i wonder? If they did ought to pursue a claim off them.
 

meld3

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Indeed given the trains were unviable for passenger use when they purchased them their really ought to be more push back over what criteria was used to sign them off and who did that? Did they employ an external body i wonder? If they did ought to pursue a claim off them.
Welcome to nationalisation / micro-management, where civil servants make commercial decisions with zero knowledge of the subject, and keep getting moved to other departments before the crap hits the fan.
 

Invincible

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Wasn't it private companies Keolis Amey brought the units from Vivarail, marketed as a viable cost alternative hybrid power to leased new trains?
The 230s were getting problems sorted, then pollen caused overheating.

Ideally a nationalised rail system should be run by experienced rail professionals working to professional auditors, free from politics or banks.
The leasing system has pros and cons, the worse case is when suitable trains have ended up with high lease costs.
 

TDK

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Tis a shame they cant have a short 4km (Shotton elev 6m → Hawarden → Buckley elev 108m) section of third rail on the Wrexham bound side only, to take the weight off the batteries, or, budget 750vdc tram style overheads if a 3rd rail easement is not given - modify a couple of trains for it. If I recall, there's only one foot crossing at Ash View - the duplicate crossing at Buckley can go with the station crossing being the only one - electrification could finish just before there.
New build 750v conductor rail installation isn't permitted anywhere in the country, you'll need a feed from the national grid, transformer's and TP huts at 1.5 mile intervals, complete re fencing just to extend the range of a traction unit? It will never happen even if it was permitted.
 

Bob Price

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To be fair I believe the rules on third rail installs has changed, but you are right about the cost and infrastructure. The better alternative would be fast charge at Wrexham to run batteries. And ironically that will depend on a trail using ex Vivarail technology.
 

zwk500

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To be fair I believe the rules on third rail installs has changed, but you are right about the cost and infrastructure. The better alternative would be fast charge at Wrexham to run batteries. And ironically that will depend on a trail using ex Vivarail technology.
Not changed as such, there was always a 'permitted if safe enough' attitude. There has recently been a slightly clearer safety analysis published to assist people making the case, but the bar is still very high AIUI
 

CaergwrleKen

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230008 in trouble again this afternoon by the looks of it already done a trip missing stops out now it’s almost an hour late.

Another double failure today as it appears 009 has failed to do its last trip to Wrexham at 1845 and gone back to Birkenhead depot instead.
 
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Skie

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To be fair I believe the rules on third rail installs has changed, but you are right about the cost and infrastructure. The better alternative would be fast charge at Wrexham to run batteries. And ironically that will depend on a trail using ex Vivarail technology.
Not needed for 777s, they can take on a decent charge without needing any fancy gubbins so standard 3rd rail kit can be used. As long as the turnaround is 5 minutes it’s more than enough to get them back to Bidston. Or a 60 second longer dwell at one or two intermediate stations.
 

Purple Train

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Not needed for 777s, they can take on a decent charge without needing any fancy gubbins so standard 3rd rail kit can be used. As long as the turnaround is 5 minutes it’s more than enough to get them back to Bidston. Or a 60 second longer dwell at one or two intermediate stations.
Neither of which are possible under the current excuse for a timetable.
 

Wyrleybart

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The liquidated damages for the initial quality issues on the 230s of £1.5 million is about 10% of the purchase price, which hardly seems enough.
What is baffling is that TfW ever signed the trains off as accepted in 2020/21.
I guess the unusual visibility of procurement costs is because Vivarail has collapsed so there is no commercial interest any more for the supplier.
That is an interesting timestamp actually. 230006 was still being test run in July 2020 - a youtube video has it in multi with 230007 on 17th July 2020 at Stourbridge Jn. So we know that the first run of a TfW 230 on it's own route was after July 2020, and we also know TfW never ran a real time test train formed of a Vivarail 230 over the routes 230006-010 were intended for.

So this suggests the Senedd approved the acquisition and operation of the "innovative" Vivarail electrobattery trains without a single mile of actual route being trialled (as opposed to simulated on a computer).

That is a pretty sad indictment of the TfW purchase in my view.
 
