Class 40 hauling ETH (air con) stock ? ! ?

[DB]

I remember having 58013 on a rake of mark 3s in 1989. Also a few 47/0 or 47/3s turned up that year; even had a pair of 31s! Think they didn't drag, the diesel worked Wolverhampton to Nuneaton where loco was changed for an electric.

31/4 has the standard ETS index of 66, so is fine on mk3s apart from the lack of traction power - hence pairs on longer trains.

 

[Richard Scott]

31/4 has the standard ETS index of 66, so is fine on mk3s apart from the lack of traction power - hence pairs on longer trains.

One was a 31/4, other was a 31/1. Just it was unusual having 31s on the service, only time ever had them on Nuneaton diversions, others may have experience of them.

 

[Whistler40145]

Were Mk 2 air cons used when 58s substituted on the Stansted Airport services vice DMUs

 

[superjohn]

Were Mk 2 air cons used when 58s substituted on the Stansted Airport services vice DMUs

When did that happen? I don’t recall it and it would have been huge if it happened.

 

[hexagon789]

Found this article in an online copy of Rail Enthusiast about the use of 40152 on the diverted southbound 'Royal Scot' on 2nd April 1983:

 

[Elecman]

I have memories of Class 40s sometimes being used in place of 47s on the Blackpool to Preston leg of the Euston trains back in the late 70s and early 80s. Stock would have been Mk2f air con at the time. I may even have a photo somewhere.

Agreed and I travelled most Fridays behind them in the late 70s/ early 80s

 

[Journeyman]

I've got a photo somewhere of a Cross Country train at Reading in the 90s, which had come from somewhere off the electrified network with a pair of 73s in diesel mode at the front. 73s can't provide ETH on diesel.

 

[Cowley]

I've got a photo somewhere of a Cross Country train at Reading in the 90s, which had come from somewhere off the electrified network with a pair of 73s in diesel mode at the front. 73s can't provide ETH on diesel.

I think they made it to Birmingham at least a couple times on those services. That would’ve been a long hot journey with no aircon!

 

[Journeyman]

I think they made it to Birmingham at least a couple times on those services. That would’ve been a long hot journey with no aircon!

Possibly rather a slow one as well! Class 73s were hardly quick on diesel, even with a pair of them.

 

[Cowley]

Possibly rather a slow one as well! Class 73s were hardly quick on diesel, even with a pair of them.

Yep. Like having a couple of washing machines on a spin cycle up front.

 

[hexagon789]

Possibly rather a slow one as well! Class 73s were hardly quick on diesel, even with a pair of them.

Reports seem to suggest an absolute max of 60-70 on diesel depending on load.

 

[Journeyman]

Reports seem to suggest an absolute max of 60-70 on diesel depending on load.

Plus all the time it took to reach that speed!

 

[hexagon789]

Plus all the time it took to reach that speed!

I know drivers on the GatEx used to like using the diesel over some of the complicated trackwork where the third rail was rather piecemeal to smooth out the power delivery over the points but that would be been only at about 30-45mph.

Mind you, a double wouldn't be too bad at 1,200hp gross, you'd have about 4/5 the performance of a 33 then.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Possibly rather a slow one as well! Class 73s were hardly quick on diesel, even with a pair of them.

Absolutely agree with this. Way back in 1987 had a pair take over a charter train I was onboard from Kensington Olympia to Waterloo that took us on a trip around various NSE commuter lines before eventually reaching the above mentioned terminus. Their sluggish performance on diesel made the previous class 40 feel like an 86/87 electric by comparison!

Yep. Like having a couple of washing machines on a spin cycle up front.

Coincidentally on the very day you and I first met but without realising it at the time [USER=34117]@Cowley

 

[Cowley]

Coincidentally on the very day you and I first met but without realising it at the time [USER=34117]@Cowley

Just a mere 33 years ago now!

 

[Ash Bridge]

Just a mere 33 years ago now!

Indeed!

 

[CW2]

I think they made it to Birmingham at least a couple times on those services. That would’ve been a long hot journey with no aircon!

I think there were 3 occasions when 73s set off north from Reading aiming for New Street on Cross Country services. The first two boiled over and came to a steaming halt in the Banbury / Fenny Compton area.
On Tuesday 28 Jan 1997 I returned home from Paddington to Reading as usual, and was more than a little surprised to see the 14:20 Brighton - Manchester sitting in platform 8 with 73132 + 73139 on the front, having replaced a failed 47/8 on the Southern. The train sat at Reading for some time, presumably sorting out drivers and conductors, then off we went. It being January, it was decidedly chilly - but that meant the EDs were unlikely to overheat. We were 115' late setting off, and 133' late into New Street, with both locos still running.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

To get back to class 40+aircon, 40 145 hauled Mk4 stock last Saturday on the Skipton-Appleby charter shuttles.
There was a 47 on the back, though, which may have provided ETH.

