• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

dp21

Member
Joined
10 May 2017
Messages
358
If it's for cascade reasons, then could the DfT be specifying that all new EMUs be capable of running at 100mph or higher?

I wouldn't be surprised. I'd be interested to hear if someone is able to find out the concrete reasoning.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,267
If it's for cascade reasons, then could the DfT be specifying that all new EMUs be capable of running at 100mph or higher?

All recent Bombardier EMUs have been either 100 mph or even 110 mph. It'll be standardisation of traction packages, nothing to see here.

It's the Crossrail units that are the oddballs, they'll be 90 mph on the GW reliefs, when 100 may have been a better choice with hindsight.

But I suggest that as the fleet is sized just to replace the 455s, 456s, 458s, and 707s roughly one for one why would they ever need to be used away from the suburban area outside of major perturbation?
 

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,492
But I suggest that as the fleet is sized just to replace the 455s, 456s, 458s, and 707s roughly one for one why would they ever need to be used away from the suburban area outside of major perturbation?

Peak-time trains to Southampton? They can be very crowded until around Southampton Central and Southampton Airport Parkway. I was on a 444 once heading west from Woking and people were standing wherever they could.

Where do the trains on Waterloo-Portsmouth runs really empty out at?
 

Feathers44

Member
Joined
12 Aug 2014
Messages
350
I wasn't talking about the 707s, I was talking about the existing fleet.

Then can we do that elsewhere and stick with the discussion of the new fleet here please? (I'm getting a bit jaded on every thread being taken over by 'what goes where' discussion).
 

godfreycomplex

Established Member
Joined
23 Jun 2016
Messages
1,296
So what cascades do people think will happen as a result?

Everything in the morning and evening peaks that isn't already 10 or 12 (except possibly the Aldershot-Ascot-Waterloo services; which may well join with/divide from a Reading at Ascot but that's hearsay for the moment) will be. That's the main priority
455s out; not necessarily for scrap; maybe diesel; maybe the Valleys
456s out; back to the pit of Hades from whence they came
458s out; probably Southeastern (I've heard Tunbridge Wells/Hastings rumours)
707s out; there's much speculation on here as to what'll happen to them; which may or may not include a pantograph; we quite simply don't know at this stage.
What's more interesting is the speculation as to what'll end up where. It may not necessarily be a straight replacement of the fleets above.
 
Last edited:

dp21

Member
Joined
10 May 2017
Messages
358
So what cascades do people think will happen as a result?

I'm suspecting 455/456s to the bin, 458s to maybe southeastern for a bit (I can't see them investing in pan wells but who know) and 707s I can almost see them bolting pans on and could end up anywhere really.

Alternatively the "455 Flex" programme could, pardon the expression, gain traction?

It's quite a tough one.
 

physics34

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
3,681
So what cascades do people think will happen as a result?

Lol... discussed a few times on other threads.

The 455s might be set for bi-mode modifications....
Also rumours Southern were looking to replace their older 455s with SWTs newer ones

456s no rumours

707s have slso been rumoured to be looked at for Southern

458s could be of interest to southeastern.

All pure speculation...except the the bi-mode idea.

Lol..see above
 

dp21

Member
Joined
10 May 2017
Messages
358
Then can we do that elsewhere and stick with the discussion of the new fleet here please? (I'm getting a bit jaded on every thread being taken over by 'what goes where' discussion).

Apologies, yes probably a good shout.
 

godfreycomplex

Established Member
Joined
23 Jun 2016
Messages
1,296
Peak-time trains to Southampton? They can be very crowded until around Southampton Central and Southampton Airport Parkway. I was on a 444 once heading west from Woking and people were standing wherever they could.

Where do the trains on Waterloo-Portsmouth runs really empty out at?

Last standees usually get off at Haslemere (although they've usually replaced the standees getting off at Guildford)
 
Last edited:

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,267
I wasn't talking about the 707s, I was talking about the existing fleet.

They've been done to death as well. Do we really need to go over it again? There's apparently a 458 to Southeastern move possible, and a 455 DEMU conversion. But it's all been discussed ever since the First Group 'all change' decision was announced in March...
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,267
Peak-time trains to Southampton?

You really are clutching at straws here. Extra capacity towards Southampton could more easily be provided by cascaded 450s following the 442 introduction.

Why would there be spare Aventras available in the peaks if they are running the 4 tph Readings, 4 tph Windsors, and all the existing suburban services?
 

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,492
You really are clutching at straws here. Extra capacity towards Southampton could more easily be provided by cascaded 450s following the 442 introduction.

Why would there be spare Aventras available in the peaks if they are running the 4 tph Readings, 4 tph Windsors, and all the existing suburban services?

