Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[Domh245]

OK was tongue in cheek but there is too much emphasis on software controlling everything in the train (oh actually everything) and as a result they've massively complicated the testing and commissioning process. Also the oversight of Bombardier has been abysmal with the level of issues being quoted above suggests a lousy management of the software build. However, these are allowed out on the mainline so traction, braking and safety systems clearly work at a satisfactory level so what are the issues.

The main issue seems to be Bombardier (Alstom) rather than the use of software as a concept! Other manufacturers (even the much maligned CAF) don't seem to be suffering the same way Derby is.

I'm also curious to see what the issues actually are. Like you say, based on the fact that units are out and about, they clearly work at a basic level, I cannot help but wonder how many of the issues actually boil down to "train built exactly to poorly specified spec". There'll inevitably be quite a few "snags" where the product doesn't meet expectations or spec, but things like the cabs being unacceptable must have fingers pointed at whoever specified the trains (presumably, First Group) - I'd be frankly amazed if that's something that Bombardier were given complete free reign over.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The main issue seems to be Bombardier (Alstom) rather than the use of software as a concept! Other manufacturers (even the much maligned CAF) don't seem to be suffering the same way Derby is.

I'm also curious to see what the issues actually are. Like you say, based on the fact that units are out and about, they clearly work at a basic level, I cannot help but wonder how many of the issues actually boil down to "train built exactly to poorly specified spec". There'll inevitably be quite a few "snags" where the product doesn't meet expectations or spec, but things like the cabs being unacceptable must have fingers pointed at whoever specified the trains (presumably, First Group) - I'd be frankly amazed if that's something that Bombardier were given complete free reign over.

There clones of 710's other than cab redesign so Bombardier team as was must have good handle on what the niggles were with those to be able to get on top of them as they were being built. The 720's once service introduction started set off quite well but they've stalled on new diagrams for some months and indications are its a reliability issue with them but exactly what isn't in the public domain either.

One for Captain Deltic to tap into his informed sources.

 

[James James]

OK was tongue in cheek but there is too much emphasis on software controlling everything in the train (oh actually everything) and as a result they've massively complicated the testing and commissioning process. Also the oversight of Bombardier has been abysmal with the level of issues being quoted above suggests a lousy management of the software build. However, these are allowed out on the mainline so traction, braking and safety systems clearly work at a satisfactory level so what are the issues.

It's not so much a problem caused by software in and of itself, but rather more likely: understaffed teams, and perhaps ineffective software engineering practices. And when it comes to writing software that controls hardware, I can't imagine being a remotely situated software team makes things all that easy - communicating with remote teams is tricky enough when you're just dealing with software to software interfaces.

So in a way you're right: writing good software indeed isn't so easy - but you'd probably run into similar issues when interfacing hardware systems to each other if the teams that produced them didn't have enough resources and obstacles to communication.

Just look at Bombardier's botched delivery of the Class 4758 (Talent 3) units to ÖBB...and the Talent 2s to various operators in Germany.

And the Twindexx's in both Germany and Switzerland. Hard to find many manufacturers with a similarly long list.

 

[hwl]

It's not so much a problem caused by software in and of itself, but rather more likely: understaffed teams, and perhaps ineffective software engineering practices. And when it comes to writing software that controls hardware, I can't imagine being a remotely situated software team makes things all that easy - communicating with remote teams is tricky enough when you're just dealing with software to software interfaces.

So in a way you're right: writing good software indeed isn't so easy - but you'd probably run into similar issues when interfacing hardware systems to each other if the teams that produced them didn't have enough resources and obstacles to communication.



And the Twindexx's in both Germany and Switzerland. Hard to find many manufacturers with a similarly long list.

The problems started when Bombardier:
a) opened the Bangalore software office
b) decided to completely rewrite Mitrac etc. for controlling equipment items using "network" controlled interface architecture (Aventra, Talent 3 etc)

Both around the same time so hard to separate a) / b) / both.

 

[Nogoohwell]

The issues cant be too bad as the units are out daily and have been for nearly a year since 002 was delivered for testing.
You will never remove software faults, its just impossible, all you can do is test and fix what you find and reach a happy balance between the bugs you can live with and those you can't.

Despite what others are saying about how identical these trains are to others, the rails they run on, the voltage (pretty sketchy in places), signaling and other rolling stock in operation are unique. All of these can have an effect on the 701 or on other units in area. This is a big change for the region and I'm bloody surprised that the power supply can cope TBH. Be interesting to see what would happen if you had a 700, a pair of 701's and a 450 pull out of Wimbledon at the same time.....

Dont forget the plastic pigs came back to SWR and were causing problems around Wimbledon?

