Class 315 preservation society

[43096]

It's a PEP unit, though.

It's still only 4-car, 75mph and has no toilets. Can't see tour operators falling over themselves to use it on even an occasional basis.

 

[DanNCL]

It's not a parallel situation, though. The Cl306 was kept operational because it was kept under cover at Ilford Car Sheds and maintained on a voluntary basis by the staff there until such time as that situation became untenable, at which point it was transferred to Chappel & Wakes Colne where it was stored outside. When I caught up with the unit at Shildon at the beginning of last year it had deteriorated badly, was missing parts and one of the cars was wrapped in tarps because it was no longer weather-tight.

This will be the fate of 820 also unless something more long-term is sorted quickly. It's great to have plans and ideas, but it's got to be backed up with money otherwise it's just deferring the unit's eventual demise.

The situation with the 315 isn’t identical to that of the 306 but definitely has some parallels.

With regards to differences the situation with the 315 will in some ways be better than it was with the 306. Unlike the 306 at Chappell & Wakes Colne, in time the 315 should be able to be kept “warm” at the Llanelli & Mynydd Mawr railway - they’re currently working on a solution to allow the batteries on LTTG’s 483s to be charged with the assistance of one of the railway’s Pacers, and there’s nothing to say that couldn’t then also be used to keep a 315‘s batteries charged. There is also the bonus on the 315 that it’s aluminium not steel, so corrosion won’t be anywhere near as much of an issue as it is on the 306, two vehicles of which are still in a rather sorry state outside in Shildon, although restoration on the third vehicle inside the building has finally began.

I can equally see the obsession of having a full unit in the aim of keeping it mainline registered Being the groups ultimate demise. If this 6K cost of route clearance is going to be an issue for any potential tours in the future then the unit won't be cost effective to run a single tour anywhere other than the busy commuter lines they have already run. Thats aswell as the costs of some serious, regular maintenence.

315s are already route cleared for a surprising number of locations. Given the identical dimensions 315s can go anywhere a 313, 314, 507 or 508 has gone - that encompasses all of the WCML, the ECML at least as far north as Newcastle, and the majority of both the London AC and Glasgow suburban networks. There isn’t a shortage of routes they’re already cleared on to use - granted they’d have to pay for route clearance to visit, say, Ilkley, but there’s enough of the network already cleared for 315s that they’d be mad to even consider it.

Network Rail claim it takes 28 days to carry out route clearance - I know of at least one occasion where steam traction has been route cleared in a much shorter period of time, and I’m pretty sure it didn’t take as long as 28 days to sort out route clearance to take the 4 91s to Newport earlier in the year either.

I also have to question the £6k figure they quote to route clear the 315 west of Newport - I’m believe the two Ex-508 vehicles that are now used as barrier wagons have gone west of Newport, so they already know the 315 won’t have any issues there, and it shouldn’t cost £6k to confirm it.

I don't think there would be a great difficulty in being able to run an EMU on the UK network, the question is whether you can fill it enough times each year to make it pay. Rattling around in an old EMU for kicks seems to me to be a tiny niche in an already niche market.

It’s a niche but one that’s currently unfulfilled and there likely is a gap in the market for it. I doubt many people expected LSL to be able to fill a rake of Mark 3s hauled by a 90 but they’ve managed to do it.

 

[O L Leigh]

The situation with the 315 isn’t identical to that of the 306 but definitely has some parallels.

With regards to differences the situation with the 315 will in some ways be better than it was with the 306. Unlike the 306 at Chappell & Wakes Colne, in time the 315 should be able to be kept “warm” at the Llanelli & Mynydd Mawr railway - they’re currently working on a solution to allow the batteries on LTTG’s 483s to be charged with the assistance of one of the railway’s Pacers, and there’s nothing to say that couldn’t then also be used to keep a 315‘s batteries charged. There is also the bonus on the 315 that it’s aluminium not steel, so corrosion won’t be anywhere near as much of an issue as it is on the 306, two vehicles of which are still in a rather sorry state outside in Shildon, although restoration on the third vehicle inside the building has finally began.

You've used the word "should" rather more than I'm comfortable with. You've also missed the parallel that I was trying to draw.

While it remained at Ilford, the Cl306 had a very cossetted existence. It was kept under cover and was tended by people who knew the unit inside and out; some of whom will have worked on them when they were still operational. I've no doubt that they still had access to a supply of "new old stock" parts still sitting on the shelves. As a result it only ever needed light maintenance on an "as and when" basis.

