Class 321 Withdrawal updates

TT-ONR-NRN

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When are the Class 321s expected to be withdrawn?

I know the demonstrator and one other Class 321/4 have both been withdrawn and that one is being converted to Hydrogen use.

Personally I would expect the non-PRM and somewhat random fleet of 321/4s to go first. Around half of the 321/3s are PRM Renatus units and the other half have dispension until May 2021.

From a selfish point of view, I hope the /3 are around for a bit longer because I have eight more to go on and I want to clear the whole subclass :lol:

I’d be interested to know anyway. Presumably, what with the 360s in rapid decline, the 321s won’t start leaving until New Year.
 
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D365

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Presumably, what with the 360s in rapid decline, the 321s won’t start leaving until New Year.
I'd imagine so, seeing as the 321/9 and 322 fleet was bought in to free up the 360s.
 

Energy

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I would imagine the 321s being some of the last to leave, 360s are priority as they are needed at EMR, 317s are a bit older than 321s and they have had to take on a few ex LO ones, 379s could be the last to go due to being the most modern but they have an expensive lease.
 

CBlue

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I would imagine the 321s being some of the last to leave, 360s are priority as they are needed at EMR, 317s are a bit older than 321s and they have had to take on a few ex LO ones, 379s could be the last to go due to being the most modern but they have an expensive lease.
Entirely possible that the 317's and 379's outlast the 321s with Greater Anglia, as the West Anglia main line is due to be last in line for conversion to 720s. 321s also don't operate on West Anglia routes.
 

Energy

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Entirely possible that the 317's and 379's outlast the 321s with Greater Anglia, as the West Anglia main line is due to be last in line for conversion to 720s. 321s also don't operate on West Anglia routes.
Good point.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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A very kind forum member who was checking TOPS to find my last two required Class 321/3s, told me 307 and 310 have been in Ilford depot for a number of weeks now, unallocated. This is worrying for me :lol: Have they been withdrawn already?

You wouldn’t believe the effort I’ve put in since Lockdown 2 ended to clear the sixty-six strong subclass :lol: so I really hope not
 

Wolvercoter

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307 and 310 have been in Ilford depot for a number of weeks now, unallocated.

I'm after 307 as my last 321 for photo so hoping it comes back out too, for both our sakes. That said, I won't be coming to London anytime soon due to Covid. But if I hear anything, I'll let you know.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Surely they wouldn’t turf out two Renatus units first when there’s so many non PRM left (331-366 and all of the /4s!)
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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What is non-compliant about them? 321s are fairly close without major work.
Apart from the three ex-Northern units and the thirty Renatus units, the 321s do not have accessible toilets, a compliant hustle alarm, and no door open alarm at all.
 

DavidB

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Fairly is not the same as fully.

I know it's not - that's why I asked in what way they are non-compliant.

The more minor it is, the more likely that further dispensations will be granted.
 

JonathanH

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What is non-compliant about them? 321s are fairly close without major work.
321331-321366, 321402/5-10/19/21-36/38-47 don't have PRM toilets in the first instance. This appears to be the full list of non-compliant features.

4.2.2.2.2.1 (para 1) Priority seating numbers
4.2.2.2.2.1 (para 6) Priority seating dimensions
4.2.2.4.1 (para 4) Arrangement of door open and close buttons
4.2.2.4.2.1 (para 1) Door obstacle detection
4.2.2.4.2.1 (para 7) Audible door enabled tone duration
4.2.2.4.2.2 (para 1) Visual door closure indicator – illumination cessation on closure
4.2.2.4.2.1 final para Height of door controls
4.2.2.4.3.1 and 4.2.2.7 Clearway to wheelchair space
4.2.2.4.3.1 and 4.2.2.4.3.2 Height of interior door controls
4.2.2.3 (para 9) Tip up seating in wheelchair space
4.2.2.3 (para 9) Width of wheelchair tipping screen
4.2.2.3 (para 11) Wheelchair space companion seat
4.2.2.3 Call for aid in wheelchair space
4.2.2.5 Vehicle access step illumination
4.2.2.6.3.1 Universal Accessible Toilet
4.2.2.6.3.2 Baby changing facilities
4.2.2.6.2 (para 2) Width of standard toilet door
4.2.2.6.2 (para 6) Colour contrast on standard toilet fixtures
4.2.2.6.2 (para 8) Fixed vertical and/or horizontal handrails by the standard toilet wash basin
4.2.2.8.3 Platform facing PIS screen
4.2.2.8.3 PIS Squashed descenders
4.2.2.8.3 (para 16) Passenger Information System RASTI levels
4.2.2.10 para 1 Diameter of handrails
4.2.2.10 para 1 Clearance to handrails
4.2.2.10 para 4 Position of handrails in doorway
4.2.2.12.1 Platform step/gap


