Class 345 progress

[JonathanH]

345052 reported to have been moved from Ilford to Old Oak Depot today. Nothing went the other way.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K00070/2020-06-17/detailed

7-cars continue in use on Paddington services.

EDIT - 345052 in service this evening west side on 9R04 1743 London Paddington to Reading

 

[itfcfan]

software fault affecting operation of AWS. 22x 9-car withdrawn.

Does anyone have any more information on the fault that occurred on the 9 car class 345s? What is the nature of the fault? How was it detected?

The 9 car 345s run a different software version than the 7 car 345s - I'm wondering if the fault was serious enough that a new software version will be required to correct it (this would be likely to take weeks/months) or if there's a workaround that can/will be applied instead (so they could be back working in days/weeks)?

 

[JonathanH]

Does anyone have any more information on the fault that occurred on the 9 car class 345s? What is the nature of the fault? How was it detected?

The 9 car 345s run a different software version than the 7 car 345s - I'm wondering if the fault was serious enough that a new software version will be required to correct it (this would be likely to take weeks/months) or if there's a workaround that can/will be applied instead (so they could be back working in days/weeks)?

Is there an expectation that there should be more information in the public domain? We already have been offered a reason - eg software problem affecting operation of AWS. There were also indications up thread that it was hoped to have been resolved by Monday and it is now Wednesday. However, even then, it is only six days.

From observations, it does appear that no 9-car 345s have run on the mainline railway since 345053 ran empty from Maidenhead Carriage Sidings to Old Oak Depot on Friday morning. The other 9-car 345s were progressively withdrawn between 8pm and midnight on Thursday, two running empty from Maidenhead to Old Oak Depot at around 9pm, three withdrawn at Paddington around that time with three others (including 345053) working to end of service.

From RTT (and observations on Railcam of the units), there were three services which suffered delay on Thursday:
* 345053(?) on 9T25 0748 London Paddington to Hayes & Harlington lost time at Acton Main Line then on arrival at Hayes & Harlington returned empty to Old Oak Depot - however this unit came out later in the day
* 345064 on 9R28 0813 London Paddington to Reading left Paddington ten minutes late but seems to have worked all day after that without incident
* 345055 worked 9R36 0914 London Paddington to Reading and appears to have been failed at Reading, returning empty as 5P44 to Old Oak Depot, the spare unit at Maidenhead picking up its working (9P44) into Paddington
Everything else during the day seems to have run close to time. However, 345053 ran late on its last three trips - ie 2113 from Paddington (9R32), 2222 from Reading (9P40), 2348 from Paddington (9N52).

I'd guess that, if it continues for a while it will need to be part of the update on Crossrail developments that goes to the London Assembly - it shouldn't be forgotten that there was an indication that 345 running with passengers to Heathrow should have started last week and that clearly hasn't happened.

With the return of 345052 from Ilford and reintroduction to service of 345057 there are now ten 7-car units on the west side. Maybe 345047 will be returned to service as well.

 

[rebmcr]

Is there an expectation that there should be more information in the public domain? We already have been offered a reason - eg software problem affecting operation of AWS.

It is perfectly OK to be curious, and a forum such as this is the right place. If the information is confidential then so be it. If not, then I too would enjoy learning the technical details.

That's all the justification required for asking polite questions (which can be answered or not), but quite apart from that, Class 345s are part of a publicly-funded project that is both extremely expensive and extremely delayed — it's in all of our interests to keep well-appraised of progress.

 

[JonathanH]

It is perfectly OK to be curious, and a forum such as this is the right place. If the information is confidential then so be it. If not, then I too would enjoy learning the technical details.

That's all the justification required for asking polite questions (which can be answered or not), but quite apart from that, Class 345s are part of a publicly-funded project that is both extremely expensive and extremely delayed — it's in all of our interests to keep well-appraised of progress.

Yes, that is a fair point - we are very lucky to get the information we do from insiders where possible and clearly it is of interest.

What surprises me a little is that in six days there does not appear to have been any test running of 9-car units and, given that 345057 wasn't available on Friday, it is entirely feasible that it was in the conversion process to 9 car.

It would be interesting to know how many spare cars are currently at Old Oak Depot - the extra cars from 044 were recently reported as moving from Worksop but are there others parked up?

 

[SeaKing]

I believe i just saw 027 on 9R90. stand to be corrected.