 

[Cowley]

To get back to class 40+aircon, 40 145 hauled Mk4 stock last Saturday on the Skipton-Appleby charter shuttles.
There was a 47 on the back, though, which may have provided ETH.

And power for the central door locking.

 

[43096]

To get back to class 40+aircon, 40 145 hauled Mk4 stock last Saturday on the Skipton-Appleby charter shuttles.
There was a 47 on the back, though, which may have provided ETH.

I expect it’s a typo, but it was Mark 3 stock (+ a Mark 2 brake).

 

[Cowley]

I expect it’s a typo, but it was Mark 3 stock (+ a Mark 2 brake).

Damn. I swooped in like a nerd and missed the obvious.

 

[randyrippley]

I know drivers on the GatEx used to like using the diesel over some of the complicated trackwork where the third rail was rather piecemeal to smooth out the power delivery over the points but that would be been only at about 30-45mph.

Mind you, a double wouldn't be too bad at 1,200hp gross, you'd have about 4/5 the performance of a 33 then.

Don't believe the supposed performance figures....when the donors for the 73/9 project were tested/benchmarked prior to rebuild they were only outputting around 400hp on diesel.

 

[hexagon789]

Don't believe the supposed performance figures....when the donors for the 73/9 project were tested/benchmarked prior to rebuild they were only outputting around 400hp on diesel.

Interesting - not quite even their listed continuous output on diesel which the diagram book gives as 430hp.

 

[nlogax]

Interesting - not quite even their listed continuous output on diesel which the diagram book gives as 430hp.

Sounds about right..I imagine those engines will have shed a few HP over the previous fifty years of their life even with intermittent use versus third rail.

 

[montyburns56]

Here's a picture of a 40 on Sunday drag at Kidsgrove with a 87+MK3s in tow.

Class 40 Diesel loco piloting 'dead' 87 through Bathpool Park Kidsgrove.

The poorer levels of train services on Sundays were very often compensated for by the overhead line power being switched off for maintenance. This produced DMUs on EMU diagrams, and what have now become known as 'drags'. Here an English Electric class 40 (EE type 4) diesel hauls a dead class 87...

flic.kr

 

[hexagon789]

Sounds about right..I imagine those engines will have shed a few HP over the previous fifty years of their life even with intermittent use versus third rail.

I always overlook that point, that as engines wear they 'lose' hp. I really should remember that from Top Gear when they had some second hand cars they bought tested and one lost more than half it's nominal rated power!

 

[Richard Scott]

I always overlook that point, that as engines wear they 'lose' hp. I really should remember that from Top Gear when they had some second hand cars they bought tested and one lost more than half it's nominal rated power!

Know someone who used to work on overhauling engines and he said they struggled to get 2000hp out of class 40 engines even in good condition, however the slight modification of adding intercoolers and turbo mods and the class 50 engine easily could reach its rated 2700hp.

 

[hexagon789]

Know someone who used to work on overhauling engines and he said they struggled to get 2000hp out of class 40 engines even in good condition, however the slight modification of adding intercoolers and turbo mods and the class 50 engine easily could reach its rated 2700hp.

I was informed that 47s, although nominally derated to 2,580hp, in reality only put out about 2,400hp from the engine.

Arguably makes some of their exploits more impressive, though when the CrossCountry ones were on their last legs you wonder how much power they were actually putting out!

 

[Richard Scott]

I was informed that 47s, although nominally derated to 2,580hp, in reality only put out about 2,400hp from the engine.

Arguably makes some of their exploits more impressive, though when the CrossCountry ones were on their last legs you wonder how much power they were actually putting out!

Rated power and actual power certainly show some discrepancies. In reality think there was little to choose between a 47 and a 45 in terms of power output despite the 47 having an on paper advantage of 80hp. When fitted with ETH the 47 was only 13 tons lighter than the 45 so performance gain minimal and possibly 45 was better due to more stages of field weakening. In my observations when dabbled in timing and monitoring performance 50s were way ahead of 47s on same line/schedule so likely the EE unit was close to or on rating and Sulzer possibly lower than rating? Although remember someone saying 50030 was a bit tired and only producing around 2200hp towards the end, this did show as wasn't a great performer.

 

[hexagon789]

Rated power and actual power certainly show some discrepancies. In reality think there was little to choose between a 47 and a 45 in terms of power output despite the 47 having an on paper advantage of 80hp. When fitted with ETH the 47 was only 13 tons lighter than the 45 so performance gain minimal and possibly 45 was better due to more stages of field weakening. In my observations when dabbled in timing and monitoring performance 50s were way ahead of 47s on same line/schedule so likely the EE unit was close to or on rating and Sulzer possibly lower than rating? Although remember someone saying 50030 was a bit tired and only producing around 2200hp towards the end, this did show as wasn't a great performer.

I have heard more than one ex-driver say they felt a good 45 had the edge over a 47