Obviously, there has been an extension of the derogation beyond the original end date of 1 December 2020.

The Renatus units only fail

4.2.2.4.2.1 (para 1) Door obstacle detecti
4.2.2.4.2.2 (para 1) Visual door closure indicator – illumination cessation on closure
4.2.2.6.2 (para 2) Width of standard toilet doorway
4.2.2.6.2 (para 8) Handrails in standard toilet
4.2.2.8.2.1 (para 1) Signage
4.2.2.8.3 9 (paras 4 & 15) Passenger Information System - timing of announcements
4.2.2.12.1 Platform step/gap

 
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Wolfie

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321331-321366, 321402/5-10/19/21-36/38-47 don't have PRM toilets in the first instance. This appears to be the full list of non-compliant features.

4.2.2.2.2.1 (para 1) Priority seating numbers
4.2.2.2.2.1 (para 6) Priority seating dimensions
4.2.2.4.1 (para 4) Arrangement of door open and close buttons
4.2.2.4.2.1 (para 1) Door obstacle detection
4.2.2.4.2.1 (para 7) Audible door enabled tone duration
4.2.2.4.2.2 (para 1) Visual door closure indicator – illumination cessation on closure
4.2.2.4.2.1 final para Height of door controls
4.2.2.4.3.1 and 4.2.2.7 Clearway to wheelchair space
4.2.2.4.3.1 and 4.2.2.4.3.2 Height of interior door controls
4.2.2.3 (para 9) Tip up seating in wheelchair space
4.2.2.3 (para 9) Width of wheelchair tipping screen
4.2.2.3 (para 11) Wheelchair space companion seat
4.2.2.3 Call for aid in wheelchair space
4.2.2.5 Vehicle access step illumination
4.2.2.6.3.1 Universal Accessible Toilet
4.2.2.6.3.2 Baby changing facilities
4.2.2.6.2 (para 2) Width of standard toilet door
4.2.2.6.2 (para 6) Colour contrast on standard toilet fixtures
4.2.2.6.2 (para 8) Fixed vertical and/or horizontal handrails by the standard toilet wash basin
4.2.2.8.3 Platform facing PIS screen
4.2.2.8.3 PIS Squashed descenders
4.2.2.8.3 (para 16) Passenger Information System RASTI levels
4.2.2.10 para 1 Diameter of handrails
4.2.2.10 para 1 Clearance to handrails
4.2.2.10 para 4 Position of handrails in doorway
4.2.2.12.1 Platform step/gap


Obviously, there has been an extension of the derogation beyond the original end date of 1 December 2020.

The Renatus units only fail

4.2.2.4.2.1 (para 1) Door obstacle detecti
4.2.2.4.2.2 (para 1) Visual door closure indicator – illumination cessation on closure
4.2.2.6.2 (para 2) Width of standard toilet doorway
4.2.2.6.2 (para 8) Handrails in standard toilet
4.2.2.8.2.1 (para 1) Signage
4.2.2.8.3 9 (paras 4 & 15) Passenger Information System - timing of announcements
4.2.2.12.1 Platform step/gap

TY
 

St. Paddy

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GA 321s without PRM mods have now been given dispensation by the DFT to continue in service until 31.5.21
 

318259

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Seems a shame to withdraw them. There's plenty of life left in them, and the PRM stuff is easily fixable.