We don't yet know:

  • If there's the option of a follow-on order (inc numbers and configuration)
  • We don't really know what the crush load capacity will be compared with 450s
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,267
We don't yet know:

  • If there's the option of a follow-on order (inc numbers and configuration)
  • We don't really know what the crush load capacity will be compared with 450s

The DfT PIXC rules don't really allow for crush loaded suburban stock operating to Southampton.

I see that back in 2014 you were asking why 458/5s shouldn't be used to Weymouth, and about fitting pantographs to 458/5s . Do you never read any answers?
 

47802

Established Member
Joined
8 Oct 2013
Messages
3,455
My feeling is completely the reverse! The look of the front end is diabolical!

Well Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. A lot of people don't seem to like the 345's but I think they look fairly good I think probably they could be a bit better around the bottom fairing more like the Anglia units, and I guess we will see if there will be a change of shape to the cab as these images suggest.

But at the end the day its not really that important is it the main thing people want is to get them from A to B on time.

Bombardier will certainly be busy over the next 3 years.
 

dp21

Member
Joined
10 May 2017
Messages
358
Just a close up from twitter. First time attempting to attach so hopefully that's worked. Interesting that the headlights appear to resemble those on the GA/LO units.


SWT Aventra.jpg
 

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,492
The DfT PIXC rules don't really allow for crush loaded suburban stock operating to Southampton.

I see that back in 2014 you were asking why 458/5s shouldn't be used to Weymouth, and about fitting pantographs to 458/5s . Do you never read any answers?

Try to keep up with events:roll: Since 2014 we've had a few thing s happen which everyone would have said would never happen:

  • Conversion of LU d-stock to DEMUs
  • Proposal of conversion of class 319s to DMUs
  • Class 442s retuning to the SWTs
  • SWTs getting rid of the 458s (after conversions) and 455s (after re-tractioning)
  • Upcoming re-tractioning of the 442s

Just because something would never have happened in 2014, doesn't mean that it might not happen now;)
 

physics34

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
3,681
This report

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...750-emu-cars-for-south-western-franchise.html


says the new trains will have 2+2 seating. Another report I saw - but now I can't find it again! - said the 46% increase would be in "capacity" but didn't specifically say "seats". If it's 2+2 seating there will be more room for people to stand.

once again comes down to the quality of seating. they of course will be ironing board-ish, but the seat bases need to be more comfortable
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
once again comes down to the quality of seating. they of course will be ironing board-ish, but the seat bases need to be more comfortable

Well at least we wont get F Great Eastern banging on for pages on end about not being informed seat pitch ;)
 

dp21

Member
Joined
10 May 2017
Messages
358
once again comes down to the quality of seating. they of course will be ironing board-ish, but the seat bases need to be more comfortable

I don't know how much is public domain but I know the RSSB are leading or about to start leading a project looking at seat comfort as it is widely acknowledged that to meet the current fire and other safety standards the seats are becoming rock hard.

Hopefully this project will be able to produce outcomes which do have a tangible output and maybe even in time for these trains, who knows.

Having seen the Stadler mock-ups (I'm yet to visit it but should be soon) the seats seem a little better than those on the 700s and latest Electrostars so hopefully there are alternatives but given that Bombardier seem to prefer these ironing boards I would have to guess that these will likely return...

Saying that, the current 455 seats aren't exactly a vision in comfort either.
 

Fincra5

Established Member
Joined
6 Jun 2009
Messages
2,486
Lol... discussed a few times on other threads.

The 455s might be set for bi-mode modifications....
Also rumours Southern were looking to replace their older 455s with SWTs newer ones

456s no rumours

707s have slso been rumoured to be looked at for Southern

458s could be of interest to southeastern.

All pure speculation...except the the bi-mode idea.

Lol..see above

707's to SN would make a good choice for the 10 car Metro System... Can displace the 455's and maybe release some 377s to help SE with 12 car metro.

But to these new trains. I thinkt he front design is quite pleasing compared to the current 2 Aventra designs!
 

theageofthetra

On Moderation
Joined
27 May 2012
Messages
3,504
I just read elsewhere that they are not going to be of a walkthrough design. This seems daft as it reduces capacity and creates wheelchair evacuation issues which a walkthrough design eliminates.
 

Suraggu

Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
964
Location
The Far North
The leasing company have stated it looks highly likely the Class 456 will be sent to the scrapman once withdrawn by SWT.

The two bidders for the new stock was Bombardier and Siemens, but when Siemens announced rail manufacturing job cuts that was the biggest outsider knowledge it was not going to them.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
If it's for cascade reasons, then could the DfT be specifying that all new EMUs be capable of running at 100mph or higher?

It's more likely to be the Euro-certification process, which is now set at 190km/h for EMUs (=118mph).
Aventras (and all the other new designs) will go through this process.
The trains can then be configured/geared for lower speeds if necessary.
It's all about TSI compliance, which gives you a "go anywhere" cross-border capability.
 

Top