 

[JonathanH]

Just seen 027 on 9R90.

I think you will find that was 345007 - check again when it goes east on 9P98 and count the carriages

 

[SeaKing]

I think you will find that was 345007 - check again when it goes east on 9P98 and count the carriages

ok.

 

[matt_world2004]

I saw what appeared to be a in service 9 car 345 going past Acton main line when waiting there this morning at 9:15

 

[JonathanH]

I saw what appeared to be a in service 9 car 345 going past Acton main line when waiting there this morning at 9:15

I don't think any 9-cars are out yet but clearly I wasn't there. My sightings this morning were:
345052 9P16 0652 Reading to London Paddington
345015 9P18 0705 Reading to London Paddington
345044 9P20 0722 Reading to London Paddington
345017 9P22 0734 Reading to London Paddington
345049 9P24 0752 Reading to London Paddington
345022 9R18 0658 London Paddington to Reading
345007 9R20 0713 London Paddington to Reading
345057 9R22 0728 London Paddington to Reading
345051 9R24 0743 London Paddington to Reading

345022 should have been the unit passing Acton Main Line at 0915.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P62732/2020-06-18/detailed

Only three units left Old Oak Depot this morning, six ran from Maidenhead sidings. Hayes shuttles didn't run. 345007 and 345051 worked 9R52 1113 London Paddington to Reading and 9R56 1143 London Paddington to Reading, the two units which come out of Old Oak Depot mid morning.

The relief lines are still shut between Southall and Slough due to overhead wire damage.

 

[matt_world2004]

I don't think any 9-cars are out yet but clearly I wasn't there. My sightings this morning were:
345052 9P16 0652 Reading to London Paddington
345015 9P18 0705 Reading to London Paddington
345044 9P20 0722 Reading to London Paddington
345017 9P22 0734 Reading to London Paddington
345049 9P24 0752 Reading to London Paddington
345022 9R18 0658 London Paddington to Reading
345007 9R20 0713 London Paddington to Reading
345057 9R22 0728 London Paddington to Reading
345051 9R24 0743 London Paddington to Reading

345022 should have been the unit passing Acton Main Line at 0915.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P62732/2020-06-18/detailed

Only three units left Old Oak Depot this morning, six ran from Maidenhead sidings. Hayes shuttles didn't run. 345007 and 345051 worked 9R52 1113 London Paddington to Reading and 9R56 1143 London Paddington to Reading, the two units which come out of Old Oak Depot mid morning.

The relief lines are still shut between Southall and Slough due to overhead wire damage.

The reliefs were open between Slough and Southall at 9:40 ish this morning . The trains just were non stopping Southall and Hayes . I went through Hayes platform 3 when coming from Acton Main line

 

[JonathanH]

The reliefs were open between Slough and Southall at 9:40 ish this morning . The trains just were non stopping Southall and Hayes . I went through Hayes platform 3 when coming from Acton Main line

Yes, sorry, that wasn't very clear - there appears to be a problem on the up relief at Hayes & Harlington which has affected up trains all day and down trains since about 11am.

The westbound relief line shut after the passage of 9R48 1043 London Paddington to Reading having been open until then. The eastbound relief line had been closed between Stockley Junction and Southall prior to this with the block extended east to Dolphin Junction after the passage of 9P44 1022 Reading to London Paddington. At the current time there is two track railway in force between Southall and Dolphin Junction and reduced stops at the stations on this stretch.

 

[SeaKing]

ok.

Hi Jonathan, Just checked was only 7 coaches but number not clear. Many Thanks.

 

[paulravuslante]

It would be interesting to know how many spare cars are currently at Old Oak Depot - the extra cars from 044 were recently reported as moving from Worksop but are there others parked up?

I have seen four spare trailer cars on the south side of OOC. Can’t identify them unfortunately. Two are possibly on rails beside the maintainance shed and two are stored lengthwise against the rear of the shed.

 

[paulravuslante]

Managed to get some pics on my way into work this morning. All four trailers are now possibly on the first maintenance siding at OOC (or in line with it at least...)

 

[JN114]

Mid-July earliest for bringing FLUs back into service.

Crossrail supposedly were reforming an additional two units into RLUs over the course of the week just gone, although no word on which unit numbers.

RLUs don’t have ETCS enabled so there won’t be any further progress on bringing them into use on Heathrow services until the FLUs come back.