Once you start storing things they deteriorate. Keeping a unit in warm storage is going to require more than just battery charging, as the batteries on a Cl315 only operate the auxiliaries, the control circuits and the auxiliary compressor for charging the pan air system. Everything else will be dead for as long as the unit remains off the juice. As for corrosion not being a problem, I presume that you were not familiar with their pre-refurbishment condition. These units are not 100% aluminium and suffered from bi-metallic corrosion as well as issues with water ingress. I well remember working former FGE units that looked like doilies, with rusty seams showing through the paintwork.

The plan as it stands is fine in the very short term, but if the group seriously wants to keep a unit in fit condition for mainline work they need to be planning and fundraising for more than just getting the unit the Llanelli. They'll need spares and expertise and, ideally, access to the OLE in order to keep all the other systems ticking over. Without this the risk is that the unit will just be sat around getting worse, just as the Cl306 did at Chappel & Wakes Colne (which is the parallel I was drawing before), and bringing it back from that point will be eye-watering.

Don't get me wrong, having worked these units I'd love to see one preserved. But lets be realistic. Keeping one in mainline condition is going to be a seriously expensive business. If they're struggling to raise the quoted £6000 for route clearance they're really going to struggle to afford the bills to take it out for a spin. I mean, has the group even had a chat with Nitwit Rail to ask about the conditions under which access to the network might be permitted and the costs associated with that? I'd rather they be honest and say that it's a jumble sale too far and keep a unit in good cosmetic order than trying to shoot for the moon and allowing the unit to dissolve in the Welsh rain through lack of care.

 

[43096]

It’s a niche but one that’s currently unfulfilled and there likely is a gap in the market for it. I doubt many people expected LSL to be able to fill a rake of Mark 3s hauled by a 90 but they’ve managed to do it.

There’s a huge difference in quality between a set of first class Mark 3s and an inner suburban EMU which offers no catering or toilets. I think you’re naïve if you think there is even a niche market for a 315. You might fill one train for novelty value, but you won’t get close to filling it otherwise.

 

[A0wen]

315s are already route cleared for a surprising number of locations. Given the identical dimensions 315s can go anywhere a 313, 314, 507 or 508 has gone - that encompasses all of the WCML, the ECML at least as far north as Newcastle, and the majority of both the London AC and Glasgow suburban networks. There isn’t a shortage of routes they’re already cleared on to use - granted they’d have to pay for route clearance to visit, say, Ilkley, but there’s enough of the network already cleared for 315s that they’d be mad to even consider it.

Network Rail claim it takes 28 days to carry out route clearance - I know of at least one occasion where steam traction has been route cleared in a much shorter period of time, and I’m pretty sure it didn’t take as long as 28 days to sort out route clearance to take the 4 91s to Newport earlier in the year either.

Not sure you're right about clearance, particularly on the ECML - I'm sure somebody posted on here the 313s weren't cleared north of Royston for example.

 

[alholmes]

Not sure you're right about clearance, particularly on the ECML - I'm sure somebody posted on here the 313s weren't cleared north of Royston for example.

I’ve pictures of a class 313 running a return trip between Royston and Cambridge on the gala day held to mark the first electric trains between those points -1988, I think.

I’m not aware of any runs far up the ECML, apart from delivery from York works - even then, it was before construction of the Selby diversion.

 

[JonathanH]

Not sure you're right about clearance, particularly on the ECML - I'm sure somebody posted on here the 313s weren't cleared north of Royston for example.

Wasn't that more to do with shoe clearance though?

 

[bramling]

Not sure you're right about clearance, particularly on the ECML - I'm sure somebody posted on here the 313s weren't cleared north of Royston for example.

313s have certainly been to Cambridge in service; one worked there on the day of the Hatfield derailment, and I can personally vouch for this as I was on it. Likewise 313s have been hauled from Hornsey to Booths, Rotherham via the ECML.

 

[Sm5]

There’s a huge difference in quality between a set of first class Mark 3s and an inner suburban EMU which offers no catering or toilets. I think you’re naïve if you think there is even a niche market for a 315. You might fill one train for novelty value, but you won’t get close to filling it otherwise.