The ones ScotRail took and converted to 320/4s have accessible retention toilets and "improved" door alarms now. It's great to see they've expanded the 320 fleet and I expect we'll have them for at least another decade. The 320s are the backbone of the Glasgow suburban services and it'll be a strange day when they're replaced.
 

kemal

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Yes the Scotrail 320/4s are superb units. The scotrail 320 units are really reliable units and must have at least another decade in them. The Greater Anglia 321 units are also superb units too. I have travelled on a number of these over the years.
 

fgwrich

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Seems a shame to withdraw them. There's plenty of life left in them, and the PRM stuff is easily fixable.

The ones ScotRail took and converted to 320/4s have accessible retention toilets and "improved" door alarms now. It's great to see they've expanded the 320 fleet and I expect we'll have them for at least another decade. The 320s are the backbone of the Glasgow suburban services and it'll be a strange day when they're replaced.
Personally, I'm surprised ScotRail hasn't looked to take on the "renatus" units and replace the 318 fleet - giving them one large common fleet (and potentially "renatus" the 320s).
 

SC318250

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The Class 318/320 seem to be used as a common pool now.
Class 318 seem to be quite reliable at present. Yesterday all 21 units were in service in the morning peak. Today there were 20.
 

D365

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Seems a shame to withdraw them. There's plenty of life left in them, and the PRM stuff is easily fixable.
No obligation for any operator to use them. It’s up to Eversholt Rail to negotiate a deal.
 

Wolfie

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Yes the Scotrail 320/4s are superb units. The scotrail 320 units are really reliable units and must have at least another decade in them. The Greater Anglia 321 units are also superb units too. I have travelled on a number of these over the years.
If the 321s do get broken up at least Scotrail should have a plentiful supply of spares.
 

318259

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The 318s and 320s are very similar, and they do work interchangably on the Argyle and North Clyde lines these days. It's not uncommon to see a 6 car train formed of a 318 and a 320 coupled together

The 318s were designed for longer-distance services, mostly the Ayrshire Coast. They were 90mph units with comfortable seats and a non-accessible toilet.

The 320s were designed for short-stop commutes - they were almost exclusively used on the North Clyde Line before 2010. They were 75mph units with less-comfortable seats and no toilet until their most recent refurbishments.

Once the class 380s arrived and took over the Ayrshire Coast lines and the Airdrie-Bathgate line opened, the 334s took over the Milngavie and Helensburgh to Edinburgh routes. This leaves the 318s and 320s operating Glasgow's short-stopping suburban services, and they're pretty good at it. They'll definitely be missed when they go.

I'm not sure about the current state of the Cathcart Circle since the withdrawal of the 314s, but I know they've had trouble with some modern units on that line. The 380s are only allowed to go around the Cathcart Circle twice before they're sent onto another duty, because the constant start-stopping was causing overheating.
 

Peter0124

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I'm not sure about the current state of the Cathcart Circle since the withdrawal of the 314s, but I know they've had trouble with some modern units on that line. The 380s are only allowed to go around the Cathcart Circle twice before they're sent onto another duty, because the constant start-stopping was causing overheating.
Does it make any difference to overheating whether the 380s operate constant Glasgow-Newton shuttles? As the same 380 usually operates the via Mount Florida every hour.
 

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TT-ONR-NRN

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Does anyone know if 321307 (Renatus) and 321310 (Renatus) have been stood down? A kind forum member who searched for these units for me before lockdown (they're the only two 321s I require for haulage) told me that they'd been out of action at Ilford for a month, and I haven't heard anything on them since. A month seems a long time out of use, unless of course they're receiving major maintenance.

Surely they wouldn't withdraw two Renatus 321s with thirty odd non-PRM 321/3s and around forty non-PRM 321/4s still in service unless something was wrong with them? I would expect all of the Renatus units still to be in service by May time really, especially as the 720 introduction still hasn't really ramped up beyond two or three diagrams per day yet.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Both units in service on the 19th. seen at Ipswich.
That’s good to know, thank you.

I did remember Richard Clinnick tweeting that the first 321s will be off leased and sent to scrap by the end of the month? Is there any information as to which ones?
 

samuelmorris

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That’s good to know, thank you.

I did remember Richard Clinnick tweeting that the first 321s will be off leased and sent to scrap by the end of the month? Is there any information as to which ones?
I would probably expect some of the unmodified originals, 331-366 or 438-447, but that's a guess.
 

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