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L401CJF

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That is an interesting timestamp actually. 230006 was still being test run in July 2020 - a youtube video has it in multi with 230007 on 17th July 2020 at Stourbridge Jn. So we know that the first run of a TfW 230 on it's own route was after July 2020, and we also know TfW never ran a real time test train formed of a Vivarail 230 over the routes 230006-010 were inrtended for.

So this suggests the Senedd approved the acquisition and operation of the "innovative" Vivarail electrobattery trains without a single mile of actually route being trialled (as opposed to simulated on a computer).

That is a pretty sad indictment of the TfW purchase in my view.
Funnily enough, 230006 still hasn't worked a train in service, and won't for a good while.
 

Invincible

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Funnily enough, 230006 still hasn't worked a train in service, and won't for a good while.
Can it use spares (with help from GWR?) from the ex London Midlands trains (moving from Bletchley to Reading in a couple of weeks) to get working again?
 
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Wyrleybart

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Can it use spares (with help from GWR?) from the ex London Midlands trains (moving from Bletchley to Reading in a couple of weeks) to get working again?
Probably depends on what parts are needed. If it is doors etc maybe. But dn't forget the drive train under the TfW unit is different to the WMR diesel electrics.
 

DLAYKEGER

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It appears the 230s are losing 10 mins per return journey so now over 20+mins late getting to Wrexham. Anybody know why unit swap over is later in afternoon when earlier in month it was around midday if poolen is the issue
 

tomuk

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Probably depends on what parts are needed. If it is doors etc maybe. But dn't forget the drive train under the TfW unit is different to the WMR diesel electrics.
TfW should start a charity drive on Ford Rangers so people can donate their pickups to keep the 230s going.
 

tomuk

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What a load of BS. They have a five point plan that sounds very much like what they should be doing anyway to provide the basic service anyone expects.
We're going to have a look round and talk to the fitters to try and understand exactly what we need to do
What a genius idea there from James Price. Did the really expensive consultants from Ricardo also have any ideas when you employed them to fix the 230s?
 

DLAYKEGER

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I would hate to see a serious issue, if we are only seeing teething pronlems. That sort of statement was similar to the mesage to the public accounts comittee. They seem to downplay issues all the time

Also they fail to say its was safety issues on other lines, and they effectively pushed borderlands passengers under a bus to serve others lines with trains
 

tomuk

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I would hate to see a serious issue, if we are only seeing teething pronlems. That sort of statement was similar to the mesage to the public accounts comittee. They seem to downplay issues all the time

Also they fail to say its was safety issues on other lines, and they effectively pushed borderlands passengers under a bus to serve others lines with trains
Yes safety issues for which TfW received an enforcement notice from ORR for.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Looks like we have to rely on Lee Waters and James Price to deliver for TfW.
I can't say I'm enthusiastic.
They have the ability to paint black as white, just like DfT.
 

CaergwrleKen

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The positive talk must be having an effect with no cancellations today and 230007 running a mere 40 minutes late by the time it had finished it’s half day diagram
 

DLAYKEGER

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Great to see the 5 point plan working so well. Compared to last Sunday, today we see less than 50% of number services seen last week today
 

Zontar

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All the moaning aside .... is it likely that network rail refuse to have them on the network if they keep up like this?
 

DLAYKEGER

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All the moaning aside .... is it likely that network rail refuse to have them on the network if they keep up like this?

Sorry its not moaning, TFW make Arriva Trains Wales look proficient. TfW have managed to change the borderlands branding to Miseryrail in a 6 month period, a nickname well known in the Liverpool City Region when management did not have a clue. However the situation is much worse than when Merseyrail was known as miseryrail as you could possibly commute
 
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Zontar

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Sorry its not moaning, TFW make Arriva Trains Wales look proficient. TfW have managed to change the borderlands branding to Miseryrail in a 6 month period, a nickname well known in the Liverpool City Region when management did not have a clue. However the situation is much worse than when Merseyrail was known as miseryrail as you could possibly commute
Haha I was referring to my own moaning!! transport for fails, miseryrail......all sound apt

Moderator note: this thread is for updates only; for any discussion regarding potential replacement units, terminating short at Wrexham Central or any other suggestions, please use the following thread:

 
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