345 West Allocations as of 0715 this morning:-
9R12 0613 Paddington Reading 345007
9R16 0643 Paddington Reading 345017
9R20 0714 Paddington Reading 345015
9R24 0744 Paddington Reading 345049
9R28 0813 Paddington Reading 345044
then repeats.

 

[JonathanH]

Mid-July earliest for bringing FLUs back into service.

It does seem a bit crazy that an issue has arisen which requires trains to be out of service for five weeks happens in a fleet that was supposed to have been in full service six months ago but maybe the solution needs testing on a test track rather than the mainline railway.

Crossrail supposedly were reforming an additional two units into RLUs over the course of the week just gone, although no word on which unit numbers.

I guess that is to provide units to run the Hayes shuttles as well as a bit more resilience - nine units from ten doesn't allow much opportunity for maintenance.

There appear to be STP moves in for Monday and Tuesday for another unit to come from Ilford on Monday and then for a swap on Tuesday.

Monday
0610 Leicester L.I.P. to Ilford E.M.U.D.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R01307/2020-06-22/detailed
1259 Ilford E.M.U.D. to Old Oak Depot
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K00070/2020-06-22/detailed
1752 Old Oak Depot to Wembley H.S.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00486/2020-06-22/detailed

Tuesday
1024 Wembley H.S. to Old Oak Depot
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R05027/2020-06-23/detailed
1232 Old Oak Depot to Ilford E.M.U.D.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K04164/2020-06-23/detailed
1856 Ilford E.M.U.D. to Old Oak Depot
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K08070/2020-06-23/detailed
2305 Old Oak Depot to Leicester L.I.P.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R01689/2020-06-23/detailed

RLUs don’t have ETCS enabled so there won’t be any further progress on bringing them into use on Heathrow services until the FLUs come back.

I appreciate that a unit without ECTS can't go to Heathrow but not so obvious why a 'RLU' can run safely but a 'FLU' can't with ECTS disabled.

345 West Allocations as of 0715 this morning:-
9R12 0613 Paddington Reading 345007
9R16 0643 Paddington Reading 345017
9R20 0714 Paddington Reading 345015
9R24 0744 Paddington Reading 345049
9R28 0813 Paddington Reading 345044
then repeats.

345051 for 9R52 1113 Paddington-Reading after the usual timetabled swap.

 

[43096]

I appreciate that a unit without ECTS can't go to Heathrow but not so obvious why a 'RLU' can run safely but a 'FLU' can't with ECTS disabled.

I don't think you can just disable the ETCS - if they are like many other new designs the train protection systems are integrated so that AWS, TPWS etc works through the ETCS functionality. So if you disable ETCS, you lose all train protection systems. I would hazard a guess that the AWS to ETCS link is the issue.

 

[rd749249]

Plumstead depot testing this weekend. Movements yesterday, today and tomorrow.

 

[JonathanH]

Plumstead depot testing this weekend. Movements yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Does that just use the units outstabled at Abbey Wood station or do the units move from Old Oak Depot under possession?

 

[rebmcr]

Does that just use the units outstabled at Abbey Wood station or do the units move from Old Oak Depot under possession?

I think Old Oak has a dedicated track to the Westbourne Park portals — does that really require a possession?

 

[JN114]

I think Old Oak has a dedicated track to the Westbourne Park portals — does that really require a possession?

AFAIU he signalling transition hasn’t been signed off yet. Any moves on and off the core section have to be done in a special protection zone - kind of like a possession. While there is a non-conflicting route between Old Oak and the core section;

1) It’s not dedicated, it uses 1 section of line 6 which is normally used by all Up Relief traffic into Paddington in normal running
2) It’s still NR infrastructure, not Crossrail, and thus still uses the transition (You can’t come off OOC in CAB mode)
3) The SPZ is much larger and disruptive, you couldn’t just close the 1 line unfortunately - if memory serves its lines 4, 5 and 6 between Ladbroke Grove and Subway Junction, with all ordinary Relief Libe service trains having to use 1 signal section of the Down Relief Bi-Directionally between Old Oak East and Ladbroke Grove to access line 3. @Nippy may be more familiar with the normal limits.

I don’t know if an SPZ will excuse the FLUs their effective lack of AWS - that won’t afflict any units already on core sectio at Abbey Wood etc, but may preclude sets being brought off Old Oak into the core.