As a commuter stuck on 455's, I cant wait to have a new train with aircon, USB sockets and adequate crash protection.

 

[Meerkat]

As a commuter stuck on 455's, I cant wait to have a new train with aircon, USB sockets and adequate crash protection.

And a toilet!

 

[Roast Veg]

The problems started when Bombardier:
a) opened the Bangalore software office
b) decided to completely rewrite Mitrac etc. for controlling equipment items using "network" controlled interface architecture (Aventra, Talent 3 etc)

Both around the same time so hard to separate a) / b) / both.

Oh dear...

 

[59CosG95]

Oh dear...

I can't think of a better lesson for companies who don't heed the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mantra...

 

[43096]

The problems started when Bombardier:
a) opened the Bangalore software office
b) decided to completely rewrite Mitrac etc. for controlling equipment items using "network" controlled interface architecture (Aventra, Talent 3 etc)

Both around the same time so hard to separate a) / b) / both.

The general view I have heard from those dealing with Bombardier (as was) is that a) was the bigger part of the problem.

 

[fgwrich]

I can't think of a better lesson for companies who don't heed the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mantra...

I wonder if the new management (by which I mean Alstom) will bring new changes / a more closer to the operations approach?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The issues cant be too bad as the units are out daily and have been for nearly a year since 002 was delivered for testing.
You will never remove software faults, its just impossible, all you can do is test and fix what you find and reach a happy balance between the bugs you can live with and those you can't.

Despite what others are saying about how identical these trains are to others, the rails they run on, the voltage (pretty sketchy in places), signaling and other rolling stock in operation are unique. All of these can have an effect on the 701 or on other units in area. This is a big change for the region and I'm bloody surprised that the power supply can cope TBH. Be interesting to see what would happen if you had a 700, a pair of 701's and a 450 pull out of Wimbledon at the same time.....

Dont forget the plastic pigs came back to SWR and were causing problems around Wimbledon?

As a commuter stuck on 455's, I cant wait to have a new train with aircon, USB sockets and adequate crash protection.

701's have to be able to deal with voltage variation from 450v to 900V DC and the 710's work fine on the Watford DC which is much weaker system. The MITRAC traction inverters have already been certified to be compatible with a wide variety of track circuits across the national network.

Note Wimbledon Substation has four rectifiers and can easily cope with that combination of train departures.

The problems with the 442's was the control equipment was simple but quite crude and when the motors went into weak field you got a big spike of current (you were alright on a 12 car CIGs etc as the probability of all three units doing it simultaneously was low) and this impressed the same spike on the traction return system and saturated vulnerable single rail track circuits (used through S&C) so they right side failed causing a revert to red situation. Inverter drives use software (that works!) to ensure maximum current isn't exceeded so isn't an issue.

455's are pretty strong compared to what ran before it witness the terrible C.Jcn crash but i definitely get your point about aircon as i travelled on 319s for years great for 8 months of the year but not good in the summer.

 

[hwl]

The general view I have heard from those dealing with Bombardier (as was) is that a) was the bigger part of the problem.

That is what I had been hearing too but didn't want to fully discount some of it resulting from a complete re-write or derive any parallels from the Mrs's struggles with her similarly located offshore software teams.

 

[norbitonflyer]

As a commuter stuck on 455's, I cant wait to have a new train with aircon, USB sockets and adequate crash protection.

What makes you think the Mark-3 based 455s have inadequate crash protection? As far as I am aware only three vehicles of the 150/210/455/456/317-322 family have been damaged in accidents badly enough to write them off - one vehicle each from 150209,150212 and 455913 - the last as the result of an aerial bombardment by a 26 ton mixer lorry.

 

[43096]

What makes you think the Mark-3 based 455s have inadequate crash protection? As far as I am aware only three vehicles of the 150/210/455/456/317-322 family have been damaged in accidents badly enough to write them off - one vehicle each from 150209,150212 and 455913 - the last as the result of an aerial bombardment by a 26 ton mixer lorry.

You can add a vehicle from 317301 and four vehicles from 321418/420 to the list of write-offs. Replacements were constructed using the same vehicle numbers.

 

[WarrenTManager]

There was a second 317 DTS 77048 After a class 45 hit the original and wrote it off when nigh on new. And some 321 vehicles also had to be built after the Watford crash 1996. I think 321420 is pseudo new vehicles with the numbers of vehicles written off

What makes you think the Mark-3 based 455s have inadequate crash protection? As far as I am aware only three vehicles of the 150/210/455/456/317-322 family have been damaged in accidents badly enough to write them off - one vehicle each from 150209,150212 and 455913 - the last as the result of an aerial bombardment by a 26 ton mixer lorry.

 

[AlexNL]

I saw the following tweet by the Anon SWR Team Twitter account:

Hello everyone,

News on the class 701's, SWR are definitely considering replacing them with new trains and rumour has it they may be Class 700's or Class 707's (oh the irony).

442s replaced by 458s.
707s replaced by 701s replaced by 707s

Anon Team

Messroom gossip? Or is there more to it?

 

[samuelmorris]

I'll believe it when i see it!

 

[XAM2175]

That many incorrectly-used possessive apostrophes ought to be enough to automatically discredit it.

 

[RealTrains07]

I saw the following tweet by the Anon SWR Team Twitter account:



Messroom gossip? Or is there more to it?

I read somewhere a while back that Siemens has finished with the Desiro City platform? Anyone know different?

 

[444045]

Speaking with an SWR driver today and he told me that 701's are going to Bournemouth Depot for further mods, before they are accepted by SWR, infact one was due to be moved today but it got cancelled.

U.701029 was out on test today from Eastleigh Depot.

 

[py_megapixel]

I read somewhere a while back that Siemens has finished with the Desiro City platform? Anyone know different?

Siemens have been happy in the past to build units to an old spec to fit operator requirements even if it's a platform they wouldn't usually offer (see the follow on 350s, and the 380s which are sort of a hybrid of 350 and Desiro-City)

But let's not get ahead of ourselves here - this is, after all, nothing more than an unsubstantiated rumour.

 

[Nogoohwell]

What makes you think the Mark-3 based 455s have inadequate crash protection? As far as I am aware only three vehicles of the 150/210/455/456/317-322 family have been damaged in accidents badly enough to write them off - one vehicle each from 150209,150212 and 455913 - the last as the result of an aerial bombardment by a 26 ton mixer lorry.

Standards have significantly changed now for crash worthiness since the 80's. Think we would all agree the 390's survived pretty well in a high speed crash but would not pass current tests, hence why there are no new orders from Avanti.

I saw the following tweet by the Anon SWR Team Twitter account:



Messroom gossip? Or is there more to it?

Utter crap IMO. With the skills in the train building industry in this country, you could take that entire fleet and change the computer system or whatever the problem is in the space of a year. As we have proved time and again with old stock, we can mod and fix anything.

Alternative is convert them to loco hauled coaching stock Would love to see a 37 power out of Waterloo dragging a 701

 

[swt_passenger]

Utter crap IMO. With the skills in the train building industry in this country, you could take that entire fleet and change the computer system or whatever the problem is in the space of a year. As we have proved time and again with old stock, we can mod and fix anything.

Unless it’s a 442, apparently…

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Utter crap IMO. With the skills in the train building industry in this country, you could take that entire fleet and change the computer system or whatever the problem is in the space of a year. As we have proved time and again with old stock, we can mod and fix anything.

I thought the Aventra software issues were Bombardier-wide and not just confined to the UK - hardly anything about a modern train is UK-specific.
Alstom ought to be able to bring its significant pre-merger software resources to the problem, though it might take time.
Alstom themselves talk about "challenging projects in backlog" in their first quarterly report after merger.

Pendolinos and Coradias are still being delivered by Alstom - just not to the UK.

 

[nlogax]

I saw the following tweet by the Anon SWR Team Twitter account:



Messroom gossip? Or is there more to it?

It sounds like SWR staff attempt at comedy. Not even remotely feasible.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Speaking with an SWR driver today and he told me that 701's are going to Bournemouth Depot for further mods, before they are accepted by SWR, infact one was due to be moved today but it got cancelled.

U.701029 was out on test today from Eastleigh Depot.

Well that's unlikely to be software related and the fact is they are allowed to undertake test runs on their own suggest these aren't fundamental issues related to the traction, braking and safety systems. Perhaps the TCMS system is generating too many alarms and warnings that there is risk of driver distraction accepting and dealing with them.

 

[theking]

Why did SWR need a bespoke class?

Why couldn't they have just used 710/720's? Why a whole brand new cab?

 

[Bigfoot]

Why did SWR need a bespoke class?

Why couldn't they have just used 710/720's? Why a whole brand new cab?

Covered many times in this thread. All to do with passenger loading and door positions being the same be it 2x5 or 1x10

 

[hwl]

Well that's unlikely to be software related and the fact is they are allowed to undertake test runs on their own suggest these aren't fundamental issues related to the traction, braking and safety systems. Perhaps the TCMS system is generating too many alarms and warnings that there is risk of driver distraction accepting and dealing with them.

The early units are all getting drivers desk modifications.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The early units are all getting drivers desk modifications.

Thats an ergonomic issue not software related but is that BMO is doing?