Use to say the exact same about class 25’s and mk 1’s.

time Has a way of changing peoples interests, especially when most of that history has gone.

if it were possible, do you reckon if you proposed a 31+ mk1 suburbans on a railtour from Moorgate, there would be no takers ?

if the 2bil came back tomorrow it’d fill seats for weeks, back in the 1980’s everyone shunned it If it were a choice between it and a kettle.

if you dont save it, you dont have a choice… no one will ever get 100mph and catering on 3rd rail mk3’s ever again…I just have memories to enjoy.

i’m starting to appreciate 455’s.. they will be gone before you know it… when it comes to complexity PEPs are preservations last chance at EMU mainline action.... 377s,455’s are much more complex beasts in the future.

 

[bramling]

Use to say the exact same about class 25’s and mk 1’s.

time Has a way of changing peoples interests, especially when most of that history has gone.

if it were possible, do you reckon if you proposed a 31+ mk1 suburbans on a railtour from Moorgate, there would be no takers ?

if the 2bil came back tomorrow it’d fill seats for weeks, back in the 1980’s everyone shunned it If it were a choice between it and a kettle.

if you dont save it, you dont have a choice… no one will ever get 100mph and catering on 3rd rail mk3’s ever again…I just have memories to enjoy.

i’m starting to appreciate 455’s.. they will be gone before you know it… when it comes to complexity PEPs are preservations last chance at EMU mainline action.... 377s,455’s are much more complex beasts in the future.

I'm inclined to agree that this is certainly worth a shot. Once they're gone they're gone. Eversholt don't appear to have shown themselves as particularly enthusiast friendly in this affair.

 

[43096]

Use to say the exact same about class 25’s and mk 1’s.

time Has a way of changing peoples interests, especially when most of that history has gone.

if it were possible, do you reckon if you proposed a 31+ mk1 suburbans on a railtour from Moorgate, there would be no takers ?

if the 2bil came back tomorrow it’d fill seats for weeks, back in the 1980’s everyone shunned it If it were a choice between it and a kettle.

if you dont save it, you dont have a choice… no one will ever get 100mph and catering on 3rd rail mk3’s ever again…I just have memories to enjoy.

i’m starting to appreciate 455’s.. they will be gone before you know it… when it comes to complexity PEPs are preservations last chance at EMU mainline action.... 377s,455’s are much more complex beasts in the future.

If you reckon a 315 has a long term future as a railtour unit, fine. The history of EMU preservation suggests a 315 will do well to survive, let alone run on the main line.

Eversholt don't appear to have shown themselves as particularly enthusiast friendly in this affair.

How do you work that out? Eversholt have made a unit available to the 315 Pres Society; it's hardly Eversholt's fault if a) said group don't have the accommodation and/or funds to shift it and b) Ilford don't have space to keep it for any length of time.

I suppose it is easier to bash the ROSCO than accept that actually the buyer hasn't got everything in place to complete the transaction.

 

[DanNCL]

There’s a huge difference in quality between a set of first class Mark 3s and an inner suburban EMU which offers no catering or toilets. I think you’re naïve if you think there is even a niche market for a 315. You might fill one train for novelty value, but you won’t get close to filling it otherwise.

It's a different niche from the Mark 3s granted, but certainly comparable - to many enthusiasts a 90 isn't considered that appealling, certainly not when there's tours with 37s and the like available, but LSL have still managed to sell it out a few times a year. Nothing to say a 315 working local tours couldn't be sold out a few times a year too - I note the BLS have run two sold out tours on the Tyne & Wear Metro using regular Metro units, if a pair of Metro units can be sold out on a tour of their normal stomping ground I'm sure a 315 could too.

Not sure you're right about clearance, particularly on the ECML - I'm sure somebody posted on here the 313s weren't cleared north of Royston for example.

I’m not aware of any runs far up the ECML, apart from delivery from York works - even then, it was before construction of the Selby diversion.

I think you're correct about no runs north of York of PEP stock, unless the 314s were delivered to Shields Road that way. The sectional appendix however lists them as cleared at least as far as Newcastle, even inlcuding platform restrictions for them there.

Use to say the exact same about class 25’s and mk 1’s.

time Has a way of changing peoples interests, especially when most of that history has gone.

if it were possible, do you reckon if you proposed a 31+ mk1 suburbans on a railtour from Moorgate, there would be no takers ?

if the 2bil came back tomorrow it’d fill seats for weeks, back in the 1980’s everyone shunned it If it were a choice between it and a kettle.

if you dont save it, you dont have a choice… no one will ever get 100mph and catering on 3rd rail mk3’s ever again…I just have memories to enjoy.

i’m starting to appreciate 455’s.. they will be gone before you know it… when it comes to complexity PEPs are preservations last chance at EMU mainline action.... 377s,455’s are much more complex beasts in the future.

Quite. The thought of anyone chosing to take a pacer on a preserved line even just a few years ago seemed mad, but now here we are in 2021 with several having survived into preservation and them turning out not to be anywhere near as unpopular as many predicted.

I know I'd be queuing up for a ride on the 2bil if it came back to the mainline, same with most other withdrawn mainline classes to be fair. For us younger folk we never got to ride on them (the closest I got was a ride on a Lymington 3cig when I was 7 or 8, many enthusiasts of my generation won't even have had that) so the experience is as novel as that of riding on anything steam hauled is for a lot of people. As younger generations grow up, more recently withdrawn stock will become more popular.

I'm inclined to agree that this is certainly worth a shot. Once they're gone they're gone. Eversholt don't appear to have shown themselves as particularly enthusiast friendly in this affair.

Eversholt don't appear to be particularly enthusiast friendly at all. They've taken an anti-enthusiast approach with the disposal of the withdrawn 91+Mark 4 sets too.

 

[bramling]

It's a different niche from the Mark 3s granted, but certainly comparable - to many enthusiasts a 90 isn't considered that appealling, certainly not when there's tours with 37s and the like available, but LSL have still managed to sell it out a few times a year. Nothing to say a 315 working local tours couldn't be sold out a few times a year too - I note the BLS have run two sold out tours on the Tyne & Wear Metro using regular Metro units, if a pair of Metro units can be sold out on a tour of their normal stomping ground I'm sure a 315 could too.



I think you're correct about no runs north of York of PEP stock, unless the 314s were delivered to Shields Road that way. The sectional appendix however lists them as cleared at least as far as Newcastle, even inlcuding platform restrictions for them there.


Quite. The thought of anyone chosing to take a pacer on a preserved line even just a few years ago seemed mad, but now here we are in 2021 with several having survived into preservation and them turning out not to be anywhere near as unpopular as many predicted.

I know I'd be queuing up for a ride on the 2bil if it came back to the mainline, same with most other withdrawn mainline classes to be fair. For us younger folk we never got to ride on them (the closest I got was a ride on a Lymington 3cig when I was 7 or 8, many enthusiasts of my generation won't even have had that) so the experience is as novel as that of riding on anything steam hauled is for a lot of people. As younger generations grow up, more recently withdrawn stock will become more popular.


Eversholt don't appear to be particularly enthusiast friendly at all. They've taken an anti-enthusiast approach with the disposal of the withdrawn 91+Mark 4 sets too.

Indeed the Eversholt attitude seems to be to simply bin anything which isn’t on lease. Which is of course in their interest, as more stock on offer drives down leasing costs, which is how they make their money.

 

[O L Leigh]

I note the BLS have run two sold out tours on the Tyne & Wear Metro using regular Metro units, if a pair of Metro units can be sold out on a tour of their normal stomping ground I'm sure a 315 could too.

You may already be aware, but the BLS are a very particular crowd with a very niche interest. Traction really doesn't do it for them. But if the T&W Metrocars were going places they don't usually go with passengers onboard then you can guarantee a sell-out.

 

[JonathanH]

A class 315 tour of the Welsh Valley Lines would be interesting after their electrification also, particularly given the plans at one point for them to have their twilight years there.

 

[Sm5]

Indeed the Eversholt attitude seems to be to simply bin anything which isn’t on lease. Which is of course in their interest, as more stock on offer drives down leasing costs, which is how they make their money.

Might not be a good long term strategy, as it relies on the flow of money to fund new stock, by all accounts, that purse might be tightly closed for a while.

 

[43096]

Indeed the Eversholt attitude seems to be to simply bin anything which isn’t on lease. Which is of course in their interest, as more stock on offer drives down leasing costs, which is how they make their money.

If they have no foreseeable lease for stock coming off lease - Class 315s being a good example - why would they keep it? It costs to store vehicles - why pay storage costs if you don't need to. It's no different from the way Porterbrook dealt with the Southern and SWT 4DING units when they were replaced - don't mess around and send straight to the breaker.

As for their attitude towards enthusiasts: given the number of time wasters who make enquiries for stuff from the ROSCOs I can well understand why they might not bother. Frankly the time wasters make it more difficult for anyone who is serious, and to the overall detriment of preservation.

 

[bramling]

If they have no foreseeable lease for stock coming off lease - Class 315s being a good example - why would they keep it? It costs to store vehicles - why pay storage costs if you don't need to. It's no different from the way Porterbrook dealt with the Southern and SWT 4DING units when they were replaced - don't mess around and send straight to the breaker.

As for their attitude towards enthusiasts: given the number of time wasters who make enquiries for stuff from the ROSCOs I can well understand why they might not bother. Frankly the time wasters make it more difficult for anyone who is serious, and to the overall detriment of preservation.

I get all that, however the 315 preservation attempt is clearly a bit more than a time waste, it is quite evident a fair amount of effort has gone in. It does seem to be a case of “the units gets withdrawn this week, get it off our hands or we send it for scrap”.

 

[JonathanH]

I get all that, however the 315 preservation attempt is clearly a bit more than a time waste, it is quite evident a fair amount of effort has gone in. It does seem to be a case of “the units gets withdrawn this week, get it off our hands or we send it for scrap”.

...although it does seem that reports suggest that 315820 actually stayed at Ilford today instead of going to Newport.

 

[O L Leigh]

But this should be a salutary message for the Cl315 crowd. They can't afford to shilly-shally around and expect that Eversholt are prepared to wait and work to their timescale. They have a deadline and need to get everything sorted out before the last of the units stops short at Newport.

 

[StephenHunter]

...although it does seem that reports suggest that 315820 actually stayed at Ilford today instead of going to Newport.

They don't have the money to take it at the moment unless someone gives them a big loan.

 

[JonathanH]

They don't have the money to take it at the moment unless someone gives them a big loan.

How big?

 

[StephenHunter]

60 grand for a road haulage.

 

[43096]

I get all that, however the 315 preservation attempt is clearly a bit more than a time waste, it is quite evident a fair amount of effort has gone in. It does seem to be a case of “the units gets withdrawn this week, get it off our hands or we send it for scrap”.

We don't know how much notice they had to collect it. But they knew they had to get a home sorted and a way to get there. As their Facebook page is claiming they now need £60k, they are clearly some way from being able to take one and the tone is increasingly desperate on there. They've also been been blinded by focusing on 315820 for some obscure reason. Take what you can get when you can get it and are in a position to do something with it.

But this should be a salutary message for the Cl315 crowd. They can't afford to shilly-shally around and expect that Eversholt are prepared to wait and work to their timescale. They have a deadline and need to get everything sorted out before the last of the units stops short at Newport.

That's an absolutely spot-on assessment.

 

[JonathanH]

60 grand for a road haulage.

That is some distress purchase. Not the best use of £60k in the overall context of trying to raise funds to save a unit for the long term (although I recognise it is the only way to save 315820).

 

[O L Leigh]

Bye bye, 820.

I get all that, however the 315 preservation attempt is clearly a bit more than a time waste, it is quite evident a fair amount of effort has gone in. It does seem to be a case of “the units gets withdrawn this week, get it off our hands or we send it for scrap”.

Perhaps so. But how many more weeks had passed before getting to "this week"? How much longer is it going to take for them to take delivery of a unit?

 

[StephenHunter]

You may already be aware, but the BLS are a very particular crowd with a very niche interest. Traction really doesn't do it for them. But if the T&W Metrocars were going places they don't usually go with passengers onboard then you can guarantee a sell-out.

There is quite possibly a big market for shorter length railtours of a couple of hours each way. I found the long hours and early starts a massive disincentive to pay the costs associated with steam haulage.

 

[fgwrich]

Bye bye, 820.



Perhaps so. But how many more weeks had passed before getting to "this week"? How much longer is it going to take for them to take delivery of a unit?

Not yet, todays move saw 57310 taking 315819 only. 820 has, much to the delight of some, had a last minute reprieve.

 

[Sm5]

£60k for road haulage ? Thats a bit steep isnt it for just 4 coaches ?

 

[JonathanH]

£60k for road haulage ? Thats a bit steep isnt it for just 4 coaches ?

No, not when there are four cars that all need to be moved together involving a substantial operation to get them all loaded at Ilford and unloaded at the other end, and at short notice.