 

[JonathanH]

I think Old Oak has a dedicated track to the Westbourne Park portals — does that really require a possession?

Just to illustrate the very helpful comments from 'JN114' the live maps show how passage between Old Oak and Westbourne Park portals needs to use a short Section of line 6.
https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/d3_1#T_PADTON

Moreover, no recent movements from Old Oak Depot to the portal appear to register here possibly suggesting that they only typically happen under the 'SPZ' arrangements.
https://trackit.uppyjc.co.uk/TrackI...toRefresh=False&Estimate=False&DisplayMode=TD

I was wondering why the only movements off Old Oak Depot shown on RTT / TrackIt etc appear to be the familiar ones associated with the mainline services - this would suggest movements to the tunnel are effectively not signalled.

 

[rd749249]

345050 doing the moves tonight from Abbey Wood.

 

[Trailfinder]

I have seen several trains transit between OOC and Westbourne Park in normal running on OTT.

It's just treated as a siding.

 

[JonathanH]

I have seen several trains transit between OOC and Westbourne Park in normal running on OTT.

It's just treated as a siding.

Indeed, there are STP paths tomorrow for such moves.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...2020-06-22/0200-0159?stp=S&show=all&order=wtt

At the same time, last night, after 5Y20 went to the depot, some sort of possession appeared to be taken of lines 4-6 and platforms 7-14 at Paddington.

Also 9-car 345s appear to be 'banned' from the mainline network at the moment.

 

[paulravuslante]

At the same time, last night, after 5Y20 went to the depot, some sort of possession appeared to be taken of lines 4-6 and platforms 7-14 at Paddington.

That happens most nights. Either one side or the other of the station and lines outside is under possession most evenings.

 

[Bigbru]

I guess that is to provide units to run the Hayes shuttles as well as a bit more resilience - nine units from ten doesn't allow much opportunity for maintenance.

There appear to be STP moves in for Monday and Tuesday for another unit to come from Ilford on Monday and then for a swap on Tuesday.

Monday
0610 Leicester L.I.P. to Ilford E.M.U.D.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R01307/2020-06-22/detailed
1259 Ilford E.M.U.D. to Old Oak Depot
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K00070/2020-06-22/detailed
1752 Old Oak Depot to Wembley H.S.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00486/2020-06-22/detailed

[/QUOTE]

345006 is now in service on the West

 

[JonathanH]

I guess that is to provide units to run the Hayes shuttles as well as a bit more resilience - nine units from ten doesn't allow much opportunity for maintenance.

There appear to be STP moves in for Monday and Tuesday for another unit to come from Ilford on Monday and then for a swap on Tuesday.

Monday
0610 Leicester L.I.P. to Ilford E.M.U.D.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R01307/2020-06-22/detailed
1259 Ilford E.M.U.D. to Old Oak Depot
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K00070/2020-06-22/detailed
1752 Old Oak Depot to Wembley H.S.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00486/2020-06-22/detailed

345006 is now in service on the West

Yes, indeed - 345006 worked 5P08 0514 OLDOXRS-PAD / 9R08 0543 PAD-RDG / 9P16 0652 RDG-PAD / 9R26 0758 PAD-RDG etc and should stay out all day finishing at Maidenhead Carriage Sidings tonight.

It appears that all 11 7-car 345s were out this morning as both of the Hayes shuttles were formed of units from Old Oak Depot. Reading services in the hands of 017/006/051/057/022/007/013/015/049 this morning which presumably means 044 and 052 did the Hayes services.

 

[JonathanH]

I have seen several trains transit between OOC and Westbourne Park in normal running on OTT.

It's just treated as a siding.

Indeed, there are STP paths tomorrow for such moves.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...2020-06-22/0200-0159?stp=S&show=all&order=wtt

These STP movements don't appear to have run.

Looking at
https://trackit.uppyjc.co.uk/TrackI...&Berth=0092&AutoRefresh=False&HideEmpty=False and
https://trackit.uppyjc.co.uk/TrackI...&Berth=0099&AutoRefresh=False&HideEmpty=False, the last *signalled* movements to move units to or from the Tunnels appear to have been on 8 June.

(Scroll to the bottom of the page and the time of the last movement from berth 0094 to 0092 was 08/06/2020 21:43:26 and the last movement from berth 0099 to 0117 was at 20:59:31